Catholics and Lutherans to worship together at Reformation anniversary

  • Thread starter Thread starter CopyBoy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I have been following some threads recently in which LordHaveMercy and a number of other users have participated, and often they have been attacked and ridiculed for pointing out the obvious: that many leaders in the Church today seem to find it necessary and good to celebrate error in the name of unity and peace. To celebrate heresy with heretics and paganism with pagans as an act of goodwill. There seems to be a general idea that anything that Church leaders do must be right. I imagine that such Catholics as these, if they had lived in the right century, would have applauded the sale of indulgences or the promotion of crusade aggression.

There has to be some line that we won’t cross. If the Catholic Church claims to be the one true Church, claims to carry on the apostolic ministry, then it must boldly proclaim this (albeit with charity) and not be apologetic about it. The Church must be oriented so as to draw people to herself. Celebrating one of the most tragic schisms in Church history is not conducive to unity at all. It is promoting error. It is tantamount to telling Protestants that the reformation was a good thing and that Luther was right to break away from the Church. This will not encourage conversion…
 
CompSciGuy said:
I have been following some threads recently in which LordHaveMercy and a number of other users have participated, and often they have been attacked and ridiculed for pointing out the obvious: that many leaders in the Church today seem to find it necessary and good to celebrate error in the name of unity and peace. To celebrate heresy with heretics and paganism with pagans as an act of goodwill. There seems to be a general idea that anything that Church leaders do must be right. I imagine that such Catholics as these, if they had lived in the right century, would have applauded the sale of indulgences or the promotion of crusade aggression.

There has to be some line that we won’t cross. If the Catholic Church claims to be the one true Church, claims to carry on the apostolic ministry, then it must boldly proclaim this (albeit with charity) and not be apologetic about it. The Church must be oriented so as to draw people to herself. Celebrating one of the most tragic schisms in Church history is not conducive to unity at all. It is promoting error. It is tantamount to telling Protestants that the reformation was a good thing and that Luther was right to break away from the Church. This will not encourage conversion…
Click to expand...
Amen and amen!
 
LordHaveMercy said:
Yes I had seen that, disheartening to say the least, but what people like you and I can do is can pray that they will reconsider their participation, and we can pray for those who may be spiritually harmed by the confusion that such an event causes.
Click to expand...
Disheartened? Do not dare to attribute that sentiment to me, if you please. That would be insulting to me.

“Pray that they will reconsider?” Quite the opposite. “Ut unum sint” has been my life’s prayer as well as the foundation of my life’s work and ministry.

I have worked the whole length of my priesthood for Christian unity and on inter-religious dialogue, beginning with the implementation of Nostra aetate. I rejoice to see this joint commemoration, so long and so hard prepared for, as I have rejoiced to see few other events in my decades of service as a priest and as a theologian. I look forward to taking part in it.

I thank the Lord that decades of hard work by so many is blossoming and that He has graciously allowed me to live long enough to see these events.
 
Peter_J said:
Admittedly I haven’t read that article yet, but I think I would be a bit more comfortable if it said the Pope is commemorating the 95 theses rather than the Reformation. (Not that Popes always go by what makes me most comfortable – they seem to think they know better than me, or something. 🤷 :o)
Click to expand...
I just scanned it. See quote below. I have always thought if I had lived in that era I likely would have become a Protestant, gone with the Reformation. Would I have gone back later to Catholicism? Maybe, especially if I saw that the Reformation was not living up to its intentions. The Godless are everywhere.

The Reformation set the ball rolling for the Counter Reformation - a very good thing. God works in mysterious ways. I personally do not have a problem with this, try as I might to get offended.
Asked about the divisions and conflict provoked by the Reformation, Rev Junge says Catholics and Lutherans can now celebrate the Gospel together and also affirm the “positive contributions and insights that the Lutheran Reformation brought to the surface in the body of Christ”. However he says we cannot be blind to the divisions and the way in which those conflicts became aligned with the political struggles in Europe of that time, causing a lot of suffering to families and communities.
Click to expand...
 
CompSciGuy said:
I have been following some threads recently in which LordHaveMercy and a number of other users have participated, and often they have been attacked and ridiculed for pointing out the obvious: that many leaders in the Church today seem to find it necessary and good to celebrate error in the name of unity and peace. To celebrate heresy with heretics and paganism with pagans as an act of goodwill. There seems to be a general idea that anything that Church leaders do must be right. I imagine that such Catholics as these, if they had lived in the right century, would have applauded the sale of indulgences or the promotion of crusade aggression.

There has to be some line that we won’t cross. If the Catholic Church claims to be the one true Church, claims to carry on the apostolic ministry, then it must boldly proclaim this (albeit with charity) and not be apologetic about it. The Church must be oriented so as to draw people to herself. Celebrating one of the most tragic schisms in Church history is not conducive to unity at all. It is promoting error. It is tantamount to telling Protestants that the reformation was a good thing and that Luther was right to break away from the Church. This will not encourage conversion…
Click to expand...
A telling post, which in principle every Catholic would agree to.

As far as this thread is concerned, I can only notice indignant among Catholic posters expressed in various forms. Generally they do not agree to celebrate this anniversary.

The wording of the report is like this, ***“Catholics and Lutherans have made another step toward joint commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation …”. ***

The question would be what is there for Catholics to commemorate? Why commemorate a dark history of the Church? The only way I can think of is to remember it so that it will not happen again. But isn’t that would be in contrast to what Lutherans think? They justify that event.

Perhaps we need to go into the detail of this event. Interestingly the report comes from a non-Catholic website. What does the Vatican says about this? Until we know the full picture, probably it is prudent to reserve any candid comment to avoid flogging something which may not be there.
 
Peter_J said:
Admittedly I haven’t read that article yet, but I think I would be a bit more comfortable if it said the Pope is commemorating the 95 theses rather than the Reformation. (Not that Popes always go by what makes me most comfortable – they seem to think they know better than me, or something.
Click to expand...
The document From Conflict to Communion explains it very well.

The beginning of the document, which you may find at the Holy See here (vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html):🙂

Introduction
  1. In 2017, Lutheran and Catholic Christians will commemorate together the 500th anniversary of the beginning of the Reformation. Lutherans and Catholics today enjoy a growth in mutual understanding, cooperation, and respect. They have come to acknowledge that more unites than divides them: above all, common faith in the Triune God and the revelation in Jesus Christ, as well as recognition of the basic truths of the doctrine of justification.
  2. Already the 450th anniversary of the Augsburg Confession in 1980 offered both Lutherans and Catholics the opportunity to develop a common understanding of the foundational truths of the faith by pointing to Jesus Christ as the living center of our Christian faith. On the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther’s birth in 1983, the international dialogue between Roman Catholics and Lutherans jointly affirmed a number of Luther’s essential concerns. The commission’s report designated him “Witness to Jesus Christ” and declared, “Christians, whether Protestant or Catholic, cannot disregard the person and the message of this man.”
  3. The upcoming year of 2017 challenges Catholics and Lutherans to discuss in dialogue the issues and consequences of the Wittenberg Reformation, which centered on the person and thought of Martin Luther, and to develop perspectives for the remembrance and appropriation of the Reformation today. Luther’s reforming agenda poses a spiritual and theological challenge for both contemporary Catholics and Lutherans.
  4. Every commemoration has its own context. Today, the context includes three main challenges, which present both opportunities and obligations: (1) It is the first commemoration to take place during the ecumenical age. Therefore, the common commemoration is an occasion to deepen communion between Catholics and Lutherans. (2) It is the first commemoration in the age of globalization. Therefore, the common commemoration must incorporate the experiences and perspectives of Christians from South and North, East and West. (3) It is the first commemoration that must deal with the necessity of a new evangelization in a time marked by both the proliferation of new religious movements and, at the same time, the growth of secularization in many places. Therefore, the common commemoration has the opportunity and obligation to be a common witness of faith.
  5. Relatively early, 31 October 1517 became a symbol of the sixteenth-century Protestant Reformation. Still today, many Lutheran churches remember each year on 31 October the event known as “the Reformation.” The centennial celebrations of the Reformation have been lavish and festive. The opposing viewpoints of the different confessional groups have been especially visible at these events. For Lutherans, these commemorative days and centennials were occasions for telling once again the story of the beginning of the characteristic— “evangelical”—form of their church in order to justify their distinctive existence. This was naturally tied to a critique of the Roman Catholic Church. On the other side, Catholics took such commemorative events as opportunities to accuse Lutherans of an unjustifiable division from the true church and a rejection of the gospel of Christ.
/…/
  1. The year 2017 will see the first centennial commemoration of the Reformation to take place during the ecumenical age. It will also mark fifty years of Lutheran–Roman Catholic dialogue. As part of the ecumenical movement, praying together, worshipping together, and serving their communities together have enriched Catholics and Lutherans. They also face political, social, and economic challenges together. The spirituality evident in interconfessional marriages has brought forth new insights and questions. Lutherans and Catholics have been able to reinterpret their theological traditions and practices, recognizing the influences they have had on each other. Therefore, they long to commemorate 2017 together.
  2. These changes demand a new approach. It is no longer adequate simply to repeat earlier accounts of the Reformation period, which presented Lutheran and Catholic perspectives separately and often in opposition to one another. Historical remembrance always selects from among a great abundance of historical moments and assimilates the selected elements into a meaningful whole. Because these accounts of the past were mostly oppositional, they not infrequently intensified the conflict between the confessions and sometimes led to open hostility.
  3. The historical remembrance has had material consequences for the relationship of the confessions to each other. For this reason, a common ecumenical remembrance of the Lutheran Reformation is both so important and at the same time so difficult. Even today, many Catholics associate the word “Reformation” first of all with the division of the church, while many Lutheran Christians associate the word “Reformation” chiefly with the rediscovery of the gospel, certainty of faith and freedom. It will be necessary to take both points of departure seriously in order to relate the two perspectives to each other and bring them into dialogue.
 
Reuben_J said:
A telling post, which in principle every Catholic would agree to.

As far as this thread is concerned, I can only notice indignant among Catholic posters expressed in various forms. Generally they do not agree to celebrate this anniversary.

The wording of the report is like this, ***“Catholics and Lutherans have made another step toward joint commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation …”. ***

The question would be what is there for Catholics to commemorate? Why commemorate a dark history of the Church? The only way I can think of is to remember it so that it will not happen again. But isn’t that would be in contrast to what Lutherans think? They justify that event.

Perhaps we need to go into the detail of this event. Interestingly the report comes from a non-Catholic website. What does the Vatican says about this? Until we know the full picture, probably it is prudent to reserve any candid comment to avoid flogging something which may not be there.
Click to expand...
If you wish to know the mind of the Holy See, you need only go to their website. The document is not hidden…it is there for all to see and to read.

The ceremonial of common prayer, on the other hand, that is the object of the story this thread concerns was just jointly presented by His Eminence, Kurt Cardinal Koch, the president of the dicastery of the Holy See which has oversight over Catholic Lutheran relations. He was himself a member of the Joint Theological Commission when Pope Benedict XVI elevated him, bringing him to the Vatican to make him both a Cardinal and the head of the dicastery. His work has proceeded under Pope Francis and His Eminence has provided splendid leadership on the Catholic side of the theological dialogue.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
Disheartened? Do not dare to attribute that sentiment to me, if you please. That would be insulting to me.

“Pray that they will reconsider?” Quite the opposite. “Ut unum sint” has been my life’s prayer as well as the foundation of my life’s work and ministry.

I have worked the whole length of my priesthood for Christian unity and on inter-religious dialogue, beginning with the implementation of Nostra aetate. I rejoice to see this joint commemoration, so long and so hard prepared for, as I have rejoiced to see few other events in my decades of service as a priest and as a theologian. I look forward to taking part in it.

I thank the Lord that decades of hard work by so many is blossoming and that He has graciously allowed me to live long enough to see these events.
Click to expand...
Oh, my apologies, Father, for misreading your sentiments. I see now that you posted that with a totally different tone that my response indicates.

Father, I know that priests pray the divine office every day, would you please keep in your intentions those of us who save a seat at Mass every Sunday for our family members, and offer our communions, rosaries and holy hours for their conversions, but our families are still caught up in the mess created by men like Fr. Martin Luther? I haven’t given up on my family members eventually receiving Our Lord’s body, blood, soul and divinity in the Holy Eucharist, and I will be praying for it with my last breathe if they have still not entered the Church when that day comes. Will you please pray for them to come into the Church?
 
LordHaveMercy said:
Oh, my apologies, Father, for misreading your sentiments. I see now that you posted that with a totally different tone that my response indicates.

Father, I know that priests pray the divine office every day, would you please keep in your intentions those of us who save a seat at Mass every Sunday for our family members, and offer our communions, rosaries and holy hours for their conversions, but our families are still caught up in the mess created by men like Fr. Martin Luther? I haven’t given up on my family members eventually receiving Our Lord’s body, blood, soul and divinity in the Holy Eucharist, and I will be praying for it with my last breathe if they have still not entered the Church when that day comes. Will you please pray for them to come into the Church?
Click to expand...
I thank you for your apology, sincerely and graciously offered.

Much of the work of Christian unity happens with theologians actually working in the public square but ignored by most people. Rather than being continually informed by what emanates from the Holy See, Catholics sadly are often surprised and even dismayed when there is a development like this…in spite of the fact it has taken years to conclude and is a work resulting from the divine imperative (the words now of five popes) of seeking to overcome division within the Mystical Body of Christ through the ecumenical movement.

Yes…I promise to pray for you and your family, especially those you are so evidently filled with solicitude for. I cannot promise I can always remember them individually, as I am always adding to those I need to pray for, as I am sure you can imagine, but I offer you what, in theology, we call a habitual intention. They will henceforth be included as part of my general intentions at prayer and Mass, when I cannot pray for each intention and each person individually. I will pray for them along with the members of my family who have chosen not to walk with the Church or her Lord. How wonderful that you have the consolation of family members actually devoted to Christ…even if they are in other ecclesial communities.

I hope, therefore, you take great comfort in the words of Pope St. John Paul II in Ut Unum Sint, a document which altered the course of my priestly life and work.
42. It happens for example that, in the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount, Christians of one confession no longer consider other Christians as enemies or strangers but see them as brothers and sisters. Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”. This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ. I have personally been able many times to observe this during the ecumenical celebrations which are an important part of my Apostolic Visits to various parts of the world, and also in the meetings and ecumenical celebrations which have taken place in Rome. The “universal brotherhood” of Christians has become a firm ecumenical conviction. Consigning to oblivion the excommunications of the past, Communities which were once rivals are now in many cases helping one another: places of worship are sometimes lent out; scholarships are offered for the training of ministers in the Communities most lacking in resources; approaches are made to civil authorities on behalf of other Christians who are unjustly persecuted; and the slander to which certain groups are subjected is shown to be unfounded.
I hope you have the chance to prayerfully read the document of the joint theological commission, perhaps after thoughtfully re-reading Ut Unum Sint.

At this stage of my life and work, it is hard to put into a few words my thoughts about Martin Luther. My own work demanded that I come to know him in a way I would never have envisioned I would need to and in ways I didn’t think of him decades ago, if indeed I thought of him back then that much at all. I have come to see him through very different eyes than those of my younger self; it was a task I did not seek but which Providence handed me and it has profoundly affected me. I suppose it mirrors, in some way, what the document calls all Catholics to do in this time of reflection.

Yes…Martin Luther did many things and made many choices that were wrong. Tragically. But he did not “make a mess” by himself…he had a lot of help over many years by many people with many issues and many motives. The mess was far broader, and on many sides, with civil authorities as well as religious authorities readily advancing the mess by what they did and did not do. He was reacting to many things that were extraordinarily wrong – and the reactions were often with their own tragic qualities.

Over these later years, actually, I have had to often wonder what would be the reaction today if a fraction of the things occurring then occurred now. I’ve concluded, as my personal opinion, that today’s reaction would actually be even more remarkable.

Part of the joint commemoration is the purification of memories for both Catholics and Lutherans…the acknowledgement that there was sin on every side…and the mandate to take a fresh look at history with detachment & dispassion. I won’t live to see the ultimate results but they are safely in God’s hands. As are the family members that you love and pray for.

Grace and peace to you.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
…
  1. Every commemoration has its own context. Today, the context includes three main challenges, which present both opportunities and obligations: (1) It is the first commemoration to take place during the ecumenical age. Therefore, the common commemoration is an occasion to deepen communion between Catholics and Lutherans. (2) It is the first commemoration in the age of globalization. Therefore, the common commemoration must incorporate the experiences and perspectives of Christians from South and North, East and West. (3) It is the first commemoration that must deal with the necessity of a new evangelization in a time marked by both the proliferation of new religious movements and, at the same time, the growth of secularization in many places. Therefore, the common commemoration has the opportunity and obligation to be a common witness of faith.
  2. Relatively early, 31 October 1517 became a symbol of the sixteenth-century Protestant Reformation. Still today, many Lutheran churches remember each year on 31 October the event known as “the Reformation.” The centennial celebrations of the Reformation have been lavish and festive. The opposing viewpoints of the different confessional groups have been especially visible at these events. For Lutherans, these commemorative days and centennials were occasions for telling once again the story of the beginning of the characteristic— “evangelical”—form of their church in order to justify their distinctive existence. This was naturally tied to a critique of the Roman Catholic Church. On the other side, Catholics took such commemorative events as opportunities to accuse Lutherans of an unjustifiable division from the true church and a rejection of the gospel of Christ.
/…/
  1. The year 2017 will see the first centennial commemoration of the Reformation to take place during the ecumenical age. It will also mark fifty years of Lutheran–Roman Catholic dialogue. As part of the ecumenical movement, praying together, worshipping together, and serving their communities together have enriched Catholics and Lutherans. They also face political, social, and economic challenges together. The spirituality evident in interconfessional marriages has brought forth new insights and questions. Lutherans and Catholics have been able to reinterpret their theological traditions and practices, recognizing the influences they have had on each other. Therefore, they long to commemorate 2017 together.
  2. These changes demand a new approach. It is no longer adequate simply to repeat earlier accounts of the Reformation period, which presented Lutheran and Catholic perspectives separately and often in opposition to one another. Historical remembrance always selects from among a great abundance of historical moments and assimilates the selected elements into a meaningful whole. Because these accounts of the past were mostly oppositional, they not infrequently intensified the conflict between the confessions and sometimes led to open hostility.
  3. The historical remembrance has had material consequences for the relationship of the confessions to each other. For this reason, a common ecumenical remembrance of the Lutheran Reformation is both so important and at the same time so difficult. Even today, many Catholics associate the word “Reformation” first of all with the division of the church, while many Lutheran Christians associate the word “Reformation” chiefly with the rediscovery of the gospel, certainty of faith and freedom. It will be necessary to take both points of departure seriously in order to relate the two perspectives to each other and bring them into dialogue.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the information. I think probably not many Catholics are familiar with this document.

The bolded part is fair and reasonable enough. However, if that is the purpose for the celebration of the Reformation anniversary, then it would need a lot of selling to the Catholic masses. At best, while the themes is good ecumenism, it is not quite reflecting the commemoration of the Reformation, with is obvious and simple, the breaking away from the Church by people who opposed her belief and teachings.

If the dicastery of the Holy See is handling this, it seems very far from the general mind of the ordinary Catholics, but more so, very little is known about it.

What I am saying, the theme is good, ecumenism is good, but the title ‘Anniversary of the Reformation’ is misleading. I know I am saying this because I do not fully know the full picture but I am sure if I don’t, there would be many more who are like me.
 
CompSciGuy said:
I have been following some threads recently in which LordHaveMercy and a number of other users have participated, and often they have been attacked and ridiculed for pointing out the obvious: that many leaders in the Church today seem to find it necessary and good to celebrate error in the name of unity and peace. To celebrate heresy with heretics and paganism with pagans as an act of goodwill. There seems to be a general idea that anything that Church leaders do must be right. I imagine that such Catholics as these, if they had lived in the right century, would have applauded the sale of indulgences or the promotion of crusade aggression.

There has to be some line that we won’t cross. If the Catholic Church claims to be the one true Church, claims to carry on the apostolic ministry, then it must boldly proclaim this (albeit with charity) and not be apologetic about it. The Church must be oriented so as to draw people to herself. Celebrating one of the most tragic schisms in Church history is not conducive to unity at all. It is promoting error. It is tantamount to telling Protestants that the reformation was a good thing and that Luther was right to break away from the Church. This will not encourage conversion…
Click to expand...
I have to ask, and I mean this in all sincerity, is this post meant to be ironic or is the problem simply that it is being read by a theologian? Had I received these statements incorporated into an essay from one of my students, he would have received a high mark for his cleverness in spinning Luther’s own thought to express a Catholic’s fidelity to the depositum fidei.
  • [M]any leaders in the Church today seem to find it necessary and good to celebrate error
  • To celebrate heresy
  • There seems to be a general idea that anything that Church leaders do must be right
  • uch Catholics as these, if they had lived in the right century, would have applauded the sale of indulgences
    [*]There has to be some line that we won’t cross

And when you find the line that you won’t cross, how will you manifest it to those “leaders in the Church today” against whom you are…protesting?

Whether you intended to or not, each of the points I highlighted express, and very well, the concerns of a certain Augustinian friar living in Rome in 1510.

In any event, if you read the actual document, From Conflict to Communion, you will see we are not talking about a celebration at all, least of all thereby the promotion of error from either perspective. Again, if you read the document, you will see just how much effort, on both sides, has gone into an analysis of what was…an analysis that is far more carefully weighed to arrive at truth than were the polemics that have marked previous centuries.

Lutherans, for the first time, are articulating a centennial anniversary in words not indicative of a celebration…just as Catholics, for the first time, are commemorating the anniversary as it is part of our history, too – the departure of German, Swedish, and other Catholics who walked no more with Rome can’t be dismissed as of no meaning to our life and history. The commemoration, like the 50 years of dialogue, and the gestures of the Popes in their interactions with Lutherans are about healing what happened in the past.
*223. As members of one body, Catholics and Lutherans remember together the events of the Reformation that led to the reality that thereafter they lived in divided communities even though they still belonged to one body. That is an impossible possibility and the source of great pain. Because they belong to one body, Catholics and Lutherans struggle in the face of their division toward the full catholicity of the church. This struggle has two sides: the recognition of what is common and joins them together, and the recognition of what divides. The first is reason for gratitude and joy; the second is reason for pain and lament.
  1. In 2017, when Lutheran Christians celebrate the anniversary of the beginning of the Reformation, they are not thereby celebrating the division of the Western church. No one who is theologically responsible can celebrate the division of Christians from one another. *
    At times, the assessment is actually quite blunt:
    233. How theologians presented their theological convictions in the battle for public opinion is quite another matter. In the sixteenth century, Catholics and Lutherans frequently not only misunderstood but also exaggerated and caricatured their opponents in order to make them look ridiculous. They repeatedly violated the eighth commandment, which prohibits bearing false witness against one’s neighbor. Even if the opponents were sometimes intellectually fair to one another, their willingness to hear the other and to take his concerns seriously was insufficient. The controversialists wanted to refute and overcome their opponents, often deliberately exacerbating conflicts rather than seeking solutions by looking for what they held in common. Prejudices and misunderstandings played a great role in the characterization of the other side. Oppositions were constructed and handed down to the next generation. Here both sides have every reason to regret and lament the way in which they conducted their debates. Both Lutherans and Catholics bear the guilt that needs to be openly confessed in the remembrance of the events of 500 years ago.
    I conclude with two of my favorite sentences for dry wit…although the “dawning awareness” heralded by the joint theological commission does indeed not seem to have reached every hamlet yet.
    238. Catholics and Lutherans realize that they and the communities in which they live out their faith belong to the one body of Christ. The awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the sixteenth century is over.
 
total_Catholic said:
Wow, calling Jesus a liar eh?

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papac1.htm
Click to expand...
Wow! Ignoring the 8th commandment?

The use of the “calling Christ a liar” polemic lacks any value, regardless of its source. Lutherans and Catholics are long past accusing each other of calling Christ a liar. If you wish to contend that our view of the primacy is mistaken, even opposed ( or anti-) to Christ, we can debate the issue. Lying includes an intention to deceive. Unless you have proof that we believe Christ intentionally deceived ( you won’t find it), to say that we call Christ a liar is obviously false.

Jon
 
Peter_J said:
Originally Posted by Common Prayer
“We confess our own ways of thinking and acting that perpetuate the divisions
of the past. As communities and as individuals, we build many walls around
us: mental, spiritual, physical, political walls that result in discrimination
and violence. Forgive us, Lord.”

The Lord told me to take the plank out of my own eye … Sounds to me like whoever composed the above prayer received the same message. Maybe I’m just not understanding the objections that some have to that prayer, but for those who are Catholic I would recommend the Catechism of the Catholic Church #817, specifically the assertion that I have bolded below:

In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.

(That quotes from Vatican II, so I’m probably not making any friends among the hard-core “traditionalist” Catholics, but c’est la vie, right? 😦 :o)
Click to expand...
Yes, people on both sides were to blame. But the blameworthy things Catholics did are considered sins by our Church which we should repent of (abuse of indulgences, disobeying the commandments and evangelical counsels, etc.). The blameworthy things of the Reformers include the same but also ways of thinking that are fundamental aspects and dogmas of their religion and create the real, substantial barriers to true unity–doctrines that depart from the faith. If these doctrinal differences didn’t exist, not matter what other sins we commit, we would all be united in Christ’s one Catholic Church. That’s the difference. If a Lutheran is honestly repentant of these things as the prayer implies, he would convert to Catholicism. If he’s not repentant of them, he shouldn’t pray the prayer. Otherwise, the prayer is misleading and dishonest since the Lutheran is not actually confessing those real ways of thinking that prevent unity. Likewise, a Catholic would sin against the faith if he repented of his way of thinking that holds as articles of faith dogmas that Lutherans refuse to assent to.

The decree on ecumenism also condemns a “false irenicism.” We can’t pretend we agree when we really don’t by making up an ambiguous formula we can both technically assent to, even though we give it opposed meanings.
 
Genesis315 said:
If a Lutheran is honestly repentant of these things as the prayer implies, he would convert to Catholicism.
Click to expand...
I’ve known lots and lots of “traditionalist” Catholics (and Orthodox for that matter, but that’s pretty off topic) so at this point stuff like the above tends to get little more than a yawn out of me.

On the other hand, I’m guessing that you’ve had non-traditionalist Catholics tell you that you’re wrong lots and lots of times, so I’m not going to presume that it would change your mind if I told you.

Blessings,
Peter Jericho
 
JonNC said:
Matthew 16:18 makes no mention, no where in the Bible does it make mention- that salvation is contingent, in whole or in part, on being in communion with any one particular bishop.

Jon
Click to expand...
Sure it does. It is as follows:

1) First, the necessity of belonging to the Church for salvation by baptism, profession of faith, and social communion is in scripture (ie heresy and schism are bad):

If you’re not a member of the Body of Christ, how can you have His life in you? Think about it, if you cut off one of your own members, it’ll shrivel up and die. So you need to be baptized into the one Body in the one Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13), partake of the one bread as one Body (1 Cor. 10:17), profess the One Lord, one faith, one Baptism (Eph 4:4-5). Like Noah’s ark, you have to be on board (as the Bible says, like Noah’s ark in the flood, Baptism now saves (1 Peter 3:20-21), and as I mentioned earlier, we are baptized into one Body, apart from which, one cannot be saved–so the ark and the Body have the same significance in this regard).

Furthermore, to have fellowship or communion with Christ, you must have fellowship with those who have fellowship with Him (1 John 1:3). We are forbidden, therefore, from schisms and must be united in belief (1 Cor. 1:10). Heresy and schism exclude from salvation (Gal 5. 20-21; Titus 3:10-11). Baptism of course is also necessary (John 3:3).

So we have to belong to the Church to be saved. But which Church is the right one?

2) Second, the Church of Christ is the one subject to St. Peter and his sucessors:
Our Lord gave charge of His flock to St. Peter (John 21:15-17) and built His Church on St. Peter and His profession of faith, which cannot fail (Matt. 16:15-19, Luke 22:31-32). Therefore, if you’re not a member of the flock subject to Peter and profess= his common faith, you’re not a member of Christ’s one Church. And since it is necessary to belong to that Church for salvation, it is necessary to be in communion with the See of St. Peter.
 
Reuben_J said:
What I am saying, the theme is good, ecumenism is good, but the title ‘Anniversary of the Reformation’ is misleading.
Click to expand...
Possibly.

The question I have, that nobody seems to want to ask, is will Lutherans join Catholics in celebrating the anniversary of the Council of Trent?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top