Father
Some, on both sides, are quite intent and comfortable fighting the old fights in the same old way
Jon
Catholics and Lutherans to worship together at Reformation anniversary
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Some, on both sides, are quite intent and comfortable fighting the old fights in the same old way
Jon
D
Don_Ruggero
Guest
From Pope Saint John Paul II, extracts from Ut Unum Sint:
/…/
[72 cont’d] In this respect I would like to mention one demonstration dictated by fraternal charity and marked by deep clarity of faith which made a profound impression on me. I am speaking of the Eucharistic celebrations at which I presided in Finland and Sweden during my journey to the Scandinavian and Nordic countries. At Communion time, the Lutheran Bishops approached the celebrant. They wished, by means of an agreed gesture, to demonstrate their desire for that time when we, Catholics and Lutherans, will be able to share the same Eucharist, and they wished to receive the celebrant’s blessing. With love I blessed them. The same gesture, so rich in meaning, was repeated in Rome at the Mass at which I presided in Piazza Farnese, on the sixth centenary of the canonization of Saint Birgitta of Sweden, on 6 October 1991.
- It is not just the Pope who has become a pilgrim. In recent years, many distinguished leaders of other Churches and Ecclesial Communities have visited me in Rome, and I have been able to join them in prayer, both in public and in private. I have already mentioned the visit of the Ecumenical Patriarch Dimitrios I. I would now like to recall the prayer meeting, also held in Saint Peter’s Basilica, at which I joined the Lutheran Archbishops, the Primates of Sweden and Finland, for the celebration of Vespers on the occasion of the Sixth Centenary of the Canonization of Saint Birgitta (5 October 1991). This is just one example, because awareness of the duty to pray for unity has become an integral part of the Church’s life. There is no important or significant event which does not benefit from Christians coming together and praying . It is impossible for me to give a complete list of such meetings, even though each one deserves to be mentioned. Truly the Lord has taken us by the hand and is guiding us. These exchanges and these prayers have already written pages and pages of our “Book of unity”, a “Book” which we must constantly return to and re-read so as to draw from it new inspiration and hope.
- Dialogue does not extend exclusively to matters of doctrine but engages the whole person; it is also a dialogue of love. The Council has stated: “Catholics must joyfully acknowledge and esteem the truly Christian endowments from our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brothers and sisters. It is right and salutary to recognize the riches of Christ and virtuous works in the lives of others who are bearing witness to Christ, sometimes even to the shedding of their blood. For God is always wonderful in his works and worthy of admiration”.
- The relationships which the members of the Catholic Church have established with other Christians since the Council have enabled us to discover what God is bringing about in the members of other Churches and Ecclesial Communities. This direct contact, at a variety of levels, with pastors and with the members of these Communities has made us aware of the witness which other Christians bear to God and to Christ. A vast new field has thus opened up for the whole ecumenical experience, which at the same time is the great challenge of our time. Is not the twentieth century a time of great witness, which extends “even to the shedding of blood”? And does not this witness also involve the various Churches and Ecclesial Communities which take their name from Christ, Crucified and Risen?
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[72 cont’d] In this respect I would like to mention one demonstration dictated by fraternal charity and marked by deep clarity of faith which made a profound impression on me. I am speaking of the Eucharistic celebrations at which I presided in Finland and Sweden during my journey to the Scandinavian and Nordic countries. At Communion time, the Lutheran Bishops approached the celebrant. They wished, by means of an agreed gesture, to demonstrate their desire for that time when we, Catholics and Lutherans, will be able to share the same Eucharist, and they wished to receive the celebrant’s blessing. With love I blessed them. The same gesture, so rich in meaning, was repeated in Rome at the Mass at which I presided in Piazza Farnese, on the sixth centenary of the canonization of Saint Birgitta of Sweden, on 6 October 1991.
I see. Have you brought this up with the Pope Francis, or the theologians that have developed these prayers? Are you saying that the Holy Father is wrong?
Actually, the disagreement has evolved, IMO. It is now more seeking solutions for what we disagree on. The fundamental obstacle now is finding the path, set out by the Holy Spirit, that leads to unity, instead of the constant firing of salvos back and forth.
But we can agree that our division is based on sin, and on that point we can readily share the “confessional”, seeking absolution for our individual and mutual parts in that division.
To be sure, there are some Catholics and some Lutherans who will deny they have a share in this division. I think that is a misguided view that actually hurts the cause of unifying Christ’s one True Church.
Actually, from my perspective, you did far worse than call us liars: you accused us of calling Christ a liar.
Jon
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
Yes. Tragically. To act in such a way, however, is to follow neither the teachings nor the example of the Successor of Peter and the leadership of the Cardinals and Bishops who put the Popes’ teaching and example into practice.
The ecumenical council and the teachings from Pope Saint John XXIII forward have given us very clearly a new vocabulary, new hermeneutics, and new paradigms both to see the past and to interact with those with whom we once had full communion but now do not – but whom we are journeying together with in order to heal what was broken and to restore lost unity.
The documents are freely and readily available for any Catholic, or indeed anyone of good will, to read them and understand the mind of Rome.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Correction Jon. Not really. Maybe Lutherans?
I think most of them just want it done right and perhaps the reason given have not been convincing enough. Boy, we all still have many tough road ahead.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
There may be some who hear this for the first time. For such a matter as important and as passionate such as this, give them time for it to sink in. They are alright. The majority of them are decent folks. 
P
pablope
Guest
That rebellion has also led to countless division…do you turn a blind eye to this?
Do you think this is a good outcome of the rebellion?
P
pablope
Guest
That is an ingrained belief…Will stay there till the second coming…
P
pablope
Guest
But you do…and believe the popemto be the anti-christ…correct?
P
pablope
Guest
According to your interpretation…so the question is…is yourninterpretation the only one and the corect one?
V
Vico
Guest
This is what the statement says:
But detailed talks between the Lutheran World Federation and the Vatican produced a 93-page report titled “From Conflict to Communion” in 2013 that announced they would mark the anniversary together and presented the Reformation as the start of a shared 500-year journey rather than a single and divisive historical event.
That document “From Conflict to Communion” states:
- As members of one body, Catholics and Lutherans remember together the events of the Reformation that led to the reality that thereafter they lived in divided communities even though they still belonged to one body. That is an impossible possibility and the source of great pain. Because they belong to one body, Catholics and Lutherans struggle in the face of their division toward the full catholicity of the church. This struggle has two sides: the recognition of what is common and joins them together, and the recognition of what divides. The first is reason for gratitude and joy; the second is reason for pain and lament.
L
LordHaveMercy
Guest
I am very much enjoying this dialogue. Thank you for your prayers, Father.
I have certainly found the words in Ut Unum Sint quite cheery, I can see why it is a favorite of yours. Ut Unum Sint is read in continuity with Pope Leo XII’s Satis Cognitum and Pope Piux XI’s Mortalium Animo, reading these three encyclicals really opens our eyes to the beautiful unity of the Church. Pope Saint John Paul II offers such a loving, passionate pep talk reminding us of our duty to pray for Christian unity, and Pope Leo tells us what that unity that JP2 asks us to pray for looks like:
Then Pope Pius tells us how we are to promote that unity:
It’s very comforting to see that Popes John Paul II, Pius XI and Leo XIII were so dutiful in their desire for all of the baptized to be reunited to the Church. Each of the latter two, in his encyclical, even addresses those outside the Church directly:
Pope Leo XIII
And Pius XI even offers his apostolic benediction to them
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Thanks for the excerpt from the document.
It is a slow and tortuous process of dialogue towards unity, a result we all pray for. So the efforts towards it are commended and that is what holy men of God should do. So I think nobody is against that.
The issue here is perhaps more on the appropriateness. Why on Reformation anniversary? Nothing there for Catholics and at first glance, it seems like finally an approval for the Reformation.
Even the wording, “the recognition of what is common” during the Reformation does not look right. What is common there that led to the Reformation?
The joint Catholic/Lutheran team would be wise to find a neutral occasion to declare such a noble objective, rather than the Reformation anniversary, which is decidedly Lutherans affair. Done wrongly and without prudence especially to the reality on the ground, it can cause old wound to be opened that may result in greater harm than unity.
D
Don_Ruggero
Guest
Neither side denies that there were tragic outcomes…occasioned by those on both sides. Pope Benedict explained eloquently, and reflectively, on how much he appreciated the reality that poor judgements of the past exacerbated bad situations and made them worse. He wrote in a letter to the world’s Catholic bishops in July 2007:
Looking back over the past, to the divisions which in the course of the centuries have rent the Body of Christ, one continually has the impression that, at critical moments when divisions were coming about, not enough was done by the Church’s leaders to maintain or regain reconciliation and unity. One has the impression that omissions on the part of the Church have had their share of blame for the fact that these divisions were able to harden. This glance at the past imposes an obligation on us today: to make every effort to enable for all those who truly desire unity to remain in that unity or to attain it anew. I think of a sentence in the Second Letter to the Corinthians, where Paul writes: “Our mouth is open to you, Corinthians; our heart is wide. You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections. In return … widen your hearts also!” (2 Cor 6:11-13). Paul was certainly speaking in another context, but his exhortation can and must touch us too, precisely on this subject. Let us generously open our hearts and make room for everything that the faith itself allows.
w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi.html
There has been mutual acknowledgement which has already occurred, by Catholics and Lutherans, that things were tragically handled. The ceremony of common prayer simply places this in a context of a joint worship service. That both sides acted in a way harmful to Church unity does not negate that there emerged also good, which is also to be acknowledged and confessed. It is a basic premise that out of evil, God can bring a greater good.
What is more, I think our Holy Father speaks well, at the end of this address to the Lutheran Archbishop of Uppsala and her entourage, of the good done by Lutherans in her country and the impact of one Lutheran in particular upon him.
*
I greet you cordially and I thank you for your kind words. Last year, with gratitude to God, we celebrated the fiftieth anniversary of the Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio, which is still for us the fundamental point of reference for the ecumenical efforts of the Catholic Church. This document made clear that ecumenism was henceforth to become a priority. It invited all Catholics to undertake the way of unity, in recognition of the signs of the times, so that division among Christians could be overcome. Such division is not only in opposition to the will of Christ, but is indeed a scandal in the world, as it damages the most sacred of duties: the preaching of the Gospel to every creature.
In speaking of the “seamless robe of Christ” (No. 13), the Decree expressed deep respect for and appreciation of our separated brethren, to whom, in our daily lives, we risk paying too little attention. They should not be perceived as adversaries or competitors, but rather recognized for what they are: brothers and sisters in faith.
Catholics and Lutherans need to seek and promote unity in their dioceses, parishes and communities across the whole world. On the way towards full and visible unity in the faith, in sacramental life and in ecclesial ministry there remains much work still to be done. But we can be certain that the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, will be always the light and strength of spiritual ecumenism and theological dialogue.
With appreciation I wish also to recall the recent document entitled From Conflict to Communion: Lutheran-Catholic Common Commemoration of the Reformation in 2017, published by the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Commission on Unity. It is with heartfelt hope that this initiative – with the help of God and through our cooperation with him and among ourselves – may encourage further steps in the path towards unity.
The call to unity as disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ carries with it the urgent summons to a common commitment to charity in favour of all those in the world who suffer as a result of extreme poverty and violence; they especially need our mercy. The witness of our persecuted brothers and sisters, in particular, stirs us to grow in fraternal communion.
Urgent also is the vital issue of the dignity of human life, which is always to be respected. So, too, are issues concerning the family, marriage and sexuality. These cannot be suppressed or ignored, simply for fear of risking the ecumenical consensus already achieved. It would indeed be sad if in these important matters new confessional differences were to arise.
Dear friends, I thank you again for your visit. In the hope that Lutheran-Catholic collaboration will be strengthened, I pray that the Lord may bless each of you abundantly, as well as your communities.
I would like, in addition, to express my gratitude for two things. First of all, I wish to thank the Swedish Lutheran Church for welcoming so many South American migrants in the time of the dictatorships. This fraternal welcome made it possible to raise families. In the second place, I wish to thank you for the delicacy, dear sister, with which you mentioned my good friend, Pastor Anders Root; I shared the Chair of Spiritual Theology with him, and he helped me a great deal in my own spiritual life. Thank you. *
w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2015/may/documents/papa-francesco_20150504_chiesa-evangelico-luterana-svezia.html
Pablope. I wish you would stop intentionally misrepresenting our belief on the matter.
Jon
Indeed. The intention of the dialogue is to overcome differences. And come to a convergence on issues that separate us, so that we can be in a true communion with each other, and that the mutual condemnations of the Reformation era that still exist can be buried at last.
Jon
V
Vico
Guest
What is common is the common origin in the Pentecost.Thanks for the excerpt from the document.
It is a slow and tortuous process of dialogue towards unity, a result we all pray for. So the efforts towards it are commended and that is what holy men of God should do. So I think nobody is against that.
The issue here is perhaps more on the appropriateness. Why on Reformation anniversary? Nothing there for Catholics and at first glance, it seems like finally an approval for the Reformation.
Even the wording, “the recognition of what is common” during the Reformation does not look right. What is common there that led to the Reformation?
The joint Catholic/Lutheran team would be wise to find a neutral occasion to declare such a noble objective, rather than the Reformation anniversary, which is decidedly Lutherans affair. Done wrongly and without prudence especially to the reality on the ground, it can cause old wound to be opened that may result in greater harm than unity.
They also state about why it is at the 500 year anniversary:
- How theologians presented their theological convictions in the battle for public opinion is quite another matter. In the sixteenth century, Catholics and Lutherans frequently not only misunderstood but also exaggerated and caricatured their opponents in order to make them look ridiculous. They repeatedly violated the eighth commandment, which Baptism: The basis for unity and common commemoration 83 prohibits bearing false witness against one’s neighbor. Even if the opponents were sometimes intellectually fair to one another, their willingness to hear the other and to take his concerns seriously was insufficient. The controversialists wanted to refute and overcome their opponents, often deliberately exacerbating conflicts rather than seeking solutions by looking for what they held in common. Prejudices and misunderstandings played a great role in the characterization of the other side. Oppositions were constructed and handed down to the next generation. Here both sides have every reason to regret and lament the way in which they conducted their debates. Both Lutherans and Catholics bear the guilt that needs to be openly confessed in the remembrance of the events of 500 years ago.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
If you want to, you need to explain the origin of Pentecost in the Reformation.
I agree with the bold last part. That would be a time of grace.
D
Don_Ruggero
Guest
Catholics and Lutherans together confess that the birth of the Church was Pentecost…just as both acknowledge, within themselves and within the other, the fundamental operation of the Holy Spirit in the exercise of ministry.
The points in which Catholics and Lutherans have reached consensus and the points in which they have not are quite well defined in From Conflict to Communion.
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