Catholics accused of worshiping Mary

[Catholic4aReasn]

Singinbeauty:

You can’t have Faith without Love

That’s in direct contradiction to God’s word:

1 Cor. 13:2 if I have all faith, so that I can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

This specifically says that it’s entirely possible to have faith, ALL faith in fact, and still not have love.

Where do you believe scripture teaches that you can’t have faith without love?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Singinbeauty:

I still stand with my statement above… You can’t have Faith in God without Love. Faith is not just about believing in something. Faith is believing and immersing yourself in that Faith. To accept the WHOLE Faith and not just the parts you like. It’s not just Faith that God exists that we are talking about but the Faith that He is who He says He is. To accept Him and all He brings to the table. God is Love. We all know that right? So, how can you have FAITH but not Love? It’s a contradiction in terms. To have TRUE and TOTAL Faith you have to have TRUE and TOTAL Love.

Romans 1:17 (New Living Translation)
This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”

Romans 3:27 (New Living Translation)
Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds.* It is based on our faith.*

Romans 3:30 (New Living Translation)
There is only one God, and there is only one way of being accepted by him. He makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.

Romans 4:5 (New Living Translation)
But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work.

Romans 5:1 (New Living Translation)
Faith Brings Joy ] Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.

You’re simply proof-texting here. These verses merely have the word “faith” in them. They have nothing to do with the question I asked.

And you were talking about this verse I think…

James 2:17 (New Living Translation)
So you see, it isn’t enough just to have faith. Faith that doesn’t show itself by good deeds is no faith at all–it is dead and useless.

Please don’t use the New Living Translation on this board. James does not say “no faith it all”. That was added by the editors and it completely changes James’ meaning. Why would you use a translation that adds to the word of God???

Your LOVE for God fuels your FAITH that produces GOOD WORKS. It’s a system. It’s a recipe. Without one of the ingredients it will come out wrong.

Please show me that recipe in scripture, without prooftexting.

Thanks!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Singinbeauty]

I have moved this conversation as it does not pertain to the OP… I will answer your questions regarding this over there in ‘Faith and True Faith… What’s the Difference?’ in Aplogetics…

 

[boban]

bekalc:

I’m currently enrolled in RCIA class. But I must say this Mary is the last stumbling block for me, frankly.

I understand the principle of Communion of Saints, I really do and I guess I believe in it. I have began to pray the rosary and it does lead me closer to God. Although I do’nt focus much on Mary, weirdly enough. And when I started I felt like maybe i as short changing Jesus…

I think that’s really the issue for me. Once I went to adoration room because I wanted to know if I could believe in the Real Presence. I ended up later being in a prayer group. I was fine, we were all praying the rosary and I queitly prayed with. Then, they prayed the Consecration to Mary prayer and I freaked out. Because well as a Protestant I gave my heart to Jesus when I got saved. I couldn’t pray that and I freaked out and shut up. I thought about it later and figured that Mary wouldn’t mind my refusal to pray because if it made me that uncomfortable it might just be worship for me. I got a little better and realized perhaps it might not be worship for others.

Yours is a very endearing post. God bless you.

Where I think that where you are having a problem is in what you think the fullness of authentic worship is. See my post # 191 for an explanation that should help you come to terms with what makes you understandably uncomfortable.

And let me tell you about my wife (she died 17 years ago) who almost always got all the attention when we were both talking with one or more others. These others would have eye contact with her and pay attention to her only, as if I was invisible. That hurt my pride a lot. And when I realized that it was my pride that was the problem and that this was not a good thing. I then realized something else right after that.

I loved and admired my wife and I could then realize that for others to do the same only made me aware of how blessed and proud I was that she was my wife. That took nothing away from me. I then enjoyed the experice very much.

I think the Jesus loved His mother more than any Jewish son could love his mother. To have her paid a good deal of attention to because of her goodness in no way took anything away from Himself. Rather it is admiring and cherishing what a wonder is the work that God made when He created her. To hold dear His work is to give Him credit and it is to love what He loved.

When my wife died I was perplexed as to why she was taken and I was left. It took about a year with this strange turn of events bothering me when it finally dawned on me. She was finished and God still had a lot of work to do on me, and for me to do. That answer is very satisfying and I strive to measure up to her standards hoping to be finished too before I take my last breath.

 

[boban]

E.E.N.S.:

The 4th commandment says we are to honor our parents. We do not worship our parents. There is a difference.

Maybe you haven’t heard this before, but:

latria = worship due to God alone.
dulia = honor [due to saints].
hyperdulia = highest honor due a human [Mary].

We do not worship the Blessed Mother and that is proven in that we do not offer her a sacrifice. That is the main difference between hyperdulia and latria. Moslems, Buddists, and Protestants do not specifically offer sacrifice in their worship and so their worship is not complete.

Rom 12: 1, "I urge you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, your spiritual worship.”

Mt 5: 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Catholics take their instruction from the bible.

 

[Golf_Nut]

Lance:

In the Islamic forum there is a thread ‘Why I am not a Christian’. One of the posters there used the excuse that we worship Mary as to why she was not a Christian, when I corrected her the Mod requested that we stay on subject, so I am starting this thread in hopes that anyone who thinks we Catholics worship Mary will come here and state their reasons for believing so and we can correct them. Thank you.

You raise an interesting point. Not only do the Muslims regard Catholics as polytheistic (worshipping more than one god) but so do the Jews.

One of the ten commandments is that there is only one God and we will have not graven images before us. This is very clear and I am unable to reconcile the notion of one God with the Catholic practice of prayer to stautes of Mary and Jesus.

The act of praying to Mary or a Saint seems to me to be worshipping them and not God. Kneeling and praying is conduct that i think is worship.

The holy trinity also confuses me to no end.

If there is only one God, then Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not on the same level as God.

But, my only solution is to read the Bible and try to sort this all out. I think the Old Testament makes reference to a saviour that will be born. I interpret this to be a clear reference to Jesus. So, Jesus and God can co-exist and not violate the commandment that there is only one God.

Its all confusing and i generally go to church, receive some wisdom from the homily, try to follow it in my own life, but as for sorting out all these theological issues, i suspect that the OT and the NT simply are not wholly reconcilable and trying to do so results in absurd arguments.

 

[Mickey]

Golf_Nut:

One of the ten commandments is that there is only one God and we will have not graven images before us. This is very clear and I am unable to reconcile the notion of one God with the Catholic practice of prayer to stautes of Mary and Jesus.

The act of praying to Mary or a Saint seems to me to be worshipping them and not God. Kneeling and praying is conduct that i think is worship.

The holy trinity also confuses me to no end.

If you read this entire thread, there ar some very clear explanations for your inquiries. However, I suggest you search the Catholic Answers database and read the CCC. As a Catholic, it is important for you to understand the theology of the faith.

Peace,
Mickey

 

[E.E.N.S]

boban:

We do not worship the Blessed Mother and that is proven in that we do not offer her a sacrifice. That is the main difference between hyperdulia and latria. Moslems, Buddists, and Protestants do not specifically offer sacrifice in their worship and so their worship is not complete.

Rom 12: 1, "I urge you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, your spiritual worship.”

Mt 5: 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Catholics take their instruction from the bible.

Yes, I know this.

 

[drforjc]

The act of praying to Mary or a Saint seems to me to be worshipping them and not God. Kneeling and praying is conduct that i think is worship.

Actually, I would say that worshipping is an act of the intellect and will.

Worship as Catholics understand it is the creature’s acknowledgment of and submission to its sovreign Creator which is sometimes expressed through physical acts and/or words. This is also referred to as latria, or divine honors.
The Catholic faith does not permit divine honors (latria) to be given to anyone but God.
When we honor Mary, we do not acknowledge her as our sovreign Creator. Therefore, we do not worship her.

 

[Knight4God]

Golf_Nut:

The act of praying to Mary or a Saint seems to me to be worshipping them and not God. Kneeling and praying is conduct that i think is worship.

This has already been addressed, “bowing” and “praying” are cultural forms of language or actions that express a deeper conceptual reality. It’s this deeper level that defines “worship” from “honor”, not the outward forms that express them. In other words, burning a candle or bowing is not in and of itself an act of worship, unless the person intends it to be such.

Which means we should give the Catholics some slack, what they are doing in nowhere near as bad as our Protestant polemic thinks it is

 

[Golf_Nut]

drforjc:

Actually, I would say that worshipping is an act of the intellect and will.

Worship as Catholics understand it is the creature’s acknowledgment of and submission to its sovreign Creator which is sometimes expressed through physical acts and/or words. This is also referred to as latria, or divine honors.
The Catholic faith does not permit divine honors (latria) to be given to anyone but God.
When we honor Mary, we do not acknowledge her as our sovreign Creator. Therefore, we do not worship her.

Respectfully, I must disagree. I believe one of the Ten Commandments says that you will not bow down before any idols. I am not saying Mary is an idol, but the act of praying to Mary is a form of worship. If praying is not, then i do not know what is.

Catholics frequently pray to Mary and Saints. This is not consistent with the Commandment. Thats all i am saying. I have yet to read a satisfactory response that makes sense.

I certainly dont have the answers but you can see where protestants, jews and muslims are coming from. I dont have much to tell them on this.

 

[deb1]

Golf_Nut:

Respectfully, I must disagree. I believe one of the Ten Commandments says that you will not bow down before any idols. I am not saying Mary is an idol, but the act of praying to Mary is a form of worship. If praying is not, then i do not know what is.

Catholics frequently pray to Mary and Saints. This is not consistent with the Commandment. Thats all i am saying. I have yet to read a satisfactory response that makes sense.

I certainly dont have the answers but you can see where protestants, jews and muslims are coming from. I dont have much to tell them on this.

This whole thread has been answers on the very questions that you have brought up.I realize that this is a loo…ooong thread but it helps to read all the posts first.

We do not bow down to idols. Mary is not an idol, she is a real human being. Bowing and Kneeling are a cultural manner of showing respect and reverence.

The commandement that you speak of says not to bow down and worship graven images. We are not worshipping statues or icons. Such artistic displays are merely representations of the Saints, Jesus and Mary.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Golf_Nut:

Respectfully, I must disagree. I believe one of the Ten Commandments says that you will not bow down before any idols. I am not saying Mary is an idol, but the act of praying to Mary is a form of worship. If praying is not, then i do not know what is.

Catholics frequently pray to Mary and Saints. This is not consistent with the Commandment. Thats all i am saying. I have yet to read a satisfactory response that makes sense.

I certainly dont have the answers but you can see where protestants, jews and muslims are coming from. I dont have much to tell them on this.

Hi there!

Many who hold the same opinion you do are under the false impression that “pray” has only one meaning and that is praying to God and God alone. In English that’s not the case:

Pray
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

You see? The #2 definition is the one that some seem to think is the only definition. The #1 definition is “praying to” those in heaven. It’s nothing other than a prayer request. The person “praying to” someone in heaven is asking that person in heaven to pray FOR him…it’s a request, as you can see in definition #1.

Asking someone in heaven to pray for you is entirely different from praying to God. One word, two different meanings:

Homonym:
one of two or more words spelled and pronounced alike but different in meaning

So you see, those who so choose (it’s not required) to ask someone in heaven to pray for them are not worshipping that person any more than you’d be worshipping me if you asked me to pray for you.

Hope the helps!!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[drforjc]

Respectfully, I must disagree. I believe one of the Ten Commandments says that you will not bow down before any idols. I am not saying Mary is an idol, but the act of praying to Mary is a form of worship. If praying is not, then i do not know what is.

Catholics frequently pray to Mary and Saints. This is not consistent with the Commandment. Thats all i am saying. I have yet to read a satisfactory response that makes sense.

I certainly dont have the answers but you can see where protestants, jews and muslims are coming from. I dont have much to tell them on this.

You seem to have a rather fundamentalist concept of biblical interpretation. You did not address in any way any of the points I made except with a “prooftext” that has obviously been interpreted differently by the Church than by you. You are more hung up on the literal description of posture than on the true meaning of the concept of an idol and the definition of worship.

 

[Golf_Nut]

drforjc:

You seem to have a rather fundamentalist concept of biblical interpretation. You did not address in any way any of the points I made except with a “prooftext” that has obviously been interpreted differently by the Church than by you. You are more hung up on the literal description of posture than on the true meaning of the concept of an idol and the definition of worship.

I do not believe that I am “hung up” on a literalist view. I am certainly not fundamentalist either.

But my point is this: The Ten Commandments are clear and frankly quite simple. When we deviate from the literal interpretation there is the danger that we will interpret them according to our own view. The word of God then becomes meaningless.

Some parts of the Bible certainly lends itself to a non-literal interpretation. A prime example are the parables of Jesus. When he said it is easier of a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven, I do not interpret that literally but look at the underlying meaning.

But when the Commandments say there is only one God and you shall not worship idols, well I fail to see how any interpretation other than the literal one would apply! And I have read the postings and they do not address this adequately.

I have attended Catholic church all my life, have prayed, tried to follow the words of Jesus, but lately, I have examined the Old Testament and realized that there are some fundamentally troubling issues as described above. The next step is for me to read some apologists books to see if they adequately resolve this issue.

 

[cheddarsox]

Golf_Nut:

You raise an interesting point. Not only do the Muslims regard Catholics as polytheistic (worshipping more than one god) but so do the Jews.

I believe this may be due to a concept known as holotheism. Some polytheists believe that the different deities are facets or faces of a greater unified divine. In that sense, it can be seen how some might equate the concept of trinity to a form of holotheism, and thus polytheism.

The Christian trinity is not the only place where there are several persons in “one divine”.

Most Christian trinitarians do not consider themselves polytheistic. Their concept of trinity is understood, by them,as being different from other applications of a similar concept.

When dealing with mystical revelations and understandings of the divine, it is nearly impossible, as an outsider to truly understand the nature of a belief. There is much context, experience, and unspoken and unwritten understanding involved.

cheddar

 

[Golf_Nut]

cheddarsox:

I believe this may be due to a concept known as holotheism. Some polytheists believe that the different deities are facets or faces of a greater unified divine. In that sense, it can be seen how some might equate the concept of trinity to a form of holotheism, and thus polytheism.

The Christian trinity is not the only place where there are several persons in “one divine”.

Most Christian trinitarians do not consider themselves polytheistic. Their concept of trinity is understood, by them,as being different from other applications of a similar concept.

When dealing with mystical revelations and understandings of the divine, it is nearly impossible, as an outsider to truly understand the nature of a belief. There is much context, experience, and unspoken and unwritten understanding involved.

cheddar

From other posts, I believe the Church says that the Trinity is made up of three divine yet distinct entities. The argument is that there is only one God, but Jesus and the Holy Spirit are divine too. however they are not separate in their divinity because that would mean there is more than one God. Instead they are one in the same with God. This makes no sense. I personally think that the Commandement is not reconcilable with the New Testament and so serious, well meaning Catholic theologians say that it is a “mystery” and we must have “faith.” For some people this may be satisfactory. If you say look, I can’t explain the apparent contradiction with the Commandment but I believe anyway, thats fine. Such a catholic’s belief is based on faith. Nothing wrong with that. But for a catholic to say that such belief is logical is absurd.

I am saying that from a logical analysis it does not make sense. From one of faith, it does.

By the way, Protestants, Jews and Muslims are quick to make this criticism of Catholics, but I have found that their own texts are also riddled with contradictions that can only be resolved by faith.

 

[Mickey]

Golf_Nut:

I have attended Catholic church all my life, have prayed, tried to follow the words of Jesus, but lately, I have examined the Old Testament and realized that there are some fundamentally troubling issues as described above. The next step is for me to read some apologists books to see if they adequately resolve this issue.

Good idea. Also read the CCC and Church Fathers. This would be very beneficial for you. As a Catholic, It would be unfortunate for you to become a dissenter of the Catholic Church.

 

[Writer]

Golf_Nut:

Respectfully, I must disagree. I believe one of the Ten Commandments says that you will not bow down before any idols. I am not saying Mary is an idol, but the act of praying to Mary is a form of worship. If praying is not, then i do not know what is.

Catholics frequently pray to Mary and Saints. This is not consistent with the Commandment. Thats all i am saying. I have yet to read a satisfactory response that makes sense.

I certainly dont have the answers but you can see where protestants, jews and muslims are coming from. I dont have much to tell them on this.

Really what we are dealing with here are limitations in language. What we believe is that the saints and Mary are as real and accessible to us (on a spiritual plane) as our neighbor or friend. Our communications with them, if we are so inclined, are not of a worshiping nature but represent simple communications, asking a brother or sister in Christ to pray for us, to interceded on our behalf. It is not required that any of us ever “pray” to Mary, and I, as a former protestant, have to admit a lack of interest in investing too much of my time down that road. Having said that, however, I am confident that mature Catholics can in good conscience pray to Mary or the saints and ask for their added assistance in their lives. If the saints represent the “cloud of witnesses” that the Bible refers to, asking them for aid is no more troublesome than asking a friend to pray for you. Furthermore, if they are with God who is outside of our time, they are also themselves outside of our time. It is simply an acknowlegement that death does not seperate us from the love of God.

 

[Golf_Nut]

Writer:

Really what we are dealing with here are limitations in language. What we believe is that the saints and Mary are as real and accessible to us (on a spiritual plane) as our neighbor or friend. Our communications with them, if we are so inclined, are not of a worshiping nature but represent simple communications, asking a brother or sister in Christ to pray for us, to interceded on our behalf. It is not required that any of us ever “pray” to Mary, and I, as a former protestant, have to admit a lack of interest in investing too much of my time down that road. Having said that, however, I am confident that mature Catholics can in good conscience pray to Mary or the saints and ask for their added assistance in their lives. If the saints represent the “cloud of witnesses” that the Bible refers to, asking them for aid is no more troublesome than asking a friend to pray for you. Furthermore, if they are with God who is outside of our time, they are also themselves outside of our time. It is simply an acknowlegement that death does not seperate us from the love of God.

Interesting. What part of the Bible refers to the “cloud of witnesses.”?

Thank you for your comments.