Catholics and Lutherans to worship together at Reformation anniversary

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The joint Catholic/Lutheran team would be wise to find a neutral occasion to declare such a noble objective, rather than the Reformation anniversary, which is decidedly Lutherans affair. Done wrongly and without prudence especially to the reality on the ground, it can cause old wound to be opened that may result in greater harm than unity.
Perhaps this would be unrealistic, but a part of me wishes that the documents would speak of commemorating “reform movements” (that is, the Catholic Reformation as well as the Protestant Reformation(s)) rather than just saying “the Reformation”.
 
Correction Jon. Not really. Maybe Lutherans? 😉

I think most of them just want it done right and perhaps the reason given have not been convincing enough. Boy, we all still have many tough road ahead.
I think there are some on both sides. But I agree that, at least on our side, there is tension between those who are willing to compromise everything and anything, and those of us who want to see a true unity, based on convergence, not compromise.

Jon
 
If you want to, you need to explain the origin of Pentecost in the Reformation.

I agree with the bold last part. That would be a time of grace.
Alright, that was in this item:
  1. Because they believe that they belong to the one body of Christ, Lutherans emphasize that their church did not originate with the Reformation or come into existence only 500 years ago. Rather, they are convinced that the Lutheran churches have their origin in the Pentecost event and the proclamation of the apostles. Their churches obtained their particular form, however, through the teaching and efforts of the reformers. The reformers had no desire to found a new church, and according to their own understanding, they did not do so. They wanted to reform the church, and they managed to do so within their field of influence, albeit with errors and missteps.
 
Alright, that was in this item:
  1. Because they believe that they belong to the one body of Christ, Lutherans emphasize that their church did not originate with the Reformation or come into existence only 500 years ago. Rather, they are convinced that the Lutheran churches have their origin in the Pentecost event and the proclamation of the apostles. Their churches obtained their particular form, however, through the teaching and efforts of the reformers. The reformers had no desire to found a new church, and according to their own understanding, they did not do so. They wanted to reform the church, and they managed to do so within their field of influence, albeit with errors and missteps.
I think 222 will find huge problem among Catholics. It is in direct competition with the Catholic Church, where one must be right and the other wrong.

I would just trust that the Church is doing the right things. As I said, it would be hard sale to those Catholics who do not read much such documents.

Thanks again for the trouble.🙂

God bless.
 
But you do…and believe the popemto be the anti-christ…correct?
When have I ever said that ? No he’s not the anti christ , I’ve stated that I respect the veiw though . And that’s beside the point , what your doing is taking a small belief and making it the belief of the whole .
 
That rebellion has also led to countless division…do you turn a blind eye to this?

Do you think this is a good outcome of the rebellion?
Do you turn a blind eye to the fact that hundreds of millions are following Christ directly because of the reformation ?
 
Do you turn a blind eye to the fact that hundreds of millions are following Christ directly because of the reformation ?
Condemning the reformation in no way indicates a lack of joy for any of the conversions that you mention. In human acts, the ends cannot justify the means. An evil act with good consequences is still an evil act. As Christians, we know that God can bring good out of evil. So, if there are conversions that are ‘directly because of the reformation’ as you say, we thank God for his infinite mercy in bringing good out of an evil situation.
 
I am very much enjoying this dialogue. Thank you for your prayers, Father.

I have certainly found the words in Ut Unum Sint quite cheery, I can see why it is a favorite of yours. Ut Unum Sint is read in continuity with Pope Leo XII’s Satis Cognitum and Pope Piux XI’s Mortalium Animo, reading these three encyclicals really opens our eyes to the beautiful unity of the Church. Pope Saint John Paul II offers such a loving, passionate pep talk reminding us of our duty to pray for Christian unity, and Pope Leo tells us what that unity that JP2 asks us to pray for looks like.
You are incorrect. Theologically and in my regard about Ut Unum Sint.

It’s not a matter of “cheery words.” They are profoundly serious concepts that re-order theological thinking. This encyclical expresses what the Church believes and teaches in areas which have been fundamental to my work. One doesn’t get to choose to live in a past era; it is the Magisterium, speaking its teachings today, to which we are faithful. Ut Unum Sint supersedes previous documents. I fully embrace its vision and mandate.

The mind of the Church on ecumenism fundamentally changed at Vatican II. As the Council Fathers said, “The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council.” They charted a course ahead very different from that previous. That is what Pope Saint John Paul II implemented and greatly expanded.

The texts you cite are from an era in which Rome was not engaged in the nascent ecumenical movement. That changed. As did Rome’s vision and approach regarding how she viewed non Catholic Christians – in their own regard and in relation to her.

To read what Pope John Paul II wrote as a continuation of Pope Leo XIII or Pope Pius XI would be a fundamental error. Rather, it is the approach of the Council to which you must look for the Saint’s orientation. Similarly, how popes before Vatican II envisioned a Church restored to unity would be radically different from today and no longer even relevant.

To be clear: John Paul II was not making a “pep talk”. He was as expressive to the contemporary Church as the documents you cite were to the contemporary Church of their day…except that was a time which has passed and he re-orients how the Church thinks and speaks about these matters today.

John Paul’s encyclical indicates the inadequacy of past formulations. The Church, confessing this, uses language, concepts, and analogies better suited to a new understanding because, with reflection and the assistance of the Holy Spirit, there is a deeper theological awareness of these matters. That in part is what John Paul was articulating in Ut Unum Sint.

One cannot look to Tertullian’s initial use of persona in the 2nd/3rd century yet ignore how Chalcedon will use Tertullian’s thought in the 5th century. The past informs the present but the present knows more than the past. Such has been the work of the Spirit from the Church’s beginning as, across centuries, the Church under His guidance ever more precisely formulates in human words the depositum fidei. We saw it with Trinitarian theology, Christology and, lately, Mariology.

So with ecclesiology. What was begun in Unitatis Redintegratio continues forward. That is why the earlier language you cite is now seen as inadequate of what the Magisterium articulates. It is not a matter of other Christians existing “outside the Church”; today the Magisterium ever more understands the relationship of these Christians to the Catholic Church in a deeper and fuller way since, as the pope articulated, “we all belong to Christ.”

This is also why John Paul said “the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions.” The words of the Council Fathers, who sought the new language of a new era of ecumenism, is no longer adequate in the face of the developing awareness that is the gift of the Holy Spirit.

There is more reason that the Council Fathers at Vatican II charted a new course for the work of Christian unity. Not only is the language you quote no longer employed by the Church…neither is the model presented for Church unity. It would have been unimaginable in either pontificate you cite that Anglicans, while retaining their proper name as Anglicans and their heritage which they developed before and after the reign of Henry VIII, would enter into full communion with Rome and become Ordinariates in the Catholic Church…that they would moreover have their own liturgy that retains treasured elements from the English reformation…and that the Roman Church would acknowledge that she is enriched by receiving into herself this heritage of the reform.

The paradigm of the Anglican Use Ordinariate of the Roman Rite foreshadows that the restoration of unity is no longer seen in Rome or by her dialogue partners as non Catholics closing shop, turning their back on what they had lived, and becoming Roman Catholic…the previous model. That would deny something fundamental that the council taught: God Himself is at work in the worship of those who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church – and where He is at work, the Church is compelled to recognise and confess that. The centuries of existence of these Christians, with the Spirit at work in and through them, has a consequence that has to be accounted for. It is about restoring unity and full communion among “all [who] belong to Christ.”
 
In

deed. The intention of the dialogue is to overcome differences. And come to a convergence on issues that separate us, so that we can be in a true communion with each other, and that the mutual condemnations of the Reformation era that still exist can be buried at last.

Jon
Jon,
I thought the LCMS was not part of the LWF. Is the LCMS involved in this dialogue as well?

Mary.
 
You are incorrect. Theologically and in my regard about Ut Unum Sint.

It’s not a matter of “cheery words.” They are profoundly serious concepts that re-order theological thinking. This encyclical expresses what the Church believes and teaches in areas which have been fundamental to my work. One doesn’t get to choose to live in a past era; it is the Magisterium, speaking its teachings today, to which we are faithful. Ut Unum Sint supersedes previous documents. I fully embrace its vision and mandate.

The mind of the Church on ecumenism fundamentally changed at Vatican II. As the Council Fathers said, “The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council.” They charted a course ahead very different from that previous. That is what Pope Saint John Paul II implemented and greatly expanded.

The texts you cite are from an era in which Rome was not engaged in the nascent ecumenical movement. That changed. As did Rome’s vision and approach regarding how she viewed non Catholic Christians – in their own regard and in relation to her.

To read what Pope John Paul II wrote as a continuation of Pope Leo XIII or Pope Pius XI would be a fundamental error. Rather, it is the approach of the Council to which you must look for the Saint’s orientation. Similarly, how popes before Vatican II envisioned a Church restored to unity would be radically different from today and no longer even relevant.
Father it is not a matter of living in the past. The Church has 2000 years of history, it’s one of the greatest things about being Catholic.

Pope Paul VI was clear when he said “Now truly it is helpful to observe, that (although) through her Magisterium, the Church willed to define no primary extraordinary doctrine or dogmatic belief” (Paul VI, Homilia 'Promulgazione Alcuni Documenti Conciliari (December 7, 1965). The Fathers at Vatican II chose not to define any doctrine or moral matter, which is why “the binding force of what is taught under such conditions is subject to two considerations, viz. the authority by which it is taught and its congruity with the remote rule of faith vis. the tradition” (Fr. Chad Ripperger, Magisterial Authority). The binding force of the statements in *Unitatis Redintegratio *is subject to their congruity with the Church’s previous teachings on the same matters.

Above you say "To read what Pope John Paul II wrote as a continuation of Pope Leo XIII or Pope Pius XI would be a fundamental error."

“Popes are also bound by prior non-infallible teachings of the Magisterium which are taught in the tradition, unless they speak with a higher magisterial voice” (Fr. Chad Ripperger, Magisterial Authority). If Pope Saint John Paul II’s words are to be interpreted as breaking continuity with either *Satis Cognitum *or Mortalium Animo, both encyclicals, in a superseding manner, they would be made from a higher magisterial voice. Non-infallible Papal statements do not “supersede” previous non-infallible statements when made from the same magisterial voice.

Further “Greater weight is given when more than one pope speaks on an issue than when one pope speaks on an issue, unless the subsequent pope promulgates the teaching infallibly or in a manner which is of higher authority” (Fr. Chad Ripperger, Magisterial Authority) so if you are certain that Pope John Paul II’s words cannot be a continuation of Popes Leo XIII or Piux XI, then we cannot automatically presume the teachings of one Pope will supersede the teachings of more than one Pope.

Neither* Ut Unum Sint* nor Unitatis Redintegratio seek to define matters of faith and are not infallible teachings. We are required to give assent to them, but we must do so under the guidance of tradition and in continuity with previous teachings on the same issues with the same authority. Neither document presents new statements that are de fide, proximate to faith, theologically certain, doctrine, certain or safe (safe as in the theological term, I am not implying danger). As I have said, I find Pope St. John Paul II’s word edifying read them in continuity with his predecessors. However, if what you say is true and these statements cannot be read in continuity with tradition, then a faithful Catholic could give or refuse assent and not be guilty of being in heresy, error, proximate to error or temerarious either way.
 
Alright, that was in this item:
  1. Because they believe that they belong to the one body of Christ, **Lutherans emphasize that their church did not originate with the Reformation or come into existence only 500 years ago. **Rather, they are convinced that the Lutheran churches have their origin in the Pentecost event and the proclamation of the apostles. Their churches obtained their particular form, however, through the teaching and efforts of the reformers. The reformers had no desire to found a new church, and according to their own understanding, they did not do so. They wanted to reform the church, and they managed to do so within their field of influence, albeit with errors and missteps.
:eek:
 
Augsburg Confession:
Article VII: Of the Church.
1] Also they teach that one holy Church is to continue forever. The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered.
2] And to the true unity of the Church it is enough to agree concerning the doctrine of the Gospel and 3] the administration of the Sacraments. Nor is it necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies, instituted by men, should be everywhere alike. 4] As Paul says: One faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all, etc. Eph. 4:5-6.
Lutherans believe there is One True Church, and we confess One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in the creed. Hence, we believe that one true Church, of which Catholics, Lutherans, Orthodox, and many others are part, started at Pentecost.

Jon
 
Jon,
I thought the LCMS was not part of the LWF. Is the LCMS involved in this dialogue as well?

Mary.
LCMS and other confessional synods typically do not participate in worship with other traditions. I do not expect to see joint worship involving LCMS parishes.

Jon
 
Augsburg Confession:

Lutherans believe there is One True Church, and we confess One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in the creed. Hence, we believe that one true Church, of which Catholics, Lutherans, Orthodox, and many others are part, started at Pentecost.

Jon
As, generally, do Anglicans. If the shock can be withstood.
 
LCMS and other confessional synods typically do not participate in worship with other traditions. I do not expect to see joint worship involving LCMS parishes.

Jon
Yeah but didn’t the LCMS folks get upset because Matt Harrison participated with other Christian leaders in a prayer service for the CT shooting victims in Dec 2012?
 
Yeah but didn’t the LCMS folks get upset because Matt Harrison participated with other Christian leaders in a prayer service for the CT shooting victims in Dec 2012?
That wasn’t President Harrison. It was a local pastor, but yes, LCMS pastors are required to be careful about the appearance of unionism or syncretism.

Jon
 
Oh, I don’t know about that, even in the frame of reference you are using. Depends on which Anglican and which Lutheran you are thinking of.
I think it safe to say that you and I are closer to Catholicism than either of our more liberal counterparts.

Jon
 
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