Catholics and illegal immigration

[tqualey]

Hi, AntaKalnoky,

This is an amazing rant you have provided here.

So, if I understand you correctly, the faulty US Tax code - which has made the wealthy become the wealthiest at the expense of everyone else - had taken jobs 3 out of 4 jobs from the US and brought them to foreign countries. Their near-treasonable actions have actually caused an increase in illegal immigration - seeking the 1 US job these companies created.

As these companies have grown richer - aided in no small measure by Tea Party members who decry the $14.4 Trillion debt that will soon bankrupt our country - the poor immigrants have grown poorer and now are facing more enforcement of immigration laws.

After reading your post, all I could conclude was that Socialism is all that can save us from the destruction of our country. Now, maybe I am in error on this … so, please, tell me, just what is the remedy (other than tax the wealthiest into total submission or bankrupcy - whichever comes first!)

God bless

Unemployment is the new standard after the Enrich-The-Richest policies of the 1980’s and 2000’s. Are you not aware that those adminstrations Exported U.S. Companies and especially Jobs to Other Nations, Subsidized (Welfared) by us Taxpayers? There are 5 People trying for every Job available in the USA now. Our Nation’s Richest and most profitable Corporations, flush with incredible wealth, are creating 4 Jobs overseas for every one in the USA currently. It’s not the Poorerst, but the Richest That Are the problem after the Radical Economic Policies of 2001-2009.

                                                                                                                     Why  did we  pay  $100  Million welfare  to the   the  Largest  Profits  corporation  in the world last year,  while That   Mega-Profit  Corporation  paid No  USA    Income  or Profits  tax:  Exxon-Mobil?   The   answer  are the  Chaney  2001  Enrich the Richest New  laws,  that the    Tea  Party  has   destroyed the    Credit-worthines of the USA  last few  weeks  To  Prevent   any Tax  Payments  or  stopping  Massive  Welfare the The  Richest!  That was The   Issue:  No  Tax  increases  on the Richest  (Over  $250  k  Profits)  Only.   Why  does our Media   and Poltiscians  avoid that giant  topic?  Because the few  Mega-Rich  now  control  even Congress.

• Why has the actually Booming USA economy of the 1990’s with full USA employment of 4.5%, and Massive Federal Supluses, massive profits Businesses, been Reversed in 2001, with slashed taxes and Free-Market unregulated Big Finance? Exactly to Tranfer USA Wealth and Welfare to the Very Richest, most profitable few, proven by All Data.
  ** The Way it was done was Propagandizing Against Taxes and Welfare. We Are permanently suffering the Results, incurable now. The Media mogul who Repeated Those themes is now facing Criminal Staff Charges, and FBI/Justice invesdtigations here also. His Theme: Communist Socialism conspiracy here is the Threat to 1776 policies.* [SIGN] Fallen for those lines? Opposite of the Social Teaching of Our Lord and His Church

. USCCB “Faithful Citizenship”
[/SIGN]

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Blacksword,

Not to put too fine a point on this - but, what do you base this on?

A few things here need to be stated:

First, Latin American immigrants, legal and not, are assimilating and learning English at about the same rate as have all prior immigrant groups, and the research on this overwhelmingly confirms this fact. Generally, it is not the first generation that becomes fluent and American, but their children, and especially their grandchildren…

From what I reember from my Grandfather (I’m 3rd generation Irish) they were not taught in Galic, they did not have federally mandated signs written in English and Galic and they were actively encouraged to learn English. This does not mean that there were not places like “Little Ireland” or “Little Italy” etc - but, the children had to conform to US standards and were taught in English

Our US government has gone to great lenghts to make Spanish the unofficial language of the country. You just have to ask yourslef how the French and German and Philipinos lost out in not getting their language also adopted in US Code…

Considering that Elizabeth just may know what she is talking about - our efforts at educating children in a language they can not succeed in - surely must point the way to a failed system where assimilation is but a wish and not a reality.

Because of the fluid nature of these populations - I just do not see how there can be any hard, objective and accurate data from which to make a statement as you have done. I guess assimiliation will eventually come - but, the idea of have one country is that you have citizens who pull together for the commonweal. You can not do this while waving the flag for this kind of diversity.

God bless

 

[laymonk]

You take offense too easily or perhaps insincerely. The comparison illustrates a valid point regarding a standard of acceptance.

“You take offense too easily or perhaps insincerely. The comparison illustrates a valid point regarding a standard of acceptance.”
I have to agree this is a good anology. Three generations ago my great-great-great grandparents came to the US through Ellis Island, one from England the other from Poland and this side had to learn English as a requirement to becoming citizens. The citizenship test given today is not that much different from three generations ago. Many came to the states and did not bother to become citizens, kept their native language but did become active members of the communities they settled in, many even taking up arms to defend their new found home. This discussion comes under the ‘social justice’ link but it could also very well be in the ‘moral’ discussion link as immigration is now both a social and moral issue. My minor studies in college was in Sociology and we spent a great deal of time on this issue just as much time was spent on the topic in my Morality and Ethics courses.
hope to contribute more on this topic later.
God bless
laymonk

 

[Blacksword]

Hi, Blacksword,

Not to put too fine a point on this - but, what do you base this on?

From what I reember from my Grandfather (I’m 3rd generation Irish) they were not taught in Galic, they did not have federally mandated signs written in English and Galic and they were actively encouraged to learn English. This does not mean that there were not places like “Little Ireland” or “Little Italy” etc - but, the children had to conform to US standards and were taught in English

Our US government has gone to great lenghts to make Spanish the unofficial language of the country. You just have to ask yourslef how the French and German and Philipinos lost out in not getting their language also adopted in US Code…

Considering that Elizabeth just may know what she is talking about - our efforts at educating children in a language they can not succeed in - surely must point the way to a failed system where assimilation is but a wish and not a reality.

Because of the fluid nature of these populations - I just do not see how there can be any hard, objective and accurate data from which to make a statement as you have done. I guess assimiliation will eventually come - but, the idea of have one country is that you have citizens who pull together for the commonweal. You can not do this while waving the flag for this kind of diversity.

God bless

On studies, the U.S. Census data, objective reality. Try these links:

azstarnet.com/news/national/article_6303be19-d3a3-5b82-b230-9bff9b41d4c4.html

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/11/AR2006061100922.html

This took a five second Google Search to find. The information is out there, and pretty easily accessible.

 

[Elizabeth502]

From what I reember from my Grandfather (I’m 3rd generation Irish) they were not taught in Galic, they did not have federally mandated signs written in English and Galic and they were actively encouraged to learn English. This does not mean that there were not places like “Little Ireland” or “Little Italy” etc - but, the children had to conform to US standards and were taught in English

Our US government has gone to great lenghts to make Spanish the unofficial language of the country. You just have to ask yourslef how the French and German and Philipinos lost out in not getting their language also adopted in US Code…

Considering that Elizabeth just may know what she is talking about - our efforts at educating children in a language they can not succeed in - surely must point the way to a failed system where assimilation is but a wish and not a reality.

Because of the fluid nature of these populations - I just do not see how there can be any hard, objective and accurate data from which to make a statement as you have done. I guess assimiliation will eventually come - but, the idea of have one country is that you have citizens who pull together for the commonweal. You can not do this while waving the flag for this kind of diversity.

[bolding mine]
Precisely, Tom. It’s not just the fluid nature of these populations, and the increasingly greater mobility of those populations within the country, but the difficulty in finding currently relevant data. For example, nothing very current, data-wise, exists in my region for a variety of reasons, some of these political reasons, but more often practical/logistical. Sometimes illegal immigrants settle briefly, then move out to “greener pastures” if finding sufficent work in an incredibly crowded market with literally a million other people with the same (low) skills as you have, competing for the market share within a population which overall lacks spending money, becomes impossible! This is a relatively new trend, as immigrants, both legal and illegal, go. Up until about 10 years ago, most immigrants stayed in about the same place, or at least the same region, for quite some time. Now, with greater competition in the same market(s), for the same services, they have begun to move into new locations relative to their historical choices.

In any case, I want to state how much I appreciate your reasoned voice here and your willingness to examine why the assumptions of “no harm” or “trivial effect” are not true in all cases. National surveys, by the way, are pretty meaningless. Economies are local for the most part. So are social services, so are institutions like hospitals and schools. So is the language effect. Etc. The effect in my region has been massive and, with regard to some aspects of daily living, severe, especially to other low-skilled minorities. The Israelis figured out years ago that critical mass makes a huge difference in governance (when discussing their situation vis-a-vis Palestinians within Israel, etc.) and in daily living.

It does not mean that Catholics are free to disregard moral guidance about migration from the bishops, as a matter of principle. It means that the impact of immigration varies with region, upon those whose needs we are equally bound to consider, given the very statements of our Church and the Gospel. The poor have no one to speak for them. Money talks in this country. You can buy lobbying; you can buy an audience with your local representative; you can appear to “matter” to those with influence. My job, as an educator, is to commit to my underserved students, including those overwhelmed by sheer population sizes which silence them both in language and in numbers. Nor is it something I can “deal with later” once an entire generation of immigrants has learned English. My students are students now. Their needs are now. Any other response than that is immoral. God knows it. My conscience knows it.

God bless.

 

[Tigg]

Incorrect, Ender. The USCCB Position, Policy statements are their Official Church pronouncennts, For Our Guidance. on Issues, problems. That is Why They are the USCCB. Their Declarations arethose of The Cathoolic Church of the USA, in accord with the Vatican’s. If we think, act contrary, we are Rejecting the Catholic Church. The Curch does not get involved in Politics, It does issue Morality Positions we should not reject, for Our viewpoints, which usually lack if we disagree.

This is an incorrect statement. In and only of themselves, as a collective body, they do not constitute the Magisterium of the Church. The Vatican has made it clear that bishops conferences like the USCCB do NOT speak for the Church in an official capacity. These conferences are administrative and bureaucratic in nature and the letters they publish carry no weight with regard to the teaching of the faith.

“We must not forget that episcopal conferences have no theological basis, they do not belong to the structure of the Church as willed by Christ, that cannot be eliminated; they have only a practical, concrete function…The **collective, therefore, does not substitute for the persons of the bishops, who are the authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the faithful entrusted to their care…No episcopal conference, as such, has a teaching mission: its documents have no weight of their own save that of the consent given to them by the individual bishops.” **

**~The Ratzinger Report, pg 59-61~ **

I have been unable to find this on-line - you’ll have to buy it to see for yourself! It was affirmed in 1998 by JP II - Apostolos Suos:

Certainly the individual bishops, as teachers of the faith, do not address the universal community of the faithful except through the action of the entire College of Bishops. In fact, only the faithful entrusted to the pastoral care of a particular bishop are required to accept his judgment given in the name of Christ in matters of faith and morals, and to adhere to it with a religious assent of soul. vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_22071998_apostolos-suos_en.html

From Bishop Vasa:

catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re1007.htm

 

[PodunkMommy]

Hi, PodunkMommy.
I don’t quite understand this part. I understand the ID part, but after that I don’t quite understand. You say some of them rape and kill and nothing happens…why? They would not get away with rape or murder just because their were undocumented. Unless you mean they rape and murder other illegal immigrants and the victims and families are too afraid to do anything because they are illegal…that I would understand. I am just trying to clarify.
Are their body parts really harvested to use for organ donation? That is rather bizarre and cruel. Obviously rape and murder are, too, but organ harvesting is a little bit more bizarre.

I just don’t believe illegal immigrants are more dangerous than American citizens.
God bless!

With regards to ID’s, I meant their social security cards and their identities. In the Southwest it is very common for people’s social security cards to be stolen and for illegal immigrants to commit identity theft. Of course there is a middle man providing this service. Our local sherriff busts these operations constantly. I am not blaming the immigrants. I am just saying, it happens. Many business here are raided for hiring illegals. It is said. Some businesses get away with it because they do hire them legally, but immigrants has used someone elses identity!!!

As far as rape and murder, I’m talking about it going all ways. The immigrants who come over with the coyotes are raped on their way over by the very coyotes themselves who provided the transportation and they paid. If someone gets in the way of the rape, like a husband, he will be dealt with swiftly because this is the desert and there is no one to protect you.

Murders to American citizens. I guess you do not see the many cases were illegal immigrants come over and do committ rape and murder and there is evidence but they get extridited back to Mexico because they will not get a fair trial in America!! Goes on all the time. Not just in the Southwest. In New York and all areas of the East as well.

There are also the immigrants brought in for human trafficking who get raped because that is all they are, a piece of meet. The sex trade industry is still on. We, America, don’t just get people from Mexico, we have them brought through Mexico, via the Southwest, from all over.

Organ transplants, well, I guess some don’t realize how hard it is to find an immediate transplant. This is going on ALL over the world.

I didn’t say Americans were better than immigrants at all. I said I had conflicting feelings.

And don’t even let me get started on the drugs and the cartels. If you live in an area that is safe and secure. I am happy for you. Some of us live on the front lines and this is something we have to deal with daily.

Blessings.

 

[PodunkMommy]

A few things here need to be stated:
Generally, it is not the first generation that becomes fluent and American, but their children, and especially their grandchildren.

Secondly, no one DOES get in at the ports of entry without the “proper paperwork” already.

Thirdly, your statements about illegals murdering people is a little disturbing. .

Ok, first, in regards to language, what I am referring to is that in most places in the Southwest, we have everything in two languages, English and Spanish. We provide interpreters for Spanish speaking people because they do not learn the English languages. We have voting in Spanish,bi-lingual signs, etc. There are people who have lived in the Southwest for generations who have not learned English because they did not have to. I’m not saying it is their fault. It isn’t. Spanish and English were always the option.

Second, of course no one gets in at the points of entry without the proper paperwork. We are talking about the hundreds of miles of barren desert where people sneak in illegally.

Third, I never said anything about illegals murdering people. I said they run the risk of being raped and murdered themselves. Do you really think that these coyotes provide access to America for illegal immigrants out of the goodness of their heart??? And it is not just Mexicans they are bringing over. We are not talking about Mexicans vs. Americans. We are talking about illegals vs. Citizens of the United States. Mexico is uesed as the point of entry for ALL countries to bring illegals through. They don’t just bring the Mexican people through who are looking for a better life. They bring people from Guatamla, Hondorus, Venezuala. People are brought over for the sex slave trade. I find that very disturbing. I don’t like the fact that they (the smugglers) use America to promote such an archaic form of entertainment.

So maybe you and I are talking about different things. I am talking about finding a way to tighten up control on these open areas of the border which would be in the billions. And by the way, it is the Catholic Church who will go out to these border stations at times and provide water for these illegal immigrants and take care of them when they are found.

Yes, it would be easier if those looking for a better life would not use the illegal points of entry, that way we possibly could have something set up to “bust the bad guys” so to speak.

I apologize if I sound strong in emotion but this is very close to home.

Blessings

 

[PodunkMommy]

The archetype of the rapist illegal is often used to demonize them. I think it muddies the waters of thought. No one is pro-rape or pro-murder whether the perpetrator is here illegally or the town doctor.

Hmmm. I am not talking about all illegals. I am talking about the situations where an illegal is extridited back to his “home country” because he can’t be tried in America even when there is evidence against him. That is not right. The person should not have been in the country in the first place illegally.

It is not just that. Since the borders are not secure said person will and has gotten in again. There has been cases.

No, I’m not saying every illegal person does this. Many do sneak over for a better life.There are people now that I know that still stay because they don’t want to go back to their homeland because America is providing their children with so much more.

I would long to go back to the days when it was more peaceful, but those days are gone. Actually things were always bad, they are just being detected more and with the moral decay of our society drugs and sex are out in the open so anything goes.

Blessings.

 

[Blacksword]

As far as rape and murder, I’m talking about it going all ways. The immigrants who come over with the coyotes are raped on their way over by the very coyotes themselves who provided the transportation and they paid. If someone gets in the way of the rape, like a husband, he will be dealt with swiftly because this is the desert and there is no one to protect you.

Murders to American citizens. I guess you do not see the many cases were illegal immigrants come over and do committ rape and murder and there is evidence but they get extridited back to Mexico because they will not get a fair trial in America!! Goes on all the time. Not just in the Southwest. In New York and all areas of the East as well.

Blessings.

I’m sorry but this is outlandish! Please cite a source for this claim, as I believe it to be totally false. I am an immigration attorney and thus do not specialize in criminal law, but I remember basic jurisdiction issues and such from my law school days. A person is tried in the jurisdiction where the alleged offense occurred, and nearly without exception. If some completely screw-ball set of circumstances happened in one case where something like this happened, that might have given rise to this kind of story, but I have heard of no such thing. The basics of criminal law and jurisprudence dictate this has to be a myth.

 

[Blacksword]

Ok, first, in regards to language, what I am referring to is that in most places in the Southwest, we have everything in two languages, English and Spanish. We provide interpreters for Spanish speaking people because they do not learn the English languages. We have voting in Spanish,bi-lingual signs, etc. There are people who have lived in the Southwest for generations who have not learned English because they did not have to. I’m not saying it is their fault. It isn’t. Spanish and English were always the option.

Second, of course no one gets in at the points of entry without the proper paperwork. We are talking about the hundreds of miles of barren desert where people sneak in illegally.

Third, I never said anything about illegals murdering people. I said they run the risk of being raped and murdered themselves. Do you really think that these coyotes provide access to America for illegal immigrants out of the goodness of their heart??? And it is not just Mexicans they are bringing over. We are not talking about Mexicans vs. Americans. We are talking about illegals vs. Citizens of the United States. Mexico is uesed as the point of entry for ALL countries to bring illegals through. They don’t just bring the Mexican people through who are looking for a better life. They bring people from Guatamla, Hondorus, Venezuala. People are brought over for the sex slave trade. I find that very disturbing. I don’t like the fact that they (the smugglers) use America to promote such an archaic form of entertainment.

So maybe you and I are talking about different things. I am talking about finding a way to tighten up control on these open areas of the border which would be in the billions. And by the way, it is the Catholic Church who will go out to these border stations at times and provide water for these illegal immigrants and take care of them when they are found.

Yes, it would be easier if those looking for a better life would not use the illegal points of entry, that way we possibly could have something set up to “bust the bad guys” so to speak.

I apologize if I sound strong in emotion but this is very close to home.

Blessings

That’s fine, but please read the links I provided, it’s actually very few who do not learn English according to the research. I’m also well aware of the dangers undocumented migrants face: I’ve had some over the years as clients and consults.

Sealing the border completely with our terribly dysfunctional laws in place currently is not a workable option. It would cost hundreds of billions in federal resources and likely require full militarization of the border. Lastly, just so you know, about half those here without status in the U.S. did NOT enter from Mexico. Around 5-6 million of them entered legally through land, air, or sea ports of entry, and have overstayed. So no, Mexico is not the avenue by which they all come.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PodunkMommy,

For what it is worth, I did not preceive any effort to ‘demonize’ any group - much less stereotype an entire group of people. I think I understood what you initially said. There are real problems associated with crime not being treated in the same manner because of the established illegal status of the accused. T he failure to see at least the appearance of justice through our Criminal - Justice System is more than demoralizing - it encourages others to ‘enforce’ the laws - and this leads to major problems.

I know there is a good reason for this … I just can not think of it! Do you know of any other country that handles their illegal immigrants like the US does? Here we have an illegal being accused of a felony committed in the US who is sent back to their native country - not for trial, but just to get them out of here - because the US justice system would be ‘unfair’ to him? Truly, this places a pretty low value on how justice is administered/dispensed in this country.

God bless

Hmmm. I am not talking about all illegals. I am talking about the situations where an illegal is extridited back to his “home country” because he can’t be tried in America even when there is evidence against him. That is not right. The person should not have been in the country in the first place illegally.

It is not just that. Since the borders are not secure said person will and has gotten in again. There has been cases.

No, I’m not saying every illegal person does this. Many do sneak over for a better life.There are people now that I know that still stay because they don’t want to go back to their homeland because America is providing their children with so much more.

I would long to go back to the days when it was more peaceful, but those days are gone. Actually things were always bad, they are just being detected more and with the moral decay of our society drugs and sex are out in the open so anything goes.

Blessings.

 

[PodunkMommy]

I’m sorry but this is outlandish! Please cite a source for this claim, as I believe it to be totally false. I am an immigration attorney and thus do not specialize in criminal law, but I remember basic jurisdiction issues and such from my law school days. A person is tried in the jurisdiction where the alleged offense occurred, and nearly without exception. If some completely screw-ball set of circumstances happened in one case where something like this happened, that might have given rise to this kind of story, but I have heard of no such thing. The basics of criminal law and jurisprudence dictate this has to be a myth.

It’s taking too much time to go through all my links and I have to head out the door. I’ll look for it when I get back. If I can’t find it I’ll get in touch with my Uncle who works in the frontline on this kind of stuff and try to get info.

Blessings.

 

[tqualey]

Way to go, Blacksword!

The first link provide this unbiased information:

"WASHINGTON - Immigrants, particularly Latinos, are assimilating at a fast pace, with increasing citizenship and homeownership rates, according to a report Wednesday by the Center for American Progress.

The assimilation report was released the same day that the Pew Hispanic Center said illegal immigration has slowed considerably and that the illegal immigrant population in the U.S. has dropped by 8 percent from 2007 to 2009. (See story, Page A1)

The two studies come as the Obama administration is ramping up efforts to curb illegal immigration and, at the same time, pushing for immigration reform legislation to expand legal immigration into the United States.

“The longer that immigrants are in the United States, the more integrated they become,” said Angela Kelley with the center, a liberal organization that supports increasing immigration levels."
The second link provided this unbiased information:

This is just a bit dataed (printed in 2006 quoting data from 2000) and not exactly beyond question when it comes to objectivity…

“Most Latino immigrants want to become U.S. citizens. This process takes years, so recent immigrants are not a good barometer. But according to the 2000 Census, the majority of Latinos who entered the United States before 1980 have become citizens. And second-generation immigrants are more likely to marry natives than immigrants, further assimilating their children. The majority of immigrants also own their own homes, a key part of the American dream.”

I do not how you look at this - but, if current data does not support one’s position - go back to an earlier date that does! Admittedly, this does just a bit of violence to picking up on trends that are establishing themselves… but, what the heck - it needs to be sacrificed to make the story support the agenda. The sentence on home-ownership really deserves some investigation. With truly archiac data and the housing-bubble long since burst - I would have serious doubts if this statement were true today. It may not have ever been true.

I know this sounds cynical, Blacksword - but, it really looks like this search took less than 5 seconds… Anyone claiming to be able to accutrately hit moving targets, identify not only current positions but actual trends and get it published - is truly a gifted researcher who should consider simply pick winning lotto numbers for a week and then retire! From my experience, objective data, like from the US Census bureau best comes from the Department of Labor - not from a local newspaper whose primary objective is selling their newspapers as they pedal an agenda.

Now, heads up - if you are using material such as this to base case-work decisions … there may be a problem if someone looks at more than the headlines.

God bless

On studies, the U.S. Census data, objective reality. Try these links:

azstarnet.com/news/national/article_6303be19-d3a3-5b82-b230-9bff9b41d4c4.html

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/11/AR2006061100922.html

This took a five second Google Search to find. The information is out there, and pretty easily accessible.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Blacksword,

‘Outlandish’ is really an understatement. Personally, I have never heard of such a thing… not even close. The following link may be of interest: fncic-voiacm.org/victims.php?id=994 Now, this is from a similar non-objective source I criticized you for using … … and while it is a different agenda, it is still an agenda. And, this is what makes it questionable.

There was a recent case in Texas where an illegal immigrant (who had been living in the US for many years) raped and murdered a 16 year old (here is a link - but the crime is described in some detail and not for the faint of heart: thelandofthefree.net/conservativeopinion/2011/07/17/texas-treats-illegal-alien-humberto-leal-as-a-genuine-citizen-of-the-united-states-and-executes-him-for-murder/). The take home message is that this man was tried and convicted - and many people came to his aid because of illegal immigrant status and that the Mexican authorities were not notified when he was arrested… and Texas turned them all down and executed him. Maybe the real take home message is don’t do the crime in Texas.

So, like you, having some reference on a crime essentially being swept under the rug while the accused is given a one-way ticket out of the US would be helpful.

God bless

I’m sorry but this is outlandish! Please cite a source for this claim, as I believe it to be totally false. I am an immigration attorney and thus do not specialize in criminal law, but I remember basic jurisdiction issues and such from my law school days. A person is tried in the jurisdiction where the alleged offense occurred, and nearly without exception. If some completely screw-ball set of circumstances happened in one case where something like this happened, that might have given rise to this kind of story, but I have heard of no such thing. The basics of criminal law and jurisprudence dictate this has to be a myth.

 

[Blacksword]

Way to go, Blacksword!

The first link provide this unbiased information:

"WASHINGTON - Immigrants, particularly Latinos, are assimilating at a fast pace, with increasing citizenship and homeownership rates, according to a report Wednesday by the Center for American Progress.

The assimilation report was released the same day that the Pew Hispanic Center said illegal immigration has slowed considerably and that the illegal immigrant population in the U.S. has dropped by 8 percent from 2007 to 2009. (See story, Page A1)

The two studies come as the Obama administration is ramping up efforts to curb illegal immigration and, at the same time, pushing for immigration reform legislation to expand legal immigration into the United States.

“The longer that immigrants are in the United States, the more integrated they become,” said Angela Kelley with the center, a liberal organization that supports increasing immigration levels."
The second link provided this unbiased information:

This is just a bit dataed (printed in 2006 quoting data from 2000) and not exactly beyond question when it comes to objectivity…

“Most Latino immigrants want to become U.S. citizens. This process takes years, so recent immigrants are not a good barometer. But according to the 2000 Census, the majority of Latinos who entered the United States before 1980 have become citizens. And second-generation immigrants are more likely to marry natives than immigrants, further assimilating their children. The majority of immigrants also own their own homes, a key part of the American dream.”

I do not how you look at this - but, if current data does not support one’s position - go back to an earlier date that does! Admittedly, this does just a bit of violence to picking up on trends that are establishing themselves… but, what the heck - it needs to be sacrificed to make the story support the agenda. The sentence on home-ownership really deserves some investigation. With truly archiac data and the housing-bubble long since burst - I would have serious doubts if this statement were true today. It may not have ever been true.

I know this sounds cynical, Blacksword - but, it really looks like this search took less than 5 seconds… Anyone claiming to be able to accutrately hit moving targets, identify not only current positions but actual trends and get it published - is truly a gifted researcher who should consider simply pick winning lotto numbers for a week and then retire! From my experience, objective data, like from the US Census bureau best comes from the Department of Labor - not from a local newspaper whose primary objective is selling their newspapers as they pedal an agenda.

Now, heads up - if you are using material such as this to base case-work decisions … there may be a problem if someone looks at more than the headlines.

God bless

Um, what? I’m confused by your apparent tone, and as to what your point is, but you seem to not understand a few things…the data is from a few years back because it takes a few years to get such data on the population and demographic trends of millions of people in a nation of 300 million people! It’s the most recent information there is, and unless you meant “biased” instead of “unbiased” and are insinuating that the U.S. Census is a biased information source, I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at. It’s reality, as objectively as such data compilations can assess it anyway. The fact of the matter is they are assimilating about at the same rate of previous immigrant groups. The stories don’t conflict with one another at all, if that’s what you are implying…but please, don’t insinuate, if you doubt the actual evidence, support your position. I’m sure you can locate some scholarly work or study showing they are NOT assimilating at all, or can’t you?

And, for the record, I base legal work decisions on the LAW, that is, the INA, the regulations published by the Dept. Of Homeland Security, Department of State, Department of Labor, and the other various federal agencies involved in immigration law and policy, and their various cables, guidance, and memoranda, not on news stories, headline material or bodies of the stories notwithstanding.

 

[PodunkMommy]

Hi, PodunkMommy,

For what it is worth, I did not preceive any effort to ‘demonize’ any group - much less stereotype an entire group of people. I think I understood what you initially said. There are real problems associated with crime not being treated in the same manner because of the established illegal status of the accused. T he failure to see at least the appearance of justice through our Criminal - Justice System is more than demoralizing - it encourages others to ‘enforce’ the laws - and this leads to major problems.

I know there is a good reason for this … I just can not think of it! Do you know of any other country that handles their illegal immigrants like the US does? Here we have an illegal being accused of a felony committed in the US who is sent back to their native country - not for trial, but just to get them out of here - because the US justice system would be ‘unfair’ to him? Truly, this places a pretty low value on how justice is administered/dispensed in this country.

God bless/QUOTE

The crazy thing is with identity theft. If an American citizen steals someone’s identity; they are charged with identity theft, fraud, and whatever other crime they’ve committed while using this person’s identity.

When an illegal immigrant uses someones identity; they get deported. That is not justice. I don’t understand that.

Blessings.

 

[Blacksword]

Hi, Blacksword,

‘Outlandish’ is really an understatement. Personally, I have never heard of such a thing… not even close. The following link may be of interest: fncic-voiacm.org/victims.php?id=994 Now, this is from a similar non-objective source I criticized you for using … … and while it is a different agenda, it is still an agenda. And, this is what makes it questionable.

There was a recent case in Texas where an illegal immigrant (who had been living in the US for many years) raped and murdered a 16 year old (here is a link - but the crime is described in some detail and not for the faint of heart: thelandofthefree.net/conservativeopinion/2011/07/17/texas-treats-illegal-alien-humberto-leal-as-a-genuine-citizen-of-the-united-states-and-executes-him-for-murder/). The take home message is that this man was tried and convicted - and many people came to his aid because of illegal immigrant status and that the Mexican authorities were not notified when he was arrested… and Texas turned them all down and executed him. Maybe the real take home message is don’t do the crime in Texas.

So, like you, having some reference on a crime essentially being swept under the rug while the accused is given a one-way ticket out of the US would be helpful.

God bless

What is your point? Do you even know what your point is? Because I can’t figure it out from this post at all. I DO see now that you are indicating that the Washington Post
and the U.S. census are unreliable information sources, okay, whatever you say

Anyway…the “take home” from these two stories appears to be that two unlawfully present guys did something terrible, one a murder-rape, the other a vehicular homicide while driving drunk. Both are being subjected to the American justice system, the murderer has been executed…And this has bearing on the topic how? I don’t think anyone’s ever said undocumenteds never commit crimes. They do, but at a FAR FAR lower rate than native citizens. In any event, justice, such as can be found in America today, appears to have been duly meted out, what’s the problem? You can find similar isolated incidents of am undocumented preventing a crime against a citizen, or helping old ladies across the street, singular anecdotes don’t make for good law and policy though!

 

[PodunkMommy]

Hi, PodunkMommy,

For what it is worth, I did not preceive any effort to ‘demonize’ any group - much less stereotype an entire group of people. I think I understood what you initially said. There are real problems associated with crime not being treated in the same manner because of the established illegal status of the accused. T he failure to see at least the appearance of justice through our Criminal - Justice System is more than demoralizing - it encourages others to ‘enforce’ the laws - and this leads to major problems.

I know there is a good reason for this … I just can not think of it! Do you know of any other country that handles their illegal immigrants like the US does? Here we have an illegal being accused of a felony committed in the US who is sent back to their native country - not for trial, but just to get them out of here - because the US justice system would be ‘unfair’ to him? Truly, this places a pretty low value on how justice is administered/dispensed in this country.

God bless

Hi There:

I feel for ALL people on this matter. But there is something wrong with the justice system here. If an American citizen steals someone’s identity, they will be charged with identity theft, fraud, and a whole host of other charges that go along with that crime. If an illegal immigrant committs identity theft, they get deported. That is not justice.

I am not demonizing any group. When praying the Seven Sorrows of Mary with our priest a few weeks back, he said he would add the sorrow of ethnicity to these. It is so true. Many have made this illegal immigration an ethnic thing. It is sad because it is so far from that. But this is exactly what the Evil One wants. He wants to split us apart. The easiest way to conquer something is to split it and then destory it from within.

You are from Texas, right? You know your history of Mexican Tejanos fighting bravely alongside frontiersmen for the freedom of the Texas Republic long before it was even part of America?

Someone said somewhere about America really being mostly English and British. It is true. Even during the great immigration waves of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s people would move to areas that were predominatly filled with people from their Country and village that they came from. But they did try to assimilate. Now we have tensions running high about who America even really belongs to.

We all belong to God. This land, our children, everything, is on loan to us.

I miss the days when the Southwest and Mexico got along. When we could walk right over the border, with our dogs, hang out, spend the day, and come home. I miss the time when I thought I’d live part of the year in Mexico and part in the United States. I loved the slower pace of life. I was young and naive.

As you can tell, I have much emotion regarding this. I should probably have not even looked at this thread. The temptation was so strong.

Having personal family and friends involved in the issues on both sides really affects my feelings. I am also very angry at the cartels, sex traffickers, etc., for what they are doing to all these poor souls.

I may need to stay off for a bit. I apologize if I offended anyone. It was not my intention.

Blessings.

 

[Blacksword]

Hi There:

I feel for ALL people on this matter. But there is something wrong with the justice system here. If an American citizen steals someone’s identity, they will be charged with identity theft, fraud, and a whole host of other charges that go along with that crime. If an illegal immigrant committs identity theft, they get deported. That is not justice.

I am not demonizing any group. When praying the Seven Sorrows of Mary with our priest a few weeks back, he said he would add the sorrow of ethnicity to these. It is so true. Many have made this illegal immigration an ethnic thing. It is sad because it is so far from that. But this is exactly what the Evil One wants. He wants to split us apart. The easiest way to conquer something is to split it and then destory it from within.

You are from Texas, right? You know your history of Mexican Tejanos fighting bravely alongside frontiersmen for the freedom of the Texas Republic long before it was even part of America?

Someone said somewhere about America really being mostly English and British. It is true. Even during the great immigration waves of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s people would move to areas that were predominatly filled with people from their Country and village that they came from. But they did try to assimilate. Now we have tensions running high about who America even really belongs to.

We all belong to God. This land, our children, everything, is on loan to us.

I miss the days when the Southwest and Mexico got along. When we could walk right over the border, with our dogs, hang out, spend the day, and come home. I miss the time when I thought I’d live part of the year in Mexico and part in the United States. I loved the slower pace of life. I was young and naive.

As you can tell, I have much emotion regarding this. I should probably have not even looked at this thread. The temptation was so strong.

Having personal family and friends involved in the issues on both sides really affects my feelings. I am also very angry at the cartels, sex traffickers, etc., for what they are doing to all these poor souls.

I may need to stay off for a bit. I apologize if I offended anyone. It was not my intention.

Blessings.

Illegals can be and have been charged with and convicted of those same identity theft related crimes. THEN, after prison time, they are deported.