Catholics accused of worshiping Mary

[cheddarsox]

tkdnick:

Oh…day late and a dollar short again!

How am I supposed to defend my Mother with all these other wonderful people beating me to the punch?

You don’t need to “defend your Mother” because no one is attacking her. What is being questioned in IMPROPER devotions toward her. I would think that people with a true love for the Virgin would be the first to speak out against such!

Mary has a rightful place of honor.

Some people dishonor her by placing her first in their heart, devotion and worship, a place she herself would refuse. She points to Christ, but some do not heed her counsel. Instead they treat Mary as if she herself were divine and a goddess.

It is not my intent to dishonor Mary, but rather to address improper devotions toward her.

cheddar

 

[E.E.N.S]

Knight4God:

True, but there has to be a reason to believe something not explicit. And I’m arguing not only that it isn’t explicit, but that deduction from scripture would rule against it.

Citations of the ECF?

I will have to reply on monday when I get back in town and have my resources in front of me, but I will leave you with a couple of links with regards to the ECF and intercessory prayers of the saints.

staycatholic.com/ecf_intercession.htm

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

I will leave you with a teaser from the great biblical scholar, St. Jerome:
“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 A.D. 406]).

(I would however like you to cite where exactly in Scripture you believe that takes away the credibilty from this age-old tradition…(?)

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Singinbeauty:

I thought my post addressed that. If you have a TRUE faith you can see that by your works. Hence the obvious bad choice of the word ‘by-product’. I don’t know why this is tripping you up. Let me explain it a different way…

Our free will leads the choices we make. Free will basically means that neither God nor Man forces you to make certain choices. When faced with a decision we make the choice, whether good or bad, of what we feel we must make. Each path leads to a certain destination. Regarding Faith you are faced with MANY choices. Our free will lets us choose the faith we feel is the right path. God does not force us to choose Him. He will prod us and lead us but He won’t make us choose Him over another if that is not the choice we want to make. Right? Ok, so these choices, in regards to Faith, will affect our hearts in how God sees us. If we choose Him we will have a faith that urges us to do His perfect will. There is still free will, we can choose to ignore the Holy Spirit but, if we have TRUE faith that is hard to do as I am sure you know. If this is the case God can see that our hearts are truly for Him, alone. BUT if we choose another path that leads away from Him our hearts will reflect this and be hardened and He will see this also. Now, there are those who have chosen the path that leads away but for some reason, whether internal or external, they want to LOOK like a christian and will try to fool us and God by professing Him to be God of all BUT they don’t actually believe it. And that is evident by their fruits. Our works, or the things we do, are the FRUIT of our Faith.

Scripture specifically says that our works are the fruit of our LOVE:

John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Joh 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.

Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, If anyone loves me, he will keep my word

*Joh 14:24Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. *
**
**

**

Faith and love are NOT the same thing. One can have faith WITHOUT having love:

1 Cor. 13:2 if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1Co 13:13
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

In light of these scriptures, where do you believe God’s word speaks of our works being a fruit of our FAITH?

Also, where does God’s word talk about “true” faith? I know it talks about a dead, incomplete, useless faith, but where does it speak of “true” faith?

Please answer both of these questions in your next post. Thanks!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Knight4God:

Lazerlike42 makes a good point with the TV analogy, but answering your point. the fact that they are still localized and finite beings. So they could only focus on one at a time. Even with a form of communication transfer from earth.

(Again I believe I stated earlier it’s theoretically possible, but I find it unlikely)

This is certainly true of those of us IN the body, but where do you find scriptural evidence that this is necessarily true of those OUTSIDE the body? Why would they necessarily be subject to the constraints of time and space if they are outside of time and space with the Lord?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[E.E.N.S]

Knight4God:

Sure, I’d say that they move near instantly, they still must “move” in some sense. And Jesus’ resurrection body could apparently do the same and move through walls. And this would certainly help if a Saint was going to listen in on communication to them, but it would still not get around that they are localized, and while in heaven would not have a connection to earth, unless they knew you were talking to them and “transported” themselves there long enough to listen. Limiting it to only hearing is fine, but if they are localized spiritual entities in Heaven they would still need to be in some kind of range of the person talking and be able to process all those communications (like how I switched from the controversial word ‘prayer’?) at once. When you research the others do post them then

You should do some reading on St. Pio (for example), and how he communicated with guardian angels, and his ability to be in different places at the same time (bilocation.)

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

I was listening to Catholic Answers Live today and the topic of Mary worship came up. The guest on the show made such a good point and I’d like to share it.

Those of us who understand true devotion to Mary understand that it ONLY brings us closer to Christ. Satan knows this and will do ANYTHING to keep people from growing closer to Christ, even spreading lies about devotion to Christ’s mother. If he can convince people that devotion to Mary actually leads them AWAY from Christ he can effectively keep them from growing closer TO Christ.

That thought made me feel so sad for our Protestant brothers and sisters because they are so convinced that they know what Marian devotion is all about and that it’s a bad thing. They have absolutely no idea that they fell for the lie of the Evil One. Rather, he has successfully convinced them that WE are the ones who have fallen for the lie, even as we grow ever closer to Christ as we look at His face through the eyes of his mother.

Don’t ever get into an argument with anyone about Mary worship. Just pray for them!!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[bekalc]

I’m currently enrolled in RCIA class. But I must say this Mary is the last stumbling block for me, frankly.

I understand the principle of Communion of Saints, I really do and I guess I believe in it. I have began to pray the rosary and it does lead me closer to God. Although I do’nt focus much on Mary, weirdly enough. And when I started I felt like maybe i as short changing Jesus…

I think that’s really the issue for me. Once I went to adoration room because I wanted to know if I could believe in the Real Presence. I ended up later being in a prayer group. I was fine, we were all praying the rosary and I queitly prayed with. Then, they prayed the Consecration to Mary prayer and I freaked out. Because well as a Protestant I gave my heart to Jesus when I got saved. I couldn’t pray that and I freaked out and shut up. I thought about it later and figured that Mary wouldn’t mind my refusal to pray because if it made me that uncomfortable it might just be worship for me. I got a little better and realized perhaps it might not be worship for others.
I kind of understand Mary being our Mother sort of from Revelations. I realize that its not very fair to ask her to pray for me, and not be willing to have any relationship with her. But, its really slow baby steps. I’m always afraid I’ll go to far with the whole thing.

A couple of months later, I will also say that once again I got uncomfortable last week, when I was talking to my Catholic Aunt. As soon as she heard I was thinking about Catholic, she started going on and on about her devotion to Mary, and once again that really uncomfortable thing happened. I know my Aunt worships God and stuff, but frankly in someways I felt she placed a bit more emphasis on the Virgin then Mary. For example it bothered me when she said things like I’m placing Grandma in the Mother of God’s hands. I can’t help thinking well what about Jesus hands?

I’m just saying that this is still a bit of a tough one for me. This being said I do feel like I grow closer to Christ/am ushered in his presence when I pray the rosary.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Scripture specifically says that our works are the fruit of our LOVE:

John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Joh 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.

Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, If anyone loves me, he will keep my word

Joh 14:24Whoever does not love me does not keep my words.

There is a whole intricate system going one when it comes to faith. It’s not either/or but both/and. You can’t have Faith without Love and you can’t have Love without Faith. It’s kind of a catch 22. They are two very distinct things but are intertwined together in the intricate pattern that God has created.

 

[djrakowski]

bekalc:

I’m currently enrolled in RCIA class. But I must say this Mary is the last stumbling block for me, frankly.

God bless you and everyone else in RCIA! My wife and I have just enrolled, and the concerns you’ve expressed about Mary seem to be common for those of us who are converts. Consecration to Mary, the crowning as Queen of Heaven, and what seems like excessive (and sometimes downright inappropriate) devotion to her are subjects I intend to bring up when I meet with my priest next Wednesday. Strangely, the Real Presence is one truth that I’ve not had too much trouble accepting.

bekalc:

I’m just saying that this is still a bit of a tough one for me. This being said I do feel like I grow closer to Christ/am ushered in his presence when I pray the rosary.

The Rosary is a very comforting and gospel-centered prayer. Do a ‘Google’ search on the term ‘scriptural rosary’ and you’ll see what I mean. I had to get over the idea of praying through Mary 10 times for every ‘Our Father’ and ‘Oh my Jesus.’ Then I remembered that, throughout this prayer, I’m supposed to be focusing on the mysteries of that day. Its a hard form of prayer for those of us coming from a strong Protestant background.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Faith and love are NOT the same thing. One can have faith WITHOUT having love:

1 Cor. 13:2 if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1Co 13:13
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I still stand with my statement above… You can’t have Faith in God without Love. Faith is not just about believing in something. Faith is believing and immersing yourself in that Faith. To accept the WHOLE Faith and not just the parts you like. It’s not just Faith that God exists that we are talking about but the Faith that He is who He says He is. To accept Him and all He brings to the table. God is Love. We all know that right? So, how can you have FAITH but not Love? It’s a contradiction in terms. To have TRUE and TOTAL Faith you have to have TRUE and TOTAL Love.

In light of these scriptures, where do you believe God’s word speaks of our works being a fruit of our FAITH?

Also, where does God’s word talk about “true” faith? I know it talks about a dead, incomplete, useless faith, but where does it speak of “true” faith?

Romans 1:17 (New Living Translation)
This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”

Romans 3:27 (New Living Translation)
Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds.* It is based on our faith.*

Romans 3:30 (New Living Translation)
There is only one God, and there is only one way of being accepted by him. He makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.

Romans 4:5 (New Living Translation)
But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work.

Romans 5:1 (New Living Translation)
Faith Brings Joy ] Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.

And you were talking about this verse I think…

James 2:17 (New Living Translation)
So you see, it isn’t enough just to have faith. Faith that doesn’t show itself by good deeds is no faith at all–it is dead and useless.

Your LOVE for God fuels your FAITH that produces GOOD WORKS. It’s a system. It’s a recipe. Without one of the ingredients it will come out wrong.

 

[bekalc]

Singing I disagree with you on the basis of Scripture. Scripture says very much that someone can have faith without love.

Jesus told certain people that they weren’t going to heaven becuase they didn’t love their neighbor. These people responded by saying but Lord didn’t we cast out demons in your name? And Jesus says depart from me, I never knew you. It takes some faith to literally be able to cast out demons.

Plus, Paul also says you can have faith without love. He says, in 1 Corinthians 13:2 If I have faith, so that I could move mountains and have not love.

IF faith and love were synanmous why woud Paul tell us to abide in faith, hope and love but the greatest is love. Faith and love were put seperate repeadly in Scripture.

The Pharisees also had fiath, they fully believed in God, in a way they also fully immersed themselves in their faith too. Perhaps your definition of faith includes love, but in many places in Scripture the definition for faith is different. The Greek word for fiath pistos can also mean believe.

You are also misquoting James.

 

[Singinbeauty]

You are also misquoting James.

Don’t just say I am misquoting something and NOT tell me WHY you think that I am. You have to have evidence to back it up.

As for the rest of your post, like I said, I am talking about TRUE Faith not just faith that God exists but the Faith in ALL He teaches and commands. The pharasees did in fact have faith in God but they also did not. They did not believe that Jesus was who He said He was so they did not have TOTAL Faith because, as so many of us know, Jesus IS God.

Hate is a sin, do we all agree on that? And God is LOVE right? If we have faith that God is ALL He says He is but do not Love that would mean that there is Hate in our hearts right? If we are full of Hate there is not room for God or Faith. You cannot pick and choose. The KKK believe that God exists and they even do evil things in God’s name… Hateful things that make it evident that there is no Love present. Do you think that they have TRUE Faith in God? Or do they just use Him as a backing for their Hate? Yes, LOVE is the greatest of all BUT with that you have to consider that Love fuels True Faith that produces Good Works.

 

[PNRC]

They do. See forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=79639
Important moderator note: The website that is here offered is not giving accurate quotes of real Catholic documents. But pulling pieces out of context. Thanks to Church Militant for his quick research that he has posted later on in this thread which shows the quotes they cite do not exist. They are complete fabrications.
Please see the posts exposing them on the other thread

 

[LSK]

We do not - see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Early Church Fathers, St. Thomas Aquinas, and others so much more learned that us!

 

[exoflare]

And who would know better than a “fundamentalist”?

oops… I was referring to PNRC’s post two spaces above this one. Sometimes I really do wonder whether they truly believe the lies they propogate.

 

[Singinbeauty]

I have started a new thread on Faith in the Apologetics forum… I think we should move this discussion on Faith there…

 

[Orionthehunter]

Singinbeauty:

I still stand with my statement above… You can’t have Faith in God without Love. Faith is not just about believing in something. Faith is believing and immersing yourself in that Faith. To accept the WHOLE Faith and not just the parts you like. It’s not just Faith that God exists that we are talking about but the Faith that He is who He says He is. To accept Him and all He brings to the table. God is Love. We all know that right? So, how can you have FAITH but not Love? It’s a contradiction in terms. To have TRUE and TOTAL Faith you have to have TRUE and TOTAL Love.

Singing, I understand what you are saying but you are creating a definition of a word (faith) that is not correct. Words mean something so that thoughts, ideas, principles and truth can mean something. When we “make up” our own definition, we are unable to communicate with others who have a different definition. Faith means by definition “unquestioning belief”. Pope Benedict (when he was Cardinal Ratzinger) took 90 pages in “Introduction to Christianity” to explain what it means to believe and faith means that you approach what you hold as truth without question or reservation.

You are trying to add the component of “love” to faith and this is not semantically correct. Love is our response to our faith but it isn’t a prerequisite or automatic. I can unquestioningly believe that God exists and have no love. Once I have Faith, I need to pray for Love, Hope, and Charity. These are all distinct gifts for which we must respond to God’s invititation to Faith, His unconditional Love, His unending promise of his Mercy through Christ, and calling to Witness the Good News.

 

[Knight4God]

E.E.N.S.:

I will have to reply on monday when I get back in town and have my resources in front of me, but I will leave you with a couple of links with regards to the ECF and intercessory prayers of the saints.

staycatholic.com/ecf_intercession.htm

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

I will leave you with a teaser from the great biblical scholar, St. Jerome:
“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 A.D. 406]).

(I would however like you to cite where exactly in Scripture you believe that takes away the credibilty from this age-old tradition…(?)

I dub the two links, “information overload”.

Actually, I read most of both. For the first few hundred years it seems there are a few things:

I. The Saints in Heaven pray for us (I have not denied hit in my posts, I denied we communicate our requests to them)
II. We pray for the Saints (I did not deny this either, prayer can be an expression of love towards another and legitimate even for those in Heaven)
III. Honor of the Saints (see my post on cultural forms, I happen to have two Eastern Orthodox Icons on my wall and celebrate some saints days in an Episcopal manner)

What I am arguing is not that the above three are not legitimate or at least defensible, but that the idea of specific request of communication being made to individual saints in Heaven is valid. Not that I’m accusing you of worshipping them, but that it is not relevant.

The anonymous funerary epigraphs are the only parts that endorse such. But the question is not did some Christians pray to saints, but that should they have. We all agree that there were differences in opinion among Christians and those who claimed to be about certain things right? So are the Epigraphs considered valid? Or popular piety that was mistaken? I’m not convinced that popular piety is always right enough.

 

[Knight4God]

Lazerlike42:

Here’s where I have to bring up any and all of the countless beliefs Protestants hold which are not explicitly or often even implicitly in the Scriptures.

It may be we do, but that does not prove I should believe in yet another! There is a reason a person decides a certain belief is true, and I do not see how you go from possibility to actuality with this doctrine when it seems counter-intuitive to the what appears as the revealed nature of the afterlife and spiritual existence. Now my tradition of sola scriptura does play a role, but SS could be wrong and also prayer to saints, disproving my beliefs implied from scripture does not prove yours by default.

 

[Knight4God]

Catholic4aReasn:

This is certainly true of those of us IN the body, but where do you find scriptural evidence that this is necessarily true of those OUTSIDE the body? Why would they necessarily be subject to the constraints of time and space if they are outside of time and space with the Lord?

In Christ,
Nancy

Space: Because they are no omnipresent, like angels. Therefore whatever “spirit substance” is must be localized at some inter-dimensional point.

Time: Because until the new heavens and new earth after the physical resurrection, Heaven is a temporary place where Saints await for the resurrection. And so it must be in time, so that they can be actually said to “wait” on something.