Catholics and Firearms

[TheDoctor]

One can use #5 shot in the short barrel 4.10 and not worry about over penetration.Personaly i feel a shotgun would be a better choice. To me it would be more intimidating.

Not to turn this into a gun vs. gun thread, but .410 vs. 12 gauge is almost as big as debate as 9mm vs 45.

To the OP:

1. You can keep and use a firearm in your home to defend you or your family. Or a knife. Or a pit bull. Or a bazooka. The morality comes in how you use the weapon.
2. No matter where you move, check the laws of the state you are in to determine what you need to do to legally own the firearm you will choose to have in your home. Read the laws yourself, don’t rely on the police as many times they are not experts in this area. (If you move to PA send me a PM and I will send you a link to a great website that addresses these concerns).
3. Make sure that everyone knows how to safely handle the weapon even if they have no intention of firing it.
4. Practice firarm safety at all times.
5. Practice handling the UNLOADED weapon until you are familiar with it and practice firing it (at a safe range of course) as often as you can.
6. Have a safe place to store it in the house that children or drunk friends cannot easily get into but you can access when needed (e.g. a combination lock box).
7. Develop a home defense plan (e.g. if I hear someone breaking in, I will get the gun while my wife calls 9-1-1 from her cellphone; we will then secure in our bedroom until police arrive, etc.
8. Put a lawyer on retainer and do not talk to the police. If you have to use your firearm and need to put someone down your first call is to 9-1-1 to tell them that out of fear for your life you have had to shoot someone. Your next call is to your lawyer. You then surrender your firearm to the first arriving officer and tell them that you may be in shock and will gladly answer all of their questions as soon as your attourney arrives.

If you have not thought of these things, consider them carefully before you decide to go ahead.

And for what it is worth:
Generally the .410 will not overpenetrate however that also means that if the intruder is wearing heavy clothing they may not take a critical shot. The 12 gauge is big and loud but 00 buck will go through the condo walls if you miss. Also, shotguns and semi’s jam and you need to know how to clear them in the middle of the night when you are half awake and the adrenaline is pumping (See #5). Also, sometimes rounds (mostly primers) are duds. Also, even a short barrel shotgun is cumbersome to move around a tight condo with.

For someone not into guns, take a look at the .38 with a 4" barrel. Revolver points nice and will not break the bank. Ammo is cheap to practice with and several great self defense loads are available. It does not jam and if the round does not go off just pull the trigger again. Recoil is very managable. Able to keep it near your body mass if you have to move through the condo which reduces the chance of losing it in an altercation. You can speedload a .38 faster than a shotgun. Invest in a good flashlight as well. If you want the ability for more varied loads and fun at the range, go with the .357 magnum (and remember you can use .38 ammo in a .357 but NEVER use .357 ammo in a .38).

 

[Rand2410]

Which commandment(s) are you referring to?

Thou shall not murder/kill.

 

[Rand2410]

Not to turn this into a gun vs. gun thread, but .410 vs. 12 gauge is almost as big as debate as 9mm vs 45.

To the OP:

1. You can keep and use a firearm in your home to defend you or your family. Or a knife. Or a pit bull. Or a bazooka. The morality comes in how you use the weapon.
2. No matter where you move, check the laws of the state you are in to determine what you need to do to legally own the firearm you will choose to have in your home. Read the laws yourself, don’t rely on the police as many times they are not experts in this area. (If you move to PA send me a PM and I will send you a link to a great website that addresses these concerns).
3. Make sure that everyone knows how to safely handle the weapon even if they have no intention of firing it.
4. Practice firarm safety at all times.
5. Practice handling the UNLOADED weapon until you are familiar with it and practice firing it (at a safe range of course) as often as you can.
6. Have a safe place to store it in the house that children or drunk friends cannot easily get into but you can access when needed (e.g. a combination lock box).
7. Develop a home defense plan (e.g. if I hear someone breaking in, I will get the gun while my wife calls 9-1-1 from her cellphone; we will then secure in our bedroom until police arrive, etc.
8. Put a lawyer on retainer and do not talk to the police. If you have to use your firearm and need to put someone down your first call is to 9-1-1 to tell them that out of fear for your life you have had to shoot someone. Your next call is to your lawyer. You then surrender your firearm to the first arriving officer and tell them that you may be in shock and will gladly answer all of their questions as soon as your attourney arrives.

If you have not thought of these things, consider them carefully before you decide to go ahead.

And for what it is worth:
Generally the .410 will not overpenetrate however that also means that if the intruder is wearing heavy clothing they may not take a critical shot. The 12 gauge is big and loud but 00 buck will go through the condo walls if you miss. Also, shotguns and semi’s jam and you need to know how to clear them in the middle of the night when you are half awake and the adrenaline is pumping (See #5). Also, sometimes rounds (mostly primers) are duds. Also, even a short barrel shotgun is cumbersome to move around a tight condo with.

For someone not into guns, take a look at the .38 with a 4" barrel. Revolver points nice and will not break the bank. Ammo is cheap to practice with and several great self defense loads are available. It does not jam and if the round does not go off just pull the trigger again. Recoil is very managable. Able to keep it near your body mass if you have to move through the condo which reduces the chance of losing it in an altercation. You can speedload a .38 faster than a shotgun. Invest in a good flashlight as well. If you want the ability for more varied loads and fun at the range, go with the .357 magnum (and remember you can use .38 ammo in a .357 but NEVER use .357 ammo in a .38).

Thanks ! I was considering a used S&W model 586 .357 with full lug 4" barrel loaded with .38 spl Federal Hydra-shok JHP to prevent overpenetration.

 

[TheDoctor]

Thou shall not murder/kill.

The commandment addresses the intentioinal taking of a life when there is no valid reason to do so.

IMHO (for what it is worth): If they break into your home their intention is to do harm to you or your family (to think that they would break in to steal your stuff and will politely exit when asked is foolish) so holding them at gunpoint until the police arrive is acceptable. Killing them out of true fear for your life is acceptable. Killing them when there is no reasonable chance they can harm you or your family (e.g. shooting at a fleeing car) is unacceptable.

Praying that whatever your decision you are never put in the position of having to do it.

 

[Rand2410]

The commandment addresses the intentioinal taking of a life when there is no valid reason to do so.

IMHO (for what it is worth): If they break into your home their intention is to do harm to you or your family (to think that they would break in to steal your stuff and will politely exit when asked is foolish) so holding them at gunpoint until the police arrive is acceptable. Killing them out of true fear for your life is acceptable. Killing them when there is no reasonable chance they can harm you or your family (e.g. shooting at a fleeing car) is unacceptable.

Praying that whatever your decision you are never put in the position of having to do it.

Thanks!

 

[Calgar]

Thou shall not murder/kill.

lol

Really? The Holy Bible has murder / kill in it?

It’s murder. And defending yourself or an innocent person is not murder.

 

[Brendan]

Thou shall not murder/kill.

Pope John Paul II addressed that in Evangelicum Vitae

Moreover, “legitimate defence can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life, the common good of the family or of the State”.44 Unfortunately it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose action brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason

 

[Newbie2]

Since we will be in a condo I was thinking a revolver(.38 special ) with ‘safety slugs’ (Hydra-shock or Glazer safety rounds) a better choice.

Bird shot.

Just remember that laws vary considerably from state to state. In many cases you are not legally allowed to defend your house–only people. In almost all situations, you are also only allowed to do what is necessary to stop someone from hurting a person. Once the threat is removed you should not be shooting. This is one of the cases where morality meets very nicely with the law.

Not to mention that you don’t necessarily have to actually hit an intruder; discharging a firearm in a closed space should be sufficient to scare most bad guys off, or at least make their ears ring. Or rack in a shell or pull back the hammer CLICK and give the Harry Callahan speech:

“…being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you’ve got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?”

Levity aside, methinks staring down the barrel of any sort of firearm has a dissuasive effect.

“Moreover, “legitimate defence can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life, the common good of the family or of the State” .44 Unfortunately it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose action brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason”

“.44”

 

[jonbhorton]

A few thoughts:

Keep it simple, sir (no whiz-bang features on the gun).

Keep it loaded (excuse mr. criminal, allow me the time with which to load the bullets I intend to put inside you at a high rate of speed).

Keep it accessible (but also out of reach of little ones).

Teach the little ones (age of reason/maturity).

DO NOT SHOOT OR DISCHARGE THE FIREARM WITHOUT THE EXPRESSED INTENT OF PUTTING DOWN THE TARGET, PERMANENTLY! Seriously. I read and CRINGE and people say things like “warning shots” or “just shoot to wound”. Screw that. If it’s worth discharging the firearm, shoot until the threat is neutralized, not writhing on the floor trying to remember his lawyer’s number to sue you for everything. Drywall does not make a great backstop. For some reason, human bodies typically do- ammo dependent.

Flashlight, have one. Bright. Do not do the stupid movie move of crossing the arms and displaying the light and weapon at the same height and place. Duh. Keep that light moving. People will shoot at the light, keep it away from your vital areas and keep it moving.

No one forces a criminal into your home, he makes the decision and deems the possible consequences worth the take. Educating him on the realities of said consequence is your duty as a husband and father.

Simple rule for a firefight which is easily translated to the family home at 0245 and strange bumps in the house- if you don’t know their first name, put em down.

 

[Newbie2]

A few thoughts:

Keep it simple, sir (no whiz-bang features on the gun).

Keep it loaded (excuse mr. criminal, allow me the time with which to load the bullets I intend to put inside you at a high rate of speed).

Keep it accessible (but also out of reach of little ones).

Teach the little ones (age of reason/maturity).

DO NOT SHOOT OR DISCHARGE THE FIREARM WITHOUT THE EXPRESSED INTENT OF PUTTING DOWN THE TARGET, PERMANENTLY! Seriously. I read and CRINGE and people say things like “warning shots” or “just shoot to wound”. Screw that. If it’s worth discharging the firearm, shoot until the threat is neutralized, not writhing on the floor trying to remember his lawyer’s number to sue you for everything. Drywall does not make a great backstop. For some reason, human bodies typically do- ammo dependent.

Flashlight, have one. Bright. Do not do the stupid movie move of crossing the arms and displaying the light and weapon at the same height and place. Duh. Keep that light moving. People will shoot at the light, keep it away from your vital areas and keep it moving.

No one forces a criminal into your home, he makes the decision and deems the possible consequences worth the take. Educating him on the realities of said consequence is your duty as a husband and father.

Simple rule for a firefight which is easily translated to the family home at 0245 and strange bumps in the house- if you don’t know their first name, put em down.

So…you’re advocating that the default is for homeowners to kill any intruder in their house? Or is this tongue-in-cheek? Not sure.

 

[jonbhorton]

So…you’re advocating that the default is for homeowners to kill any intruder in their house? Or is this tongue-in-cheek? Not sure.

If they cross my threshold and weren’t invited in, I’m using deadly force because they obviously took that possibility into consideration when they entered the residence, and deemed their nefarious plans worth the risk, thus leading me to believe the plan to, as at least a last means, use deadly force as well. In other words, I’m not gonna sit down with the miscreant and ask his feelings, what elitist mechanization him to this life of unfortunate crime, if he’d like me to testify on his behalf about how he was soooo apologetic for breaking into my residence, or any other manner of liberal nonsense. End up as the news story of the day if you want, but if it’s gotta happen, I’d like to be the one saying “no comment” as a body bag, not containing me or mine, is wheeled out of the front door.

However, I live in a free state where I am not obligated to vacate my own premises. For some others, that may be different. For some others, that may be irrelevant when some multiple-strikes violent felon is in their house.

Breaking and entering = dead.

 

[po18guy]

Thanks ! I was considering a used S&W model 586 .357 with full lug 4" barrel loaded with .38 spl Federal Hydra-shok JHP to prevent overpenetration.

One word: Glaser.

 

[po18guy]

Thou shall not murder/kill.

By stopping the felonious assailant (understanding that the use of lethal force may result in the loss of life), you are preventing him from comitting the mortal sin of murder. We have no moral authority to intentionally take another human life. We have the moral obligation to protect innocent life.

 

[JRKH]

A number of good points have been made on this thread…But I would just like to stress one thing.

Anyone seriously considering purchasing a firearm for protection needs to really REALLY consider carefully whether you have it in you to pull the trigger and take another human life.
To do so quickly and to do so skillfully and accurately. By that I mean, quick identification of the target (friend or foe) and decision to shoot or not shoot followed by firm execution of the decision.

It is not an easy thing…Please consider carefully…
As others have pointed out, one should not hesitate.
Those who deal with these sorts of things (trainers, Law Enforcement etc.) state that those who hesitate run a very high risk of having their firearm seized by the intruder and used against them.

I’m not taking a position one way or another on the matter of whether to own a gun or not…
All I’m saying is that a person needs to really consider carefully whether they would, in reality and under stress, be able to take the life of another person…
Then - if you DO feel that you could do this. Make sure you go and get the best training available.

Peace
James

 

[Calgar]

So…you’re advocating that the default is for homeowners to kill any intruder in their house? Or is this tongue-in-cheek? Not sure.

Are you being tongue-in-cheek? A person breaking into your home while you and/or your family are there is not there mistakenly. The threshold of my home is the point of no return.

In Texas it’s your property line. That was tongue-in-cheek. I think…

 

[yellow8yellowM]

It is not so black and white.

Let’s say you hear a bump in the night. You think someone has broke into your home. Your bedroom is upstairs and the upstairs hallway overlooks the downstairs living room. You see an unidentifiable person rummaging through your drawers down in the living room. They don’t appear to be armed, but you can’t tell for sure. Your twelve gauge is in hand with a shell in the chamber. You have a clear shot at them and they have no idea you are there. What do you do?

There is no right answer. If you turn on the light or yell at them, they may turn and instinctively shoot with the weapon you couldn’t see in the dark. They may kill you, leaving your wife and 2-year old daughter upstairs to fend for themselves. If you shoot without warning and without identifying the intruder, you may end up killing an unarmed burglar. Maybe it was your troubled 18 year old nephew who was looking for some money to buy some dope. Would you be willing to live with this?

It is not black and white. There is no right answer. Make sure you are ready to accept the consequences of your actions, whatever they may be.

Are you being tongue-in-cheek? A person breaking into your home while you and/or your family are there is not there mistakenly. The threshold of my home is the point of no return.

In Texas it’s your property line. That was tongue-in-cheek. I think…

 

[po18guy]

A number of good points have been made on this thread…But I would just like to stress one thing.

Anyone seriously considering purchasing a firearm for protection needs to really REALLY consider carefully whether you have it in you to pull the trigger and take another human life.
To do so quickly and to do so skillfully and accurately. By that I mean, quick identification of the target (friend or foe) and decision to shoot or not shoot followed by firm execution of the decision.

It is not an easy thing…Please consider carefully…
As others have pointed out, one should not hesitate.
Those who deal with these sorts of things (trainers, Law Enforcement etc.) state that those who hesitate run a very high risk of having their firearm seized by the intruder and used against them.

I’m not taking a position one way or another on the matter of whether to own a gun or not…
All I’m saying is that a person needs to really consider carefully whether they would, in reality and under stress, be able to take the life of another person…
Then - if you DO feel that you could do this. Make sure you go and get the best training available.

Peace
James

Taking human life is an easy thing to talk about. What follows, both legally and psychologically, is not so easy to discuss. I had numerous opportunities during my career, but the Lord spared me from having to make that decision. That was purely a blessing. Conversely, if one is not prepared to die and face immediate judgment when confronted by evil, then they must be prepared to defend their life at potential risk to the life of the assailant. It cuts both ways, and no one is left untouched when violence arrives.

 

[jonbhorton]

Taking human life is an easy thing to talk about. What follows, both legally and psychologically, is not so easy to discuss. I had numerous opportunities during my career, but the Lord spared me from having to make that decision. That was purely a blessing. Conversely, if one is not prepared to die and face immediate judgment when confronted by evil, then they must be prepared to defend their life at potential risk to the life of the assailant. It cuts both ways, and no one is left untouched when violence arrives.

+1000

When I was still in, my running joke for what I wanted for Christmas was “world peace and a confirmed kill”. I am eternally thankful I did not end up making that decision. How I went through 2 tours, in the job I had, and didn’t kill someone is beyond my understanding. I recall one time where I had a guy just feet from me and he would not listen to my instructions. He was carrying a bag. He was an older fellow, maybe 60’s, early 70’s. All my training said “shoot!” but I could see that the contents of the bag was vegetables. It was a tense day anyway. I could have done him and had it be all totally legit under ROE. I just didn’t, conscience wouldn’t let me. It would have been murder, not a good shoot. But there were other times I did fire warning shots and after the first, reticle was on the chest. Again, how every single one of those incidents played out positively, I don’t know. I just thank God.

But, I do know that if I am placed in a situation where I have to decide, I’ll make the right decision. And in doing so, while it will be an unknown after effect, I’ll offer up prayers for the deceased and that’s that, if the decision is shoot.

All that being said, I ain’t gonna second guess anyone I don’t know in my residence.

 

[Rand2410]

One word: Glaser.

Exactly my thought.

 

[Buck_Crosswhite]

Is it acceptable for Roman Catholics to own fire arms that would be used to defend their home and family?

Background: I currently live in a very small town in NY. Our little hamlet has had three murders in 30 years and almost no other violent crimes. Due to my families financial position and the rising costs of living in NY ( on Long Island) we will be forced to relocate to a new state(a cheaper place to live). It is my position that being in a unfamiliar town, I would feel a certain amount of comfort knowing I have a firearm** ( loaded and in a tap-style lock box)** with which to defend my new home and my wife ( our children are grown and out of the house). I am comfortable with firearms and did enjoy shooting as a sport in the past.

So . . . keeping the 10 Commandments in mind , is it “acceptable” for a catholic to own a firearm with the knowledge that some day he/she could someday use that weapon to defend their family and possibly take a human life?

If it’s in a lock box you’re better off to have a bucket of rocks to throw in a convenient position.