Catholics: Am I, as a Protestant, saved?

[SteveVH]

No one ever claimed the church saves. It is Christ that saves. Christ saves us through his death on the cross. We receive instruction and grace in answering the call to discipleship through the church that Christ founded. The Roman Catholic Church.

Protestantism is simply following man’s traditions over the traditions given to us by Jesus Christ and his apostles.

We need to be very careful here. The whole point of the Catholic Church is the union of God with man in Christ Jesus. If Jesus started a Church then that Church is necessary for union with God. The sacraments, the saints, the clergy, the creeds, the dogmas, the doctrines; all of it is there to lead men to union with God in Jesus Christ. All of it is essential to our salvation.

So the Church is not just an institution that leads people to salvation. Properly speaking it is salvation. Jesus started the Church in order to continue the work that He did while He was on earth. The Church is the union of God with man in Jesus Christ. She doesn’t just lead us to it but is it. To those that hold that only a relationship with Jesus matters, I would simply reply that the Church is that relationship with Christ to which we are all called.

 

[Jon_S_1]

We need to be very careful here. The whole point of the Catholic Church is the union of God with man in Christ Jesus. If Jesus started a Church then that Church is necessary for union with God. The sacraments, the saints, the clergy, the creeds, the dogmas, the doctrines; all of it is there to lead men to union with God in Jesus Christ. All of it is essential to our salvation.

So the Church is not just an institution that leads people to salvation. Properly speaking it is salvation. Jesus started the Church in order to continue the work that He did while He was on earth. The Church is the union of God with man in Jesus Christ. She doesn’t just lead us to it but is it. To those that hold that only a relationship with Jesus matters, I would simply reply that the Church is that relationship with Christ to which we are all called.

Yes I am aware of this and want to be clear that it is ultimately Christ.

Without Christ there is no Church

Without the Church you cannot find Christ.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Strange! That is exactly what Protestants would say: That Catholicism is simply following man’s traditions over the Word of God.

Oh I know all to well. I was fundamentalist for 30 years!!! I know the Protestant spin.

You can never honestly look at Protestantism and say it’s not a tradition of men.

Lutheran’s - Luther
Baptists- Smith
Methodists- Wesley
Presbyterian /reformed- Calvin
Evangelicals/Baptists/ - often Zuigli
Mormons- Smith

Non denominational follow their pastor. They follow a modern man.

Often you believe you follow the Bible alone, but in reality you follow a mans interpretation of the Bible.

You divorced yourself from the True traditions that were taught by the Apostles as recorded in Scripture. You divorce yourself from the church established by Christ in the first century.

You even remove 7 books of the Bible by combination of Luther’s decrees and printing errors.

The Catholic Church has many traditions yes, these traditions (for the most part) are 2000 years old.

Your oldest tradition is the Bible which is a gift to you of the tradition of the Catholic Church

 

[rinnie]

Yes I am aware of this and want to be clear that it is ultimately Christ.

Without Christ there is no Church

Without the Church you cannot find Christ.

Yes it is Christ who works through his Church, As we are told Christ and his Church are one.

In the same token it would not be false to say Salvation indeed does come from the Catholic Church.

The CCC 846 explains this clear.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Yes it is Christ who works through his Church, As we are told Christ and his Church are one.

In the same token it would not be false to say Salvation indeed does come from the Catholic Church.

The CCC 846 explains this clear.

Yes I agree.

The poster I responded to acted as if the church saves without or apart from Christ. As if the church atoned for our sins in some way. I wanted to make it clear to him that it is Christ of whom the Church is united with

 

[adf417]

Yes I agree.

The poster I responded to acted as if the church saves without or apart from Christ. As if the church atoned for our sins in some way. I wanted to make it clear to him that it is Christ of whom the Church is united with

I’ve seen this confusion many times here on CAF as Catholics try to explain “Church” in Protestant understanding and terms then other Catholics come behind and try to clear it up with a more succinct definition of “Church” and in the end the Protestant still goes away with their own original flawed understanding of “Church”. Until the definition of church is universally understood in the way Christ meant it, we will continue trying to have these subsequent conversations, “Am I, as a Protestant, saved”, in different languages, English and EnGlish.:hypno: and in the mean time, spreading confusion amongst fellow Catholics…

Peace Brother!!!

 

[JRKH]

I’ve seen this confusion many times here on CAF as Catholics try to explain “Church” in Protestant understanding and terms then other Catholics come behind and try to clear it up with a more succinct definition of “Church” and in the end the Protestant still goes away with their own original flawed understanding of “Church”. Until the definition of church is universally understood in the way Christ meant it, we will continue trying to have these subsequent conversations, “Am I, as a Protestant, saved”, in different languages, English and EnGlish.:hypno: and in the mean time, spreading confusion amongst fellow Catholics…

Peace Brother!!!

This is true…and we see happen on several different terms like justification and works - even “faith” can be problematic. Each person having a different understanding for the word and we wind up talking past one another.

Peace
James

 

[adf417]

This is true…and we see happen on several different terms like justification and works - even “faith” can be problematic. Each person having a different understanding for the word and we wind up talking past one another.

Peace
James

Talking past one another is a problem but the real danger comes when one side tries to understand the other’s side of the usage and engages from that perspective. Not often does it turn out pretty but I have seen it a couple of times.:

Peace!!!

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

The Second Vatican Council said,

“This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
(Lumen Gentium 14)
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Is it possible for one who is not visibly in communion with the Church to be saved? Few will deny this because God is able to accomplish everything he wills. However, we have to consider that we are given one life, and at the end of it, we will have to give an account of how we used it. If the Catholic faith was revealed by Christ and the Catholic Church was instituted by Christ yet you set yourself squarely against it, do you think you will be able to claim innocence before God for your ignorance?

 

[JRKH]

Talking past one another is a problem but the real danger comes when one side tries to understand the other’s side of the usage and engages from that perspective. Not often does it turn out pretty but I have seen it a couple of times.:

Peace!!!

Indeed - one must be careful. However a good outcome is possible. One such good outcome might be the Joint Declaration on Justification.

More generally - and to a lesser extent - the two sides can sometimes come to a greater understanding of the other which in itself is a good thing.

Peace
James

 

[ClearWater]

Only Faith…

Matthew 25:31-46 Shows how good works are necessary for eternal life.
John 6:48-58-The Eucharist is necessary
Acts 15:11 - Grace is necessary
1 Corinthians 13:13 —Love is greater than Faith
1 Peter 3:21–Baptism saves you

So, how can we use any of the 5 Solas, since they are all necessary?

 

[ClearWater]

The problem with other faiths is that they don’t have “the fullness of truth”. They are missing pieces, out of the Bible, the sacraments, and from these incomplete truths, they are trying to get to heaven. It’s a tremendous disadvantage, since Christ gave us all the sacraments in the hopes of saving us. For someone to say, “I read the Bible. I don’t need the Eucharist” is making it harder on oneself, is all.

 

[Cathoholic]

Believerdoc:

Does anybody today have any authentic authority to teach and interpret Apostolic Teachings authoritatively and definitively? Who?

 

[Delta2]

According with Dogmatic Constitution of The Catholic Church - Lumen-Gentium it states :

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[PRmerger]

Or if you will, am I in a state of sanctifying grace?

We do not judge you. We are not aware of anything against you, but that does not mean you are thereby acquitted.

It is the Lord Who judges you.

 

[PRmerger]

When I say Sola Scriptura, I mean that a doctrine should not be considered essential to the Christian faith unless it is taught in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6).

But what are these “essential doctrines” and what are the “secondary” ones? And how do we know? What verses tell us that a particular doctrine is an essential?

For example, is Malachi 1:11 an essential? It is indeed “taught in Scripture”. What about 1 Tim 6:11?

And how do we know it’s an essential or not?

It also means that it is sufficient, not only to tell one what they need for salvation, but also to equip them for every good works (1 Timothy 3:16-17).

Did you perhaps mean 2 Timothy?

If you did, I still don’t see where it says that Scripture is “sufficient”, which is the operating word here. “Sufficient” meaning “nothing else is necessary”.

 

[icamhif]

But what are these “essential doctrines” and what are the “secondary” ones? And how do we know? What verses tell us that a particular doctrine is an essential?

Good question! It’s where the Bible declares a condemnation to hell on those who do not believe in it.

Examples:

Galatians 1:8-9
“8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.” [Do not debate with me on the meaning of “accursed,” please. Thank you.]

John 8:24
"24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

John 3:36
“36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

1 John 4:2-3
“2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.”

Did you perhaps mean 2 Timothy?
If you did, I still don’t see where it says that Scripture is “sufficient”, which is the operating word here. “Sufficient” meaning “nothing else is necessary”.

Yes, I did mean 2 Timothy. Thank you!
As I repeatedly said, I do not wish to debate with you, or anyone here.
But in case you’re just asking to understand me, here you go :

Sufficient: Enough to meet the needs of a situation or a proposed end (Merriam Webster Dictionary).

If the Scripture is enough to equip one for every good work, then by definition, it is sufficient.

Peace

 

[Jon_S_1]

Good question! It’s where the Bible declares a condemnation to hell on those who do not believe in it.

Says who?
Where can I see a Bible verse that gives that clarification?
There must not be consensus in Protestantism regarding this since all the denominations disagree about what is condemned (ie homosexuality., abortion)

Examples:

Galatians 1:8-9
“8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.” [Do not debate with me on the meaning of “accursed,” please. Thank you.]

Didn’t Martin Luther preach a gospel contrary to what was taught. The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist was taught since Christ. Even if we set the Bible aside you can see historically it was taught in the first century. Further proof exists that every apostolic church still practices this.

So why do you not see that some dude came along 1600 years later and started teaching it was a symbol and yet we are to believe this person? How does that fit with the passage?

Here are some historical examples for you.:.

“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”

“Letter to the Smyrnaeans”, paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

“Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ.”

-“Letter to the Ephesians”, paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.

“I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.”

-“Letter to the Romans”, paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.

“Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons.”

-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (Alt)

“This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.”

“First Apology”, Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

 

[PRmerger]

Good questionhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWXKUPt7a-U! It’s where the Bible declares a condemnation to hell on those who do not believe in it.\Quote]

I presume that you believe that monotheism is an essential belief. so where does the Bible to clear a condemnation to hell to those who do not believe in this?

 

[SteveVH]

As I repeatedly said, I do not wish to debate with you, or anyone here.

So let me see if I understand your position. You are allowed to make any statement you wish but no one is allowed to challenge you? Sorry. It doesn’t work that way.