Catholics accused of worshiping Mary

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Singinbeauty:
And I am happy for you. I am not saying that it is good or bad. Or that catholics DO or DO NOT worship statues but as you can see there are MANY people on here who cannot agree on what is worship and what is not. Should we take your word as the end all in this however many centuries old arguement? That just because Deb1 knows what is and isn’t worship we should listen and leave it at that? I don’t think that is going to happen anytime soon.

All I was saying in my statement above is that God probably knew that there would be confusion in people’s ideas of what worship is and that may have been His reasoning behind His commandment. In my opinion, bowing towards an image of any kind to pray to who that represents is a form of worship. But that is just me. That is why I don’t do it.
If you don’t want to do it that is fine with us Catholics, but please don’t accuse those of us who want to kneel and pray before a statue of Mary of worshiping her. If we truely worshiped her would we not be committing a mortal sin to deny it?
 
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Singinbeauty:
I can be on the edge of a cliff with the wind blowing in my face looking out to the sea (a creation of God not man ) and be totally in God’s presence.
Uh-oh, are you worshiping the sea? 😃
 
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Singinbeauty:
And that is great FOR YOU. For me, I don’t need a statue or image of a human to focus on God. I can be on the edge of a cliff with the wind blowing in my face looking out to the sea (a creation of God not man ) and be totally in God’s presence. In fact I feel more in His presence and in full worship of Him in that place than in a church. Again, this is JUST ME. We all have different ways of worshipping God and I feel that if He is our focus He doesn’t care how we do it.
That’s good, you just touched on one of the points I was getting at…we use it all! I know exactly the feeling you are talking about, and it’s great! And it is also great in the blistering heat, the freezing cold, the rain, the snow, the change of seasons, day night…God paints the most beautiful pictures (His are interactive 😉 ), as well as in His pressence in adoration, or in the most intimate way Christ chose to give Himself to us while we are on this earth, in the Eucharist.

I don’t limit myself to just one [good] way to worship God, I use all that He has given us, especially through His Church.
 
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Singinbeauty:
And that is great FOR YOU. For me, I don’t need a statue or image of a human to focus on God. I can be on the edge of a cliff with the wind blowing in my face looking out to the sea (a creation of God not man ) and be totally in God’s presence. In fact I feel more in His presence and in full worship of Him in that place than in a church. Again, this is JUST ME. We all have different ways of worshipping God and I feel that if He is our focus He doesn’t care how we do it.
I have had moments like you describe myself. Being alone in the beauty of God’s handiwork-the outdoors-should cause you to feel his presence. Simply because I have a statue of the Virgen Mary does not mean that there is only one method for God to reach me. It isn’t an either or situation.
 
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Mickey:
Uh-oh, are you worshiping the sea? 😃
Oh good, a patronizing question… I have never gotten one of those before… :rolleyes:

The fact of the matter is, the sea represents, to me, one of God’s greatest mysteries here on earth. There is so much about it that sustains life here on land and yet it also has it’s own ecosystem and way of life below the surface. I don’t PRAY to the sea (now THAT would be rediculous) and it isn’t a form of concentration for me but it IS the place that I prefer because to me that is my calming place. It’s a place for me to talk to God. Not Mary, not the saints, but God. It is where I see God the clearest.
 
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deb1:
I have had moments like you describe myself. Being alone in the beauty of God’s handiwork-the outdoors-should cause you to feel his presence. Simply because I have a statue of the Virgen Mary does not mean that there is only one method for God to reach me. It isn’t an either or situation.
But I guess what I don’t understand is WHY or HOW you have to have a statue of the Virgin Mary in order to talk to God. This is my stumbling block. For you to pray to Mary doesn’t that take God out of the picture at least a little?
 
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Singinbeauty:
The fact of the matter is, the sea represents, to me, one of God’s greatest mysteries here on earth. There is so much about it that sustains life here on land and yet it also has it’s own ecosystem and way of life below the surface. I don’t PRAY to the sea (now THAT would be rediculous) and it isn’t a form of concentration for me but it IS the place that I prefer because to me that is my calming place. It’s a place for me to talk to God. Not Mary, not the saints, but God. It is where I see God the clearest.
I like what you said here, it reminds me of something that St. Louis de Montfort wrote:

"God the Father gathered all the waters together and called them the seas (maria). He gathered all his graces together and called them Mary (Maria). The great God has a treasury or storehouse full of riches in which he has enclosed all that is beautiful, resplendent, rare, and precious, even his own Son. This immense treasury is none other than Mary whom the saints call the “treasury of the Lord”. "
 
http://saints.oca.org/IconDirectory/xsm/greatfeasts/0806.Transfiguration.jpg

On the Mountain You were Transfigured, O Christ God,
And Your disciples beheld Your glory as far as they could see it;
So that when they would behold You crucified,
They would understand that Your suffering was voluntary,
And would proclaim to the world,
That You are truly the Radiance of the Father!


In the Eastern Catholic Tradition, we venerate icons. Icons are understood as windows into our next life of heavenly paradise. They also teach Scripture and Sacred Tradition from a pictorial aspect. In the days of early Christianity, when the multitudes were illiterate, icons were a valuable teaching tool–and they still are!
I thank God for giving us multiple ways to praise His Holy Name and to deepen our prayer and worship.
 
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deb1:
I mean no offense to the people that believe the above statement but I have always found the belief that we won’t care about the children and loved ones we leave behind to be very depressing. . . .
This reminded me of something from the writings of St. John of the Cross:
Mine are the heavens and mine is the earth. Mine are the nations, the just are mine, and mine the sinners. The angels are mine, and the Mother of God, and all things are mine; and God Himself is mine and for me, because Christ is mine and all for me.
What do you ask, then, and seek, my soul? Yours is all of this, and all is for you. Do not engage yourself in something less, nor pay heed to the crumbs which fall from your Father’s table. Go forth and exult in your Glory! Hide yourself in It and rejoice, and you will obtain the supplications of your heart./QUOTE] from “Prayer of a Soul Taken with Love”
 
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Singinbeauty:
Oh good, a patronizing question… I have never gotten one of those before… :rolleyes:
That was not my intention. I was trying to make a point. I apologize. When someone sculpts a statue or writes an icon, God has created the materials used for the statue or icon. God has also created the individual and has blessed them with talent.
You see, that is no less miraculous than the vastness of the ocean. You view the ocean and feel the breeze and close your eyes and pray. We view the statue or icon and remember the incarnation, or strong faith of a particular saint who sacrificed his/her life for Christ—and we pray.
 
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Singinbeauty:
But I guess what I don’t understand is WHY or HOW you have to have a statue of the Virgin Mary in order to talk to God. This is my stumbling block. For you to pray to Mary doesn’t that take God out of the picture at least a little?
Not in the least! It increases it tremendously. Explanation here is very close to futile (as it has been proven in this thread), but I know how I was before as well as after I became Catholic, and yet again after I started to have a devotion to the Mother of God. It’s not something that comes easily to some people, mostly due to biasness and pejudice, but that’s understandable I guess. And again, we don’t HAVE to have a statue (and many people don’t), but why not if it lifts the mind towards God? (It truly does. I cannot walk by a statue of ANY saint without thinking about God, heaven, the communion of saints, etc.) If you don’t like it for whatever reason, then don’t use it, but don’t worry about others who do like these things (so long as they are not worshipping the statue - which I don’t know ANYONE who does) because they bring people towards God.
 
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Singinbeauty:
But I guess what I don’t understand is WHY or HOW you have to have a statue of the Virgin Mary in order to talk to God. This is my stumbling block.

Uh we dont “have” to have a statue of mary to talk to god nor do we use the statue of mary to talk to god…
 
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Singinbeauty:
But I guess what I don’t understand is WHY or HOW you have to have a statue of the Virgin Mary in order to talk to God. This is my stumbling block. For you to pray to Mary doesn’t that take God out of the picture at least a little?
I’m gonna quote myself from below cuz I think it answers it…
Me!:
When I ask my friend to pray for me, usually they go home and pray for me and I go home and pray for me. However, sometimes, we sit right there and pray together. Some describe asking a Saint for intercession in the same way. As opposed to just asking for intercession, then going your seperate ways, it is described as a beautiful scene of yourself walking hand in hand with the Saint, approaching God’s “throne,” and asking humbly, “Oh Lord, will you do this for us?” It is such a beautiful thing to imagine so great a Christian love that a Saint equates our own needs with their’s. They could just ask God to answer a prayer for them, but no… no they ask, together with us, that He answer our prayer, a prayer for us, a prayer just as meaningful to them as to us. This love, this love that is the embodiment of Christ and the Spirit and all that is God Himself, so greatly touches His heart that our Lord cannot but answer our prayer in such respect for the beauty of it.
 
E.E.N.S.:
Not in the least! It increases it tremendously. Explanation here is very close to futile (as it has been proven in this thread), but I know how I was before as well as after I became Catholic, and yet again after I started to have a devotion to the Mother of God. It’s not something that comes easily to some people, mostly due to biasness and pejudice, but that’s understandable I guess. And again, we don’t HAVE to have a statue (and many people don’t), but why not if it lifts the mind towards God? (It truly does. I cannot walk by a statue of ANY saint without thinking about God, heaven, the communion of saints, etc.) If you don’t like it for whatever reason, then don’t use it, but don’t worry about others who do like these things (so long as they are not worshipping the statue - which I don’t know ANYONE who does) because they bring people towards God.
Yes. St Paul calls us to pray unceasingly. When I jump into my car after work, the chaos of the day is swirling through my mind. But then I look down at my dash and see a beautiful icon of our Savior Jesus Christ. I realize that the chaos of the day is meaningless. And I pray all the way home. 🙂
 
I found this to be interesting:

It is the conviction of the Church that every human being is assigned an angel of God to be his guardian, an angel who has as his task to “lead (us) to the place that (God) has prepared,” heaven. Not everyone listens attentively to their guardian angel, however, as he seeks to enlighten them through the voice of conscience to avoid sin, or gives them good inspirations to the love and service of God and neighbor. Certainly Padre Pio was one who did, from the earliest years of life, so that God granted him the vision not only of his own guardian angel but those of others. Many times it was through the guardian angel of a person that their need was brought to Padre Pio’s attention, who then prayed for that person.

One might ask, why would the angel bring the need to Padre Pio, rather than directly to God? First, people often sent their angel to Padre Pio to ask for prayer. The angels, for their part, like true friends were happy to perform this little service for their proteges, especially the ones who habitually listened to their guidance. Since the angel can do nothing contrary to the will of God, God Himself must have desired it, as well. As with the other forms of intercession and mediation acknowledged by the Church, God has ordained that the true magnificence of His own glory be shown through His working through creatures (angelic and human). As St. Paul noted, God chooses the weak to show up the strong (1 Cor. 1:27).
 
I submit that worship of Mary or of God is not the issue. And again the answer was, as it so often has been in the past, that devotion and honor to the Saints and the blessed Mother is different than the worship of God. It sometimes is explained that honoring the saints in Latin is called dulia and that this raised to a higher level is called hyperdulia in Latin when referring to Mary. But worship is called latria. This has to be explained that latria is not simply raising honoring to a more intense feeling but is different in kind.

A good place to begin to make the distinction between dulia and latria is to recognize what the difference is between clergies in some denominations that only have ministers and those that have priests. As you know, the distinction that makes all the difference is that priests offer a sense perceptible sacrifice as worship! We do not worship Mary and that is why our devotion and honor of her does not include sacrifice to her! That is all that makes dulia and hyperdulia different than latria. This distinction is not made in Protestant circles and that is why what they call “Worship Services” so closely resemble our Marian devotions, and hence their confusion.

But you will hear protests by some Protestants that Jesus was sacrificed once and for all and that we are not to sacrifice Jesus again. To that we can add an “Amen”. His sacrifice to the Father was and is the only suitable sacrificial worship that can be acceptable. We acknowledge that in the Doxology, “In Him, with Him, and through Him all glory and honor is Yours Almighty Father, forever and ever; Amen”. But what we have to consider is what the “WHAT” that is “In Him, with Him, and through Him etc."?

What is included in this once and for all sacrifice, is the sacrifice, the consecration, the dedication, of all that is us to Christ, to be in union with Him in His sacrifice in the worship of the Father in the Holy Spirit Who was our gift at Pentecost. This is our sacrifice offered at the “Offertory” of the Mass that we strive as pilgrims to complete before our last breath.

The bread and wine elements that are the sense perceptible gifts are a representation of all that is us and that is what the priest prays that God will take and make holy. In this incorporation into Christ the Word send to earth does not return to the Father empty handed. Otherwise a gift at Mass of what is a sorry excuse for bread and a bit of good wine alone would be vastly more insulting as a gift to God than if we were to brag that we gave a saintly grandmother a penny every tenth Christmas!

To paraphrase what Bp. Fulton Sheen once said, if the bread on the paten does not represent all that is tangible in your life, and if the wine does not represent all that is spiritual in your life - then you have no business at Mass! See Redemptionis Sacramentum chapter II paragraph 36 & 37 for the priesthood of the laity.

Didn’t some saint once refer to all this as, “The great exchange”?

This is all very critical today where the cultural pernicious secular drive is toward the pay-off - self fulfillment, self gratification, and personal gain. Sacrifice is not on the radar screen even in the perspective of love. But worship (adoration), and love without sacrifice is absurd. See the first paragraph in Rom 12: 1 and in newadvent.org/cathen/13309a.htm and the CCC #1368,
1369, & 2031.

In Dominicae Cenae we see, “Consequently, the celebrant, as minister of this sacrifice, is the authentic priest, performing – in virtue of the specific power of-sacred ordination – a true sacrificial act that brings creation back to God. Although all those who participate in the Eucharist do not confect the sacrifice as He does, they offer with Him, by virtue of the common priesthood, their own spiritual sacrifices represented by the bread and wine from the moment of their presentation at the altar. For this liturgical action, which takes a solemn form in almost all liturgies, has a “spiritual value and meaning.” The bread and wine become in a sense a symbol of all that the eucharistic assembly brings, on its own part, as an offering to God and offers spiritually.”

I have many other files on this subject as well.

We are left to wonder why this sense of self sacrifice is so absent in Catholic circles when it is so broadly and specifically emphasized in Catholic teaching.

This subject was most clearly written about in the book with the unfortunate title, “How To Get The Most Out Of The Eucharist” by Michael Dubruiel in the early chapters. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

“We are living in a time when we can no longer presume that if a person says that they believe in God that you can understand what they mean by that.” Fr Michael McDonagh

“Our country has gone insane because we have forgotten how to worship” Michael Cumbie
 
So “worship” is defined by sacrifice. And then honoring someone or something can be anything other then sacrifice. I think that can be a good start, I would wonder if there is not a deeper level?

Perhaps worship should be that which takes our highest allegiance. So that one honors parents by an allegiance to them, but does not worship them because our highest allegiance is to God. When a person either consciously or unconsciously swaps this allegiance hierarchy then they fall into blasphemy by worshipping creatures.

And going along with that anything that removes God’s glory and gives it to another. Then of course we need to define what we mean by “the glory of God”. I think this is his attributes, character and beautiful goodness. So ascribing omnipotence to Mary would be worshipping her, but to ascribe some level of finite spiritual power derived ultimately from God would not.

So then can we say a Catholic who has gone to far is one who has either:

a) Made a sacrifice to Mary, or either an object or themselves
b) Either knowingly or unknowingly placed Mary on a higher allegiance then God
c) Given her some aspect of God’s glory that belongs to God alone

??

Not that we can easily judge these in another, they are highly internal and more on a conceptual level, but that they maybe give guidelines for both Protestants and Catholics to discuss on whither any form of devotion or doctrine of Mariology falls into “Mariolotry”.?
 
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Knight4God:
So “worship” is defined by sacrifice. And then honoring someone or something can be anything other then sacrifice. I think that can be a good start, I would wonder if there is not a deeper level?

Perhaps worship should be that which takes our highest allegiance. So that one honors parents by an allegiance to them, but does not worship them because our highest allegiance is to God. When a person either consciously or unconsciously swaps this allegiance hierarchy then they fall into blasphemy by worshipping creatures.

And going along with that anything that removes God’s glory and gives it to another. Then of course we need to define what we mean by “the glory of God”. I think this is his attributes, character and beautiful goodness. So ascribing omnipotence to Mary would be worshipping her, but to ascribe some level of finite spiritual power derived ultimately from God would not.

So then can we say a Catholic who has gone to far is one who has either:

a) Made a sacrifice to Mary, or either an object or themselves
b) Either knowingly or unknowingly placed Mary on a higher allegiance then God
c) Given her some aspect of God’s glory that belongs to God alone

??

Not that we can easily judge these in another, they are highly internal and more on a conceptual level, but that they maybe give guidelines for both Protestants and Catholics to discuss on whither any form of devotion or doctrine of Mariology falls into “Mariolotry”.?
Not a few of our Protestant brothers and sisters seem to sincerely believe that Catholics DO place Mary on a higher level than God.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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Knight4God:
So “worship” is defined by sacrifice. And then honoring someone or something can be anything other then sacrifice. I think that can be a good start, I would wonder if there is not a deeper level?

Perhaps worship should be that which takes our highest allegiance. So that one honors parents by an allegiance to them, but does not worship them because our highest allegiance is to God. When a person either consciously or unconsciously swaps this allegiance hierarchy then they fall into blasphemy by worshipping creatures.

But that is the basis of my post. It is summed up in Rom 12: 1, "I urge you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, your spiritual worship. Our sacrifice has to cost us something or it is not worship but simply sentimentality no matter how intense. That sacrifice of ours is summed up with our bodies on the paten and our souls in the chalice during the Offeratory of the Mass. In this we say to Christ, “This is our bodies, this is our blood.” It is the dedication, the devotion, the consecratation of ourselves, our alligeance to the sacrificial cross of Jesus. If that is truly the case, then Christ says, “This is My body, and this is My blood.” In this we pick up our cross and follow Him.
 
Church Militant said:
4. Pilgrimages? Again…Americans flock to D.C. and visit all the monuments erected to Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson, and visit their homes.

AND have plenty of ritualistic ceremonies honoring them. Has anyone seen the changing of the gaurd at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier? They present wreaths of flowers to the tomb. In fact, many people place candles or flowers on graves, graves with statues on them, or pictures, and often they sit and talk to the person in that grave, knowing very well that the person is not really there. Are they talking to the stone? I don’t think so.
 
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