Catholics And Lutherans Release ‘Declaration On The Way’ To Full Unity

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Who thinks this can honestly happen when there are issues such as sexuality and womens ordinations that are serious wedge issues. IF this happens, the the gates of hell will have provailed. I left the ELCA lutheran church because of lesbian/feminist ‘ministers’, abortion and gay marriage.

the picture of the bishop and the ‘women minister’ is disturbing.
The ELCA lutheran church is extremely heretical.

usccb.org/news/2015/15-147.cfm
 
Eric_Olsen said:
Who thinks this can honestly happen when there are issues such as sexuality and womens ordinations that are serious wedge issues. IF this happens, the the gates of hell will have provailed. I left the ELCA lutheran church because of lesbian/feminist ‘ministers’, abortion and gay marriage.

the picture of the bishop and the ‘women minister’ is disturbing.
The ELCA lutheran church is extremely heretical.

usccb.org/news/2015/15-147.cfm
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The Confessional Lutherans need to come on board. The ELCA to me is not representative of the beliefs of the Lutheran faith. This is kind of like signing an agreement with Nancy Pelosi and telling everyone you’ve got the Catholic Church with you…it is a start though - that can’t be denied. I am proud of the USCCB for their work here.
 
Well my problem is they are signing a pact with the devil. It involves the ELCA only.
And I have a feeling the ELCA is going to expect the Catholic Church to change their positions on doctrine to accommodate the ELCA on abortion, gay marriage and women priests.

I have no doubt that many of the Bishops and priests in this country want that to happen. If it does, expect another schism. I for one, will not stay and will go the Orthodox church or a conservative church. And I wont be alone. Then you can expect the rapid decline on the Catholic Church like the Episcopalians.
FollowChrist34 said:
The Confessional Lutherans need to come on board. The ELCA to me is not representative of the beliefs of the Lutheran faith. This is kind of like signing an agreement with Nancy Pelosi and telling everyone you’ve got the Catholic Church with you…it is a start though - that can’t be denied. I am proud of the USCCB for their work here.
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There is no need to worry. The Catholic Church is not like your former congregation, She can not change those doctrines. The Church is infallible in her objective definitive teaching regarding faith and morals. That does not mean that individual Bishops can not teach error.

More on the subject…
newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
 
Eric_Olsen said:
Who thinks this can honestly happen when there are issues such as sexuality and womens ordinations that are serious wedge issues. IF this happens, the the gates of hell will have provailed. I left the ELCA lutheran church because of lesbian/feminist ‘ministers’, abortion and gay marriage.

the picture of the bishop and the ‘women minister’ is disturbing.
The ELCA lutheran church is extremely heretical.

usccb.org/news/2015/15-147.cfm
Click to expand...
Yeah. Well there’s a bit of distance between wanting to feel good. And actually being good. It’s easy to want to stand in that picture and feel good about something. But actually being good is a lot harder than just doing something like that. Being good takes courage. And a willingness to be uncomfortable. Feeling good just takes a few minutes and a smile.

Peace Eric.

-Trident
 
The USCCB is not The American Catholic Church. It does not have the ecclesiastic authority of even a diocese. It does not represent the Pope for the USA.

We have seen this kind of ecumenism for decades with the C of E, or Episcopal Church. People who are full time, permanent ecumenists get together, draw up papers based only on the experience of other ecumenists, not really on the experiences of 99% of the people in their own Church. The Anglican and Catholic ecumenists seem almost oblivious to what’s gone on in Prolife, Religious Liberty, the government and media assault on religious institutions, apostasy in many areas, the battle for the sanctity of marriage.

It’s like they are living in a bubble, from around 1970. They keep issuing papers and statements, that don’t show they are listening to the world of 2015, nor is the world of 2015 listening to them. A few bishops and religious do get interested, but most, both Catholic and Anglican, are busy dealing with the world of 2015.

Same with the dialogue with ELCA. The RCC, and ELCA are steadily moving farther apart, just as with RCC and Anglicanism establishment.
 
"greater visible unity between Catholics and Lutherans. "

It is essential in these times.

Peace
 
I don’t think full unity is possible, in the sense that unity with the Orthodox is possible. Catholics and Protestants have too different view on what the Church is. We can be nice to each other, and should be, but Catholics can never claim that Catholicism is one denomination, one interpretation, among others, and Protestants will never claim that Catholicism is the visible Church (Protestantism is defined as a reject of Catholicism).

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
Lucretius said:
I don’t think full unity is possible, in the sense that unity with the Orthodox is possible. Catholics and Protestants have too different view on what the Church is. We can be nice to each other, and should be, but Catholics can never claim that Catholicism is one denomination, one interpretation, among others, and Protestants will never claim that Catholicism is the visible Church (Protestantism is defined as a reject of Catholicism).

Christi pax,

Lucretius
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To an extent I think you’re right, but there is also a big difference between say Evangelicals / Pentecostals on the one hand or traditional Lutherans / Anglicans on the other. Think of the Anglican Ordinariates. Essentially “Protestants” (of a very high church variety) who were received into full communion with the Catholic Church while retaining much of their own patrimony.
 
twf said:
To an extent I think you’re right, but there is also a big difference between say Evangelicals / Pentecostals on the one hand or traditional Lutherans / Anglicans on the other. Think of the Anglican Ordinariates. Essentially “Protestants” (of a very high church variety) who were received into full communion with the Catholic Church while retaining much of their own patrimony.
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Worship style is only one aspect of religion. It is also important how denominations retain the common Christian foundation, which formerly all churches held to, but many have now moved away from. This would include understanding of God the Father; prolife; sanctity of marriage; the Natural Law; and other things.

Some, not all, evangelical and pentacostal groups have held onto most, if not all, the common foundation. Many mainline Protestant groups have moved steadily away from it over the past 50 years. The Anglican Ordinariates not only include people with their “patrimony” but also those who hold the common foundation, while other Anglican groups have not. The Ordinariates would not have become part of the Catholic Church, without holding to that foundation, no matter how “high church” they are.

Many other Anglican groups, in the Continuum, and the LCMS Lutherans, also hold to the common foundation. That is where the real future of ecumenism is for Catholics.

The problem with the ELCA and ARCIC Anglican dialogues is that they don’t seem to take into account denominational developments of the past 50 years, which both liberals and conservatives (outside the ecumenical staffs) as well as non-Christians and Catholics identify as very significant.
 
twf said:
To an extent I think you’re right, but there is also a big difference between say Evangelicals / Pentecostals on the one hand or traditional Lutherans / Anglicans on the other. Think of the Anglican Ordinariates. Essentially “Protestants” (of a very high church variety) who were received into full communion with the Catholic Church while retaining much of their own patrimony.
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Yes, Evangelicalism is not traditional Protestantism. Central doctrines of traditional Protestant and even Christian thought can be rejected with little problem. It’s sort of relativist, even more so than traditional Protestantism (I would say this might be the logical result of the earlier Protestant framework).

And Anglicans are a whole new can a worms :bigyikes:

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
Eric_Olsen said:
Who thinks this can honestly happen when there are issues such as sexuality and womens ordinations that are serious wedge issues. IF this happens, the the gates of hell will have provailed. I left the ELCA lutheran church because of lesbian/feminist ‘ministers’, abortion and gay marriage.

the picture of the bishop and the ‘women minister’ is disturbing.
The ELCA lutheran church is extremely heretical.

usccb.org/news/2015/15-147.cfm
Click to expand...
Do you think this unity of the Catholic Church and Lutheranism is still relevant facing the world today? Left and right there are revolutions coming in the different churches because of women ordinations, homosexual marriages and divorce. It is a war zone out there. If these evil ideas infected Lutheranism already, then it would just self-destruct on its own. No need for the RCC to compromise with Lutheranism then.
 
ComplineSanFran said:
It is my understanding that we are not to refer to any one or any religious community as ‘heretical.’
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I agree that the term “heretical” could be perceived as insulting by a sincere Lutheran. It would be more sensitive to merely observe that this ecclesial community adheres to opinions at odds with what is generally accepted by the Church.

The document affirms that these commonalities are ‘significant’ but they really appear to be quite superficial to this reader. What is significant are the serious differences which the document attempts to minimize or redefine. For example, on page 89 of the text:

**According to Catholic teaching, in Lutheran churches the sacramental sign of ordination is not fully present because those who ordain are not themselves in recognized apostolic succession.

“Therefore the Second Vatican Council speaks of a defectus sacramenti ordinis (UR 22) in these churches” (Apostolicity, § 283). This perception of a defectus, when understood as “lack” or “absence,” clearly stands in the way of recognition of Lutheran ordained ministry.82**

From the perspective of this Catholic layman, this is the very heart of the matter. I never doubted that Lutherans retained a hierarchical organizational structure, liturgical worship or believed that they possess valid sacraments. Lutherans make nice neighbors, pay their taxes and created the wonderful children’s show “Davey and Goliath”. However, the simple fact remains that they need to return to the Ark before the storm breaks. If this Declaration is helpful in guiding them home, than it was worth every effort to produce it.
 
I was with a bunch of Catholics once who were invited to a Lutheran service. This was after a bunch of Lutherans were invited to our Catholic Church for an ecumenical open-house with 5 different denominations.

So while I was there. After the service. One of the Lutherans guided our group into their library. And slyly pulled a book off the shelf. Now I wish I knew which book it was because I’d love to be able to read it again. I mean it was some sort of official book detailing the faith and its tenets. Maybe like the big book that spells out all the rules in the Catholic faith. I forget the name of that book too. Sorry. I’m not good with things like that. (Maybe the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Yeah the CCC.)

Well anyway this fellow opened it to a page and pointed out a passage. He didn’t say anything. But the passage said. To the best of my memory:

“Though the Lutheran Faith Community holds that the Catholic Church is the one true Church, there are certain key positions that we feel have forced us to set ourselves apart. We look forward to the day when these [things] might be rectified so that we might join again as one. So that we might again be one community under God.”

Once he was sure we’d all read it. And understood. He put the book back up on the shelf and we all shook hands.

I’ve always respected Lutherans ever since. I think they’re pretty principled. To have a book like that on their shelf. And to know where to find that paragraph when they need to. To make a group feel welcome.

Peace guys.

-Trident
 
twf said:
To an extent I think you’re right, but there is also a big difference between say Evangelicals / Pentecostals on the one hand or traditional Lutherans / Anglicans on the other. Think of the Anglican Ordinariates. Essentially “Protestants” (of a very high church variety) who were received into full communion with the Catholic Church while retaining much of their own patrimony.
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Yes, this is exactly my view. The irony is that 16th High Protestantism is so much closer to Catholicism than much of what is happening today, even in the Catholic Church, such as you see with the activities of the German Bishops or various Jesuit groups - those trying to shut down the published observations of Douthat in that recent incident. Secularism and Western cultural influences abound in both Protestantism and Catholicism - just look at any poll of the Catholic laity and adherence to Catholic beliefs. I have more in common with a devout LCMS member than Cardinal Marx.

The good old days are gone when it was just Catholic :banghead: vs. Protestant :banghead:. Bummer.
 
and thats great but there are Lutheran sects out there, ELCA, that I feel cannot achieve full unity unless they see the errors they have created in the last 40+ years. Confessional lutherans sure why not.

I just don’t want to see the Catholic Church water down theology just to accommodate a group that embraces certain things in our culture and act like God is ok with it.
Trident_H said:
I was with a bunch of Catholics once who were invited to a Lutheran service. This was after a bunch of Lutherans were invited to our Catholic Church for an ecumenical open-house with 5 different denominations.

So while I was there. After the service. One of the Lutherans guided our group into their library. And slyly pulled a book off the shelf. Now I wish I knew which book it was because I’d love to be able to read it again. I mean it was some sort of official book detailing the faith and its tenets. Maybe like the big book that spells out all the rules in the Catholic faith. I forget the name of that book too. Sorry. I’m not good with things like that. (Maybe the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Yeah the CCC.)

Well anyway this fellow opened it to a page and pointed out a passage. He didn’t say anything. But the passage said. To the best of my memory:

"Though the Lutheran Faith Community holds that the Catholic Church is the one true Church, there are certain key positions that we feel have forced us to set ourselves apart. We look forward to the day when these [things] might be rectified so that we might join again as one. So that we might again be one community under God."

Once he was sure we’d all read it. And understood. He put the book back up on the shelf and we all shook hands.

I’ve always respected Lutherans ever since. I think they’re pretty principled. To have a book like that on their shelf. And to know where to find that paragraph when they need to. To make a group feel welcome.

Peace guys.

-Trident
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From page 97 of the document:
The Catholic Church does not consider itself as authorized to
ordain women.88 Nevertheless, in The Ministry in the Church the
international dialogue commission affirmed that the Catholic
Church “is able to strive for a consensus on the nature and
significance of the ministry without the different conceptions of
the persons to be ordained fundamentally endangering such a
consensus and its practical consequences for the growing unity of
the church” (§ 25).
Click to expand...
Much ecumenical work is needed to resolve how a mutual
recognition of ministry can advance given this asymmetry
between Lutheran and Catholic views on who can be
ordained. A number of ecumenical dialogues have found
it possible to make many common affirmations regarding
ministry without resolving this issue. Nevertheless, at this
moment these issues constitute a significant difference in
theology and practice between the two traditions, and it has
not been determined how church-dividing these differences
might be or how the questions for further discussion might
best be articulated.
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I’m sorry, but this statement seems to be tortuous mental gymnastics. Let your yes be yes, and your no be no. When did the Church cease speaking with clarity?
There should be some simple questions posed to Lutherans and other Protestant Churches. Do you intend to end the practice of ordaining female clergy? Forget all of the other doctrines for a moment. If the response to that question is negative, then these foolhardy, aimless proceedings for mythical unity (without sacrificing doctrine) must come to an end.
 
outremer said:
From page 97 of the document:

I’m sorry, but this statement seems to be tortuous mental gymnastics. Let your yes be yes, and your no be no. When did the Church cease speaking with clarity?
There should be some simple questions posed to Lutherans and other Protestant Churches. Do you intend to end the practice of ordaining female clergy? Forget all of the other doctrines for a moment. If the response to that question is negative, then these foolhardy, aimless proceedings for mythical unity (without sacrificing doctrine) must come to an end.
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It is ironic that a confessional Lutheran would not touch this joint ELCA-Catholic Declaration with a barge pole - probably due to just as much if not more horror toward the ELCA than toward the Catholics.
 
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