Catholics accused of worshiping Mary

[deb1]

Singinbeauty:

But see, that is not worship… we don’t pray to these statues or use them as concentration objects when we pray to who they represent. We don’t have songs we specifically sing about them or to them. We don’t bow to them. And we don’t tend to make pilgramages to them. If touched we don’t expect ourselves to be healed either. That is the difference.

Taking out the words ‘pray to statues’ (Which again we do not do) my response to the rest of your post is so? So, Catholics have a beautiful, deep, myserious religion that has all sorts of methods for us to delve into a deeper relationship with Christ. One of the aspects that impresses me most about Catholism-as a convert-is the fact that it all five senses are used to know GOd. Everything from the smell of burning candles, the feel of rosary beads, the taste of communion, the statues etc uses our physcial senses to bring us closer to God.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Knight4God:

I’m beginning to see….

Alright so far, defining worship is being based on outward acts. Some outward acts ae “worship” and others are “honor”. And the lines between the two are different for Protestants and Catholics.

Cultural Forms is the key:

I think this is the issue, putting to much emphasis in one aspect of the cultural dimensions. There are three main dimensions of a culture; a) what is perceivable b) what is organizational and c) what is conceptual.

What is perceivable are the various “forms” and outward aspects of a culture. This would be on the surface and displayed through such things as “shaking hands means I greet you”. This varies from place to place. Like a language, two languages can have similar sounding words and mean two different things, the words themselves are cultural forms used by the culture to express its deeper aspects (the conceivable dimension). Perceivable dimension also includes cultural artifacts (pens, paper, laptops, totem poles) and ceremonies. Also words such as “pray” so We cannot say that when someone uses the word “pray” they mean worship, they can mean whatever they want to mean by it, and it is an accepted concept that the word carries not the idea of worship, but the idea of request.

Therefore by very definition you cannot judge what defines “worship” and “to honor” merely by outward act. We cannot say “singing a song” is universally “worship” (even consistently, do we not sing songs to girlfriends?) Nor can we say that burning a candle to an object is worship by the very act itself. This is an outward expression that means something deeper. The question with this then is what the conceptual meaning behind the act is.

If a Catholic only “looks like they are worshipping” and we have no evidence that they are “in fact worshipping” Then we cannot use their cultural outward forms to make the decision on how far is too far. (i.e. just because you see them burn candles, sing sons, make pilgrimages, ect.)

So in the end, Catholics don’t worship Mary because they say they don’t. The issue for Catholics is to define what exactly on the conceptual level is the difference between honor and worship.

This conversation is just talking past each other, because we are debating the perceivable level, which is highly subjective and not the conceptual level where universal Scriptural norms lie.

I actually think it is even simpler than that…biasness.

 

[Mickey]

Singinbeauty:

we don’t pray to these statues… We don’t bow to them. And we don’t tend to make pilgramages to them… If touched we don’t expect ourselves to be healed either.

You see singinbeauty—this ties in with one of your other threads. It is usually at this point in time when a Catholic will jump in and say:
**“Why do you guys worship the Bible”? **

 

[Singinbeauty]

In light of the confusion on what is worship and what is not, I am thinking that this may be why God commanded us NOT to make ANY graven images.

 

[deb1]

Singinbeauty:

In light of the confusion on what is worship and what is not, I am thinking that this may be why God commanded us NOT to make ANY graven images.

What is your definition of a graven image? In Kings chapter six, Solomon builds two large, gold covered angels to place in the temple. Was he creating a graven image? If it is just ‘graven images’ themselves that bother you, do you think that we should do away with any artisitc depiction from real life? Isn’t this what muslims do?

No we should not create statues to worship but as has been repeatedly pointed out, Catholics do not worship statues.

By the way, I personally am not confused as to what is worship and what is not.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Singinbeauty:

In light of the confusion on what is worship and what is not, I am thinking that this may be why God commanded us NOT to make ANY graven images.

(cf. Deut. 5:8) - God’s commandment “thou shall not make a graven image” is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

(cf. Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31) - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

(cf. Num. 21:8-9) - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

(cf. I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67) - Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

 

[Singinbeauty]

deb1:

By the way, I personally am not confused as to what is worship and what is not.

And I am happy for you. I am not saying that it is good or bad. Or that catholics DO or DO NOT worship statues but as you can see there are MANY people on here who cannot agree on what is worship and what is not. Should we take your word as the end all in this however many centuries old arguement? That just because Deb1 knows what is and isn’t worship we should listen and leave it at that? I don’t think that is going to happen anytime soon.

All I was saying in my statement above is that God probably knew that there would be confusion in people’s ideas of what worship is and that may have been His reasoning behind His commandment. In my opinion, bowing towards an image of any kind to pray to who that represents is a form of worship. But that is just me. That is why I don’t do it.

 

[E.E.N.S]

deb1:

By the way, I personally am not confused as to what is worship and what is not.

Nor am I.

 

[scm]

I admit that I have not read this whole thread, but I have an observation that concerned me. I was all convinced that true Catholics do not worship Mary, but then I was at a Catholic funeral recently and the priest said “It is through Mary that we come to Jesus”.
Sure this is not indicating worship, but it does seem to me to be a bit messed up.
Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
He did not go on to say, “but you have to get to me through my mother.”

We have a direct relationship with Jesus, and through Him, the Father. What was this priest talking about?

 

[E.E.N.S]

scm:

I admit that I have not read this whole thread, but I have an observation that concerned me. I was all convinced that true Catholics do not worship Mary, but then I was at a Catholic funeral recently and the priest said “It is through Mary that we come to Jesus”.
Sure this is not indicating worship, but it does seem to me to be a bit messed up.
Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
He did not go on to say, “but you have to get to me through my mother.”

We have a direct relationship with Jesus, and through Him, the Father. What was this priest talking about?

He was refering that God didn’t choose to give Jesus directly to us, it was His will that we received Jesus through Mary.

 

[deb1]

Well, it would simplify matters a bit.

 

[deb1]

scm:

I admit that I have not read this whole thread, but I have an observation that concerned me. I was all convinced that true Catholics do not worship Mary, but then I was at a Catholic funeral recently and the priest said “It is through Mary that we come to Jesus”.
Sure this is not indicating worship, but it does seem to me to be a bit messed up.
Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
He did not go on to say, “but you have to get to me through my mother.”

We have a direct relationship with Jesus, and through Him, the Father. What was this priest talking about?

Mary is the woman who bore Jesus, so yes, in a sense it is through Mary that we have Jesus.

 

[Singinbeauty]

deb1:

Well, it would simplify matters a bit.

I don’t think that is going to happen anytime soon since you are a mere human. But thanx for trying!

 

[djrakowski]

Singinbeauty:

Should we take your word as the end all in this however many centuries old arguement?

Well, we should at least take the Catholic’s word for their church’s use of the terms ‘worship’ and ‘prayer’ and stop trying to impose a non-Catholic understanding on them. Simply because others don’t understand the practice, or insist on imposing their definitions into the culture of Catholic worship doesn’t invalidate the practice.

 

[Singinbeauty]

djrakowski:

Well, we should at least take the Catholic’s word for the Catholic use of the term ‘worship.’ Simply because others don’t understand the practice, or insist on imposing their definitions into the culture of Catholic worship doesn’t invalidate the Catholic worship.

Like I said, I just don’t do it because my heart and soul convicts me against it. Again, that’s just me. If you feel the need for it… by all means go for it. I am not here to impose my beliefs or definitions on anyone. Just to tell my side of the argument.

 

[Orionthehunter]

scm:

I admit that I have not read this whole thread, but I have an observation that concerned me. I was all convinced that true Catholics do not worship Mary, but then I was at a Catholic funeral recently and the priest said “It is through Mary that we come to Jesus”.
Sure this is not indicating worship, but it does seem to me to be a bit messed up.
Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
He did not go on to say, “but you have to get to me through my mother.”

We have a direct relationship with Jesus, and through Him, the Father. What was this priest talking about?

I am very sure that this is being taken out of context. While not having been there, I can lay out many scenarios where in context this would be said. For example, at a funeral, it would be very understandable for the Priest to draw our attention to Mary and reflect on how she bore the impending death, his crucifixion and finally death. And then upon reflection of Mary’s experience, it becomes easy for us to see God’s plan in the loss of the loved one.

The longer I read threads and posts by Protestants in this forum, the more I’m struck by how quick so many Protestants are to rely on short bromides/quotes as if they speak some all-encompassing truth without reflecting on the quote totally in context. It is no longer any wonder to me why we have 20,000-40,000 different Protestant denominations in the world today.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Singinbeauty:

Like I said, I just don’t do it because my heart and soul convicts me against it. Again, that’s just me. If you feel the need for it… by all means go for it. I am not here to impose my beliefs or definitions on anyone. Just to tell my side of the argument.

It has nothing to do with NEED. It’s just the fullness and beauty of our Faith. These beautiful things lift our minds and hearts to God (all of our senses actually.) There is nothing at all wrong with any of these things (when in their proper perspective of course) and in fact, they are good in the sense that God gave us these ways so that we may more fully worship HIM.

 

[Church_Militant]

Just a question…Does anyone on here really think that we Catholics are goofy enough to confuse a statue or a saint with the almighty and ever-living God of the universe and worship it? :ehh:

 

[Singinbeauty]

E.E.N.S.:

It has nothing to do with NEED. It’s just the fullness and beauty of our Faith. These beautiful things lift our minds and hearts to God (all of our senses actually.) There is nothing at all wrong with any of these things (when in their proper perspective of course) and in fact, they are good in the sense that God gave us these ways so that we may more fully worship HIM.

And that is great FOR YOU. For me, I don’t need a statue or image of a human to focus on God. I can be on the edge of a cliff with the wind blowing in my face looking out to the sea (a creation of God not man ) and be totally in God’s presence. In fact I feel more in His presence and in full worship of Him in that place than in a church. Again, this is JUST ME. We all have different ways of worshipping God and I feel that if He is our focus He doesn’t care how we do it.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Orionthehunter:

The longer I read threads and posts by Protestants in this forum, the more I’m struck by how quick so many Protestants are to rely on short bromides/quotes as if they speak some all-encompassing truth without reflecting on the quote totally in context.

And many of us do this in our debates as well. However, the Catholic Faith does NOT do this. It combines the complete Word of God, written and oral (as St. Paul told us to do), the fullness of history, Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, the communion of saints, and all the beauties that God has allowed us to use to lift our minds and hearts toward heaven and to use all of our sense to worship God with our whole being.

Simply beautiful.