Catholics and illegal immigration

[Elizabeth502]

Hi, Elizabeth502,

This was a profoundly moving post …

God bless you for your sensitivity & receptivity to the complexities of the issue.

I was not aware of English speakers being taught in a foreign language in US schools. That is truly a very sad arrangement.

Sad would be a moral understatement. From both a Catholic and a humanistic point of view, it is a moral outrage: a profound injustice that no practicing Catholic should be supporting as some kind of rough-justice 'trade-off." That is not a priniciple of Catholic moral theology (decision-making).

As a nation we have made it very difficult for many to join the ‘melting pot’ - actually, such a concept is hopelessly outdated and shows a desire for unity of peoples as it forms a national unity. Here we celebrate in ‘diversity’ in ways that are acting as a wedge to us coming together as a people to address what would usually be considered national goals and solving national problems.

Absolutely…Although naturally that was not the focus of my response: I was addressing the question of justice for the poor, and the myopia of many who assume that the poor exist only in other lands than ours. This is, by the way, an embarrassingly outdated concept – speaking of outdated. It was 40 years ago that the common mythology within Mexico (for example) was that ‘the streets were paved with gold’ north of them. I don’t mean just relatively speaking. (Because it may seem like, and “be” like that, for some of the underclass rural poor of Mexico – that our poor live in comparative “comfort” vs. Mexico.) But the mythology was that it was easy and quick to get rich in the U.S., and that every American was well off.

To hear some people talk on this thread, their brains are stuck back in the outdated mythology vs. the real-economik [invented term] in 21st century America.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Neum334,

You really need to get over this. Honest. Not only doesn’t every see things your way, but they do not express themselves in the same way you do. Look at any of the posts on this thread - no one is expressing sickening feelings for the expressed ideas of others. Sarcasm, cynacism and hyperbole are all legitimate forms of making one’s position known.

You are correct, I do not have all of the facts -and, this is truly a complex topic. It is also a topic that we all can learn some about from others who do not share our own views. If you found the FoxNews and FAIR material biased and in error then really they need to be notified to get the facts straight. I chose them because they have informaiton to offer. They are not the entire market place of ideas - just a part of it.

What I had asked for was documentation on the Catholic Church’s condemnation of US Immigration Law. You provided a link the US Catholic Bishops which offered why they think the US laws are flawed and are causeing problems - but, this is not a condemnation.

The other two links simply did not express the official teachings of the Catholic Church on this matter and, in my view, were biased. As I recall, I thanked you for the link to the US Catholic Bishops. I read the material and posted my comments about them.

If you wish to comment on this, great. Such sharing of ideas is what moves threads forward. Comments about your on-going health problems would best be reserved for a new thread… or your physician… Buck up and keep to the topic.

God bless

tqualey,
You claim to be objective, but admit you don’t know all the facts, which should include anecdotes of real people this affects. That’s why I found your sarcasm sickening. The links you posted from FoxNews and FAIR weren’t exactly unbiased outlets either, even with the misleading statistics they offer.

That said, many laws were made in the interest of public safety after the horrible actions of a relative few, be it banning private residences from blowing up fireworks, late night curfews, the speed limit, and so on. The majority of people who are apprehended for disobeying them may not feel they did something wrong as long as they didn’t hurt anybody, but at least the punishment, unlike deportation, is not life-shattering.

Illegal immigration is still a civil offense, so I wasn’t surprised to read about campaigns to make it a crime by considering it a form of criminal trespassing. That just goes to prove that the punishment currently seen as disproportionate to the offense, and the solution for some is to raise the rating of the offense rather than mitigate the punishment.

 

[Blacksword]

You are correct, I do not have all of the facts -and, this is truly a complex topic. It is also a topic that we all can learn some about from others who do not share our own views. If you found the FoxNews and FAIR material biased and in error then really they need to be notified to get the facts straight. I chose them because they have informaiton to offer. They are not the entire market place of ideas - just a part of it.

I thought I would chime in here. No matter how many times these issues come up, and they have and I’ve already written on much of this extensively in these forums, they seem to keep coming up.

First, at the outset, I’m an immigration attorney, working with a variety of clients from small businesses, individuals, to universities, scholars and world-leading research institutions, all the way up to some of the largest multi-national corporations in the world. I’ve been practicing immigration law for 10 years now, so, please accept a few things I have to say as coming from, by the standards of the typical American anyway, an expert.

First off, FAIR is an anti-immigrant outfit, and virtually nothing they say can be believed. They have, as among their STATED aims, the goal of reducing immigration to the U.S. (legal or otherwise), and eliminating some of the most cherished family based preferences entirely.

This thread is too long to read every bit of misinformation and respond to all or know which ones may have been dealt with already, but suffice it to say these basic facts:

1. Being in the U.S. without legal status is NOT a criminal offense. It’s a civil offense in nature, like speeding or running a red light, only with DRASTIC consequences on that person’s future immigration prospects to the U.S.;
2. Undocumented immigrants are ineligible for welfare or state benefits, and almost none have found any backdoor ways to getting them, this is a myth;
3. Undocumented immigrants contribute billions in tax revenue every year, billions to Social Security, and most actually do pay taxes by obtaining an ITIN;
4. Undocumented immigrants commit crimes at a FAR, FAR lower rate than native U.S. citizens;
5. The largest, most respected macro-economic studies on the economic effects of illegal immigration show that undocumented workers provide an overall modest net benefit, or at worst, no net effect at all on the American economy;
6. Our current labor needs CLEARLY and consistently show that we require several million temporary or seasonal agricultural workers for farming each year, as well as having severe shortages of labor in construction, meat processing and packing, landscaping, and other lower wage labor-based occupations, yet there is currently NO viable nonimmigrant visa avenue to meet these needs. We have the H-2B visa for seasonal workers which allows for only 66,000 visas a year, and is SERIOUSLY flawed in its regulatory framework, and that’s it for legal options;
7. English language proficiency IS already a requirement for U.S. citizenship;
8. Hundreds of undocumented entrants die a horrible death every year in the deserts of the American southwest trying to make the arduous journey here. Virtually all of them would greatly prefer the option of simply applying for a well-implemented nonimmigrant work visa appropriate for their skills and enter legally;
9. Every year, our federal budget allocated to Customs and Border Protection operations has increased, we spend billions a year, and deport record numbers of foreign nationals, yet the undocumented population grows. The only thing now modestly lowering it of late has been our own economic collapse;
10. The vast, vast majority of undocumented immigrants enter the U.S. as economic refugees, coming for the sole reason of desperation, in the attempt to find viable sustaining work in order to FEED THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES;
11. Deporting the estimated 12 million undocumented immigrants in the U.S. today would cost an estimated $230 billion, and would take years to accomplish;
12. Undocumented immigrants and their children are integrating into American society at about the EXACT SAME rate as have all other previous immigrant groups. That is, the first generation speaks their own language and remains essentially foreign, their children are strongly American in identity and are bilingual, and their grandchildren are wholly American and linguistically dead in their previous native language. This appears to be happening the same now as it did with the Germans of the late 18th Century, the Irish and Chinese of the 19th Century, and the Jews, Russians, Poles, Italians, and East Europeans of the 20th.

A few questions emerge on the basis of these facts: what lengths would you go to if you were starving? What if your children were starving? Did Jean Valjean deserve his 19 years in prison over the stolen loaf of bread? And make no mistake, he did STEAL that bread! Based on our actual national labor needs, the net benefit the population is actually providing, and the objective evidence of abject failure of our current enforcement policies over the last 15 years or so, as well as the glaring deficiencies in our current immigration laws, what course makes the most sense? Our system is broken; it is dysfunctional and serves NEITHER the needs of would-be immigrants NOR our nation and its people.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Blacksword,

Thank you for your post.

While there are a couple of items I really do have questions about … let’s skip to the chase with 2 questions:

1.) Why did the 1986 Immigration Act fail?

2.) What is the solution to ILLEGAL immigration in the US?

God bless

I thought I would chime in here. No matter how many times these issues come up, and they have and I’ve already written on much of this extensively in these forums, they seem to keep coming up.

First, at the outset, I’m an immigration attorney, working with a variety of clients from small businesses, individuals, to universities, scholars and world-leading research institutions, all the way up to some of the largest multi-national corporations in the world. I’ve been practicing immigration law for 10 years now, so, please accept a few things I have to say as coming from, by the standards of the typical American anyway, an expert.

First off, FAIR is an anti-immigrant outfit, and virtually nothing they say can be believed. They have, as among their STATED aims, the goal of reducing immigration to the U.S. (legal or otherwise), and eliminating some of the most cherished family based preferences entirely.

This thread is too long to read every bit of misinformation and respond to all or know which ones may have been dealt with already, but suffice it to say these basic facts:

1. Being in the U.S. without legal status is NOT a criminal offense. It’s a civil offense in nature, like speeding or running a red light, only with DRASTIC consequences on that person’s future immigration prospects to the U.S.;
2. Undocumented immigrants are ineligible for welfare or state benefits, and almost none have found any backdoor ways to getting them, this is a myth;
3. Undocumented immigrants contribute billions in tax revenue every year, billions to Social Security, and most actually do pay taxes by obtaining an ITIN;
4. Undocumented immigrants commit crimes at a FAR, FAR lower rate than native U.S. citizens;
5. The largest, most respected macro-economic studies on the economic effects of illegal immigration show that undocumented workers provide an overall modest net benefit, or at worst, no net effect at all on the American economy;
6. Our current labor needs CLEARLY and consistently show that we require several million temporary or seasonal agricultural workers for farming each year, as well as having severe shortages of labor in construction, meat processing and packing, landscaping, and other lower wage labor-based occupations, yet there is currently NO viable nonimmigrant visa avenue to meet these needs. We have the H-2B visa for seasonal workers which allows for only 66,000 visas a year, and is SERIOUSLY flawed in its regulatory framework, and that’s it for legal options;
7. English language proficiency IS already a requirement for U.S. citizenship;
8. Hundreds of undocumented entrants die a horrible death every year in the deserts of the American southwest trying to make the arduous journey here. Virtually all of them would greatly prefer the option of simply applying for a well-implemented nonimmigrant work visa appropriate for their skills and enter legally;
9. Every year, our federal budget allocated to Customs and Border Protection operations has increased, we spend billions a year, and deport record numbers of foreign nationals, yet the undocumented population grows. The only thing now modestly lowering it of late has been our own economic collapse;
10. The vast, vast majority of undocumented immigrants enter the U.S. as economic refugees, coming for the sole reason of desperation, in the attempt to find viable sustaining work in order to FEED THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES;
11. Deporting the estimated 12 million undocumented immigrants in the U.S. today would cost an estimated $230 billion, and would take years to accomplish;
12. Undocumented immigrants and their children are integrating into American society at about the EXACT SAME rate as have all other previous immigrant groups. That is, the first generation speaks their own language and remains essentially foreign, their children are strongly American in identity and are bilingual, and their grandchildren are wholly American and linguistically dead in their previous native language. This appears to be happening the same now as it did with the Germans of the late 18th Century, the Irish and Chinese of the 19th Century, and the Jews, Russians, Poles, Italians, and East Europeans of the 20th.

A few questions emerge on the basis of these facts: what lengths would you go to if you were starving? What if your children were starving? Did Jean Valjean deserve his 19 years in prison over the stolen loaf of bread? And make no mistake, he did STEAL that bread! Based on our actual national labor needs, the net benefit the population is actually providing, and the objective evidence of abject failure of our current enforcement policies over the last 15 years or so, as well as the glaring deficiencies in our current immigration laws, what course makes the most sense? Our system is broken; it is dysfunctional and serves NEITHER the needs of would-be immigrants NOR our nation and its people.

 

[Blacksword]

Hi, Blacksword,

Thank you for your post.

While there are a couple of items I really do have questions about … let’s skip to the chase with 2 questions:

1.) Why did the 1986 Immigration Act fail?

2.) What is the solution to ILLEGAL immigration in the US?

God bless

The 1986 Act failed because it did nothing to actually address the underlying macro-economic and geo-socio-political reasons causing illegal immigration. It provided no reforms or introductions of necessary nonimmigrant work visas in appropriate labor areas, it provided no relief for the twenty-plus year backlogs in immigrant visa numbers for relatives such as adult children of US citizens, brothers and sisters of US citizens, etc. We continued needing labor only undocumented immigrants are willing to give and yet provided no way for them to enter legally. Fix that and you fix the system.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The 1986 Act failed because it did nothing to actually address the underlying macro-economic and geo-socio-political reasons causing illegal immigration. It provided no reforms or introductions of necessary nonimmigrant work visas in appropriate labor areas, it provided no relief for the twenty-plus year backlogs in immigrant visa numbers for relatives such as adult children of US citizens, brothers and sisters of US citizens, etc. We continued needing labor only undocumented immigrants are willing to give and no way for them to enter legally. Fix that and you fix the system.

I take issue only with the part of your post that I bolded. Employment in the hospitality industry, as well as employment in construction and general contracting, were two areas that US citizens have only been too willing to give. I don’t have information on whether non-illegal-immigrant employees in hotels, etc. have been affected by massive influxes of undocumented workers in areas such as the Southwest. I do know that hospitality work and restaurant work used to be a standard avenue of employment for lower-middle-class resident blacks. Again, I do not have information about affected numbers.

However, black-owned and white-owned (residents, both) construction companies have been hugely and manifestly hurt in regions where illegal immigration has reached a very high level. Many companies owned by residents have had to shut down, their workers laid off (affecting the US economy and local economies and the ripple effect on social services) due to basement wages being offered to competing undocumented workers.

Now, I will accept an argument that says that employers willing to hire at such under-cut rates are the real villains here. I am merely disputing your contention that US workers are not willing to do most of the jobs, let alone any of the jobs, that illegal workers now do.

By the way, only about 3% of illegal residents work in our agricultural industry (the fields). The vast majority do not work in California’s Central Valley, but in the industries named above, and/or in private household work. Increasingly, they are choosing industries as opposed to private households. (Another area that legal residents are quite willing to be employed in, although they often ask for higher wages.)

 

[Blacksword]

I take issue only with the part of your post that I bolded. Employment in the hospitality industry, as well as employment in construction and general contracting, were two areas that US citizens have only been too willing to give. I don’t have information on whether non-illegal-immigrant employees in hotels, etc. have been affected by massive influxes of undocumented workers in areas such as the Southwest. I do know that hospitality work and restaurant work used to be a standard avenue of employment for lower-middle-class resident blacks. Again, I do not have information about affected numbers.

However, black-owned and white-owned (residents, both) construction companies have been hugely and manifestly hurt in regions where illegal immigration has reached a very high level. Many companies owned by residents have had to shut down, their workers laid off (affecting the US economy and local economies and the ripple effect on social services) due to basement wages being offered to competing undocumented workers.

Now, I will accept an argument that says that employers willing to hire at such under-cut rates are the real villains here. I am merely disputing your contention that US workers are not willing to do most of the jobs, let alone any of the jobs, that illegal workers now do.

By the way, only about 3% of illegal residents work in our agricultural industry (the fields). The vast majority do not work in California’s Central Valley, but in the industries named above, and/or in private household work. Increasingly, they are choosing industries as opposed to private households. (Another area that legal residents are quite willing to be employed in, although they often ask for higher wages.)

The economic data overall indicates that undocumented workers have a modest negative effect on wages of lower income earners, but again, things re-shuffle and the net effect is a benefit, even if some of that re-shuffling is painful to some. As to the stat about 3% of undocumenteds being agricultural workers, I’m not sure where you’re getting that stat, though I wont outright say that’s wrong. What I will say is that the undocumented population makes up the overwhelming majority of our temporary and seasonal agricultural workforce. Around 70-85%, with most others being legal relatives and family members of said undocumenteds or leagalized persons who used to be illegal but qualified for 245(i) or another narrow legalization avenue unavailable to those here now without status.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The economic data overall indicates that undocumented workers have a modest negative effect on wages of lower income earners, but again, things re-shuffle and the net effect is a benefit, even if some of that re-shuffling is painful to some.

#1 - “painful” is a euphemism. Job displacement to legal workers is a form of injustice, not mere “pain.”

#2 - I’ll buy the ‘modest [wages] negative effect’ (without conceding to the concept of violations against justice for legal residents) employment wise, but the fact is, that tells only a part of the story. The entire economic effect is much bigger than that. (The economic “footprint.”) According to the Pew Center’s most recent study, the economic effect of illegal immigration to the U.S. is now, compositely, more negative than positive to the country’s economic health.

 

[Blacksword]

#1 - “painful” is a euphemism. Job displacement to legal workers is a form of injustice, not mere “pain.”

#2 - I’ll buy the ‘modest [wages] negative effect’ (without conceding to the concept of violations against justice for legal residents) employment wise, but the fact is, that tells only a part of the story. The entire economic effect is much bigger than that. (The economic “footprint.”) According to the Pew Center’s most recent study, the economic effect of illegal immigration to the U.S. is now, compositely, more negative than positive to the country’s economic health.

To point one, sure. Now go after the people responsible for the injustice: OUR GREEDY fellow American citizen employers and companies! The undocumented workers are remaining exploited and badly mistreated workers, it’s the American company or business owner taking advantage of them and screwing his fellow Americans at the same time, so be righteously angry with them, not the desperate undocumented laborer. They have no voice, no power, and little recourse in this game.

To the second point: Whaaa??? Please point me to such a study by the Pew Center. Even were this contention correct, and the economic data strongly suggests it’s not, a study from the Pew Center finding this would be about as stunning as a study from Planned Parenthood finding that abortion causes breast cancer!! Though I find much of their research in immigration insightful and fairly good, they are clearly strongly advocating on behalf of undocumenteds, and so such a finding from them would be really amazing.

 

[exnihilo]

1. The largest, most respected macro-economic studies on the economic effects of illegal immigration show that undocumented workers provide an overall modest net benefit, or at worst, no net effect at all on the American economy;
2. Our current labor needs CLEARLY and consistently show that we require several million temporary or seasonal agricultural workers for farming each year, as well as having severe shortages of labor in construction, meat processing and packing, landscaping, and other lower wage labor-based occupations, yet there is currently NO viable nonimmigrant visa avenue to meet these needs. We have the H-2B visa for seasonal workers which allows for only 66,000 visas a year, and is SERIOUSLY flawed in its regulatory framework, and that’s it for legal options;

We have 10% unemployment. We have a massive government deficit due in part to welfare payments and providing lots of education, including college. This just doesn’t make sense at all.

 

[karebear92]

We have 10% unemployment. We have a massive government deficit due in part to welfare payments and providing lots of education, including college. This just doesn’t make sense at all.

What are you talking about here? The government providing money for education, particularly college education for citizens, or just immigrants (legal and illegal)? Either way, an immigrant’s college education is just as valuable as a non-immigrant’s college education. Without pell grants and things of that nature, many poor, yet deserving Americans would not be able to attend college. That seriously hampers America’s claim to equal opportunity and would be terrible for both the the economy and the government in the long run.

 

[Elizabeth502]

an immigrant’s college education is just as valuable as a non-immigrant’s college education.

But a non-immigrant’s college education is something he or she is jurisdictionally and morally entitled to within his own particular country (as opposed to immigrants being generally entitled to education abstractly, or internationally). Someone who – or whose parents – usurped & deceived their way into residency has less of a moral claim on public funds for education, versus students competing for those same seats and those same funds. I have less of a problem with private colleges deciding to look the other way as long as the undocumented student pays for every dime of that education and gets zero governmental aid (which legal residents pay for).

 

[karebear92]

But a non-immigrant’s college education is something he or she is jurisdictionally and morally entitled to within his own particular country (as opposed to immigrants being generally entitled to education abstractly, or internationally). Someone who – or whose parents – usurped & deceived their way into residency has less of a moral claim on public funds for education, versus students competing for those same seats and those same funds. I have less of a problem with private colleges deciding to look the other way as long as the undocumented student pays for every dime of that education and gets zero governmental aid (which legal residents pay for).

If you say that education funds are something Americans are entitled to more so than anyone else then you will run into a problem. Why is one American more entitled to the money than another? Why should an economically disadvantaged student get a full ride while having poorer grades than I, while I have to take out loans because my parents make more money than theirs. My parents pay much more into the system than theirs, so shouldn’t I be more entitled to the money than they? I don’t believe so.

The money is given to those who need it and deserve it. If an immigrant has the grades to go to college, they worked just as hard and deserve the opportunity just as much as any American.

 

[exnihilo]

What are you talking about here? The government providing money for education, particularly college education for citizens, or just immigrants (legal and illegal)? Either way, an immigrant’s college education is just as valuable as a non-immigrant’s college education. Without pell grants and things of that nature, many poor, yet deserving Americans would not be able to attend college. That seriously hampers America’s claim to equal opportunity and would be terrible for both the the economy and the government in the long run.

I am talking about the government ‘educating’ every citizen so that they are too good for labor. And thus needing illegal labor.

I am talking about the government subsidizing Americans to get degrees in pseudo social sciences while importing immigrants with hard science degrees because we *need *that education. Then those with pseudo social science degrees cant find a job and collect unemployment and welfare. So the government pays for a worthless education and the fruits of it.

The government also pays for immigrant college educations, legal and illegal. We let the illegals in because we need unskilled labor (because we are paying Americans not to work) and then educate them thus needing more unskilled labor. We tax citizens to pay for immigrant college education, mostly occurring at government universities, and then flood the labor market with these immigrants who drive down wages.

I’m talking about the insanity of this mess.

 

[karebear92]

I am talking about the government ‘educating’ every citizen so that they are too good for labor. And thus needing illegal labor.

I am talking about the government subsidizing Americans to get degrees in pseudo social sciences while importing immigrants with hard science degrees because we *need *that education. Then those with pseudo social science degrees cant find a job and collect unemployment and welfare. So the government pays for a worthless education and the fruits of it.

The government also pays for immigrant college educations, legal and illegal. We let the illegals in because we need unskilled labor (because we are paying Americans not to work) and then educate them thus needing more unskilled labor. We tax citizens to pay for immigrant college education, mostly occurring at government universities, and then flood the labor market with these immigrants who drive down wages.

I’m talking about the insanity of this mess.

Having a college degree does not make one less able to do manual labor. A college degree simply allows those with the skill and determination to better themselves. An unemployed scientist can build a house or harvest crops just as well as he could before he went to college. That is a problem with our belief system, not the government. If one is overqualified for a job, that does not make them less capable of performing it, nor should they sit unemployed because they feel they are not receiving enough respect for their education.

 

[exnihilo]

Having a college degree does not make one less able to do manual labor. A college degree simply allows those with the skill and determination to better themselves. An unemployed scientist can build a house or harvest crops just as well as he could before he went to college. That is a problem with our belief system, not the government. If one is overqualified for a job, that does not make them less capable of performing it.

I agree it does not. But then why dont we have the out of work college educated folks doing the work we have illegals doing? I would suggest because you can get more money for more education or just welfare and that is better than the other option of working hard doing unpleasant work for less money.

 

[Blacksword]

I am talking about the government ‘educating’ every citizen so that they are too good for labor. And thus needing illegal labor.

I am talking about the government subsidizing Americans to get degrees in pseudo social sciences while importing immigrants with hard science degrees because we *need *that education. Then those with pseudo social science degrees cant find a job and collect unemployment and welfare. So the government pays for a worthless education and the fruits of it.

The government also pays for immigrant college educations, legal and illegal. We let the illegals in because we need unskilled labor (because we are paying Americans not to work) and then educate them thus needing more unskilled labor. We tax citizens to pay for immigrant college education, mostly occurring at government universities, and then flood the labor market with these immigrants who drive down wages.

I’m talking about the insanity of this mess.

Your frustration is to some degree understandable, but the fact that lazy out of work Americans are in large numbers unwilling to bath and feed our seniors, build our buildins, clean and landscape our homes, can our goods, pick our cotton, farm our land, harvest our crops, or pack and process our meat and poultry isn’t the fault of undocumenteds who WILL.

 

[karebear92]

I agree it does not. But then why dont we have the out of work college educated folks doing the work we have illegals doing? I would suggest because you can get more money for more education or just welfare and that is better than the other option of working hard doing unpleasant work for less money.

Yeah, but I would ay that this has little to do with illegal immigrants, but, rather, illegal immigration is a result of a poor American attitude. The reason college graduates don’t is because they feel overqualified for doing such work. Once again, this is a problem with American attitude rather than illegal immigration. You can not blame the result. You must blame the cause. You can’t blame the illegal immigrants who are willing to do the work Americans feel they are above.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Your frustration is to some degree understandable, but the fact that lazy out of work Americans are in large numbers unwilling to bath and feed our seniors, build our buildins, clean and landscape our homes, can our goods, pick our cotton, farm our land, harvest our crops, or pack and process our meat and poultry isn’t the fault of undocumenteds who WILL.

Of the jobs listed (at minimum), people other than undocumented immigrants are quite willing to do many of those jobs, especially those bolded.

 

[Blacksword]

Of the jobs listed (at minimum), people other than undocumented immigrants are quite willing to do many of those jobs, especially those bolded.

No, they aren’t. Not in nearly sufficient numbers to meet the actual labor needs. Especially when we need millions of such jobs, and we STILL have major shortages of jobs like farm workers nationally despite employing undocumenteds in large numbers!