Catholics and marriage licenses

[Tis_Bearself]

It occurs to me that the OP’s friend’s family may be taking what is the only real true moral stance to take with this lifestyle choice because they have intelligent minds and hearts that are highly attuned to moral issues at a level the rest of us are only baby-beginners at. They may be living martyr-like in this choice,

It occurs to me that the OP’s friend’s family are violating the part of Jesus’ teaching that said “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and give to God what is God’s.”

Jesus had plenty of chances to tell His followers to rebel against the Romans or not pay their taxes. Jesus didn’t. Even though advocating those things would have made him very popular with at least a certain segment of the Jewish people who were hoping the Messiah was coming to set them free from the Romans, not set them free from sin.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

We already know the family has a problem with authority.

They drive without drivers licenses, they attend schools which use public dollars (every uni accepts federal scholarship money) they are trying to make their own laws.

There are some countries to which civil marriage and spiritual marriages are separate matters. However, this was decided by church hierarchy. If the time comes that the hierarchy makes a shift, they will need to do so unilaterally, so as to avoid scandal. And, like in other countries, they still may choose to do so only after a civil marriage has taken place.

As another poster alluded to, should the church forgo civil rules then the impetus would be on them to conduct many things which were at once considered strictly civil issues. They may require a blood test or genealogy brief, they may still require legitimate ID…like a birth certificate (which the OP’s friend doesn’t have)…to conduct a sacrament. They may still require legally signed affidavits to attest that the person is not married spiritually or civilly to anyone else.

It would be a process that the Church would decide upon the tests. It would not be an open free-for-all.

Basically, if signing off on a civil document became untenable then the Church would need to put it’s own “civil” checks and balances in place. In my parish, if only one parent is Catholic and the parents are married the priest requires seeing the birth certificate to verify that the father or mother is the other parent who is making a statement that they allow the baptism and will not interfere with the child being raised Catholic. People not registered to the church at the time of baptism are also asked to provide a photocopy (not legal copy) of a birth certificate so all church records are accurate.

This is the best way they have to ensure that the child in question is being spoken for by his or her parents.

My friend is a single mother who’s ex never registered at their parish. When her daughter received her First Communion she provided a birth certificate and note from the child’s father that he would not interfere with her being raised Catholic. This is MORE than just for legal reasons. This is because it is in the interest of the Church to ensure that a child is not put under duress…and that a parent can make the promies required of the church to raise the child Catholic.

There is NO evidence that the Church would simply erase all civil connections when conducting a sacrament…none.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Eliza10:

It occurs to me that the OP’s friend’s family may be taking what is the only real true moral stance to take with this lifestyle choice because they have intelligent minds and hearts that are highly attuned to moral issues at a level the rest of us are only baby-beginners at. They may be living martyr-like in this choice,

It occurs to me that the OP’s friend’s family are violating the part of Jesus’ teaching that said “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and give to God what is God’s.”

Jesus had plenty of chances to tell His followers to rebel against the Romans or not pay their taxes. Jesus didn’t. Even though advocating those things would have made him very popular with at least a certain segment of the Jewish people who were hoping the Messiah was coming to set them free from the Romans, not set them free from sin.

Yes!

Those who do not pay taxes and avoid getting proper documentation for their children are going against Jesus’ very words. If they drive, then they are also breaking the law. If they attend college, they are again benefiting from a tax system they refuse to pay in to (even the staunchest accredited Catholic Colleges use federal funds). It’s also illegal to not obtain documents for a child after they are born. It’s not easly “undone” It’s called identity abuse and it’s a rising problem among fundie Christian groups.

This is one such case. Just watch the video. It took this woman years to make it right. It’s awful.

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/...e-alecia-pennington-and-identification-abuse/

 

[TheLittleLady]

WOW. And Catholic schools have admitted these kids per the OP?

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavis96, Oh, wow, you came on strong here. I admire a priest who stands for the Catholic Church’s teaching so strongly! Well then, I admire a priest in general. Just especially one who defends the Church teaching.
…

People can respectfully question the practices and question (ie discuss) canon law. People can make suggestions.

That isn’t what is happening in this thread.

The OP is very clearly doing nothing more than attacking the Church and ranting about how the Church is just a puppet of the government, the Church denies people their rights, good priests will disobey the Church, etc. etc.

That is what triggered my outrage.

I am sick and tired of people treating the Catholic Church (and us clergy) as if they pickup the yellow pages and hire a plumber or a caterer, expecting the Church to do whatever they happen to want. And if the Church doesn’t do that, well then, the Church is just ignorant and evil and corrupt.

We are nowhere near the point where the Church should consider having a sacramental marriage over-and-against the civil institution of marriage. If people want to discuss that possibility respectfully, I won’t stand in the way. But this rant here is no such thing. It is nothing more than a long list of ridiculous and groundless charges against the Church, all because the Church won’t do what the OP wants. There is a difference.

 

[FrDavid96]

WOW. And Catholic schools have admitted these kids per the OP?

The children are innocent.

I can see how the Church would not want to punish the children by denying them an education just because the parents are trying to circumvent the law.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

WOW. And Catholic schools have admitted these kids per the OP?

A private school from kindergarden to Masters can admit anyone who is willing to pay full price and not apply for outside scholarship. There is no law stating that one must prove that they even graduated high school to attend, only an attestation form. When it comes to homeschoolers, there are even less tests of proof. If the parents paid cash and used only school-provided scholarships it’s very probable that college was attended. This is often how those who are on expired visas or never here legally, to begin with–attend.

One thing is for sure, however, with E-verify they cannot ever hold a legitimate job. They also cannot vote, get truly adequate health care, or LEGALLY drive. Given that the OP’s friends do drive, they are acting illegally.

 

[FrDavid96]

The Church is a huge legal target. If they mess up it is going to be front page news all across the country. The Church would obviously prefer to not have the bad publicity.
This is true of most sizable religions, not just the Catholic Church.

When a couple approach me for marriage, as part of the overall process I must have a marriage license.

If I attempt to officiate at a marriage ceremony without a license, I would be committing a felony in my own state. It might be a misdemeanor in some states, but in most it’s a felony.

I am not, repeat N…O…T going to risk prosecution of a felony just to help someone else engage in a fraud against the government.

Bad publicity is an understatement. 2 years in the state penitentiary is not something I’m willing to risk.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

TheLittleLady:

WOW. And Catholic schools have admitted these kids per the OP?

The children are innocent.

I can see how the Church would not want to punish the children by denying them an education just because the parents are trying to circumvent the law.

Fr. David is correct.

There is a HUGE difference between public and private schools, however.

And from an administration standpoint, even the most elite private schools do not require birth certificates/SSN unless some sort of aid is being requested or both parents do not sign off on the bills. For some, this is as simple as easier recordkeeping (who doesn’t love cash?) but for others, this extends to international students (yes, even as young as kindergarten) who are “sent” from other countries and do not have the same documentation we do in the US.

Some public schools do turn a blind eye to students who have no documentation–be it they were brought here through a legitimate visa, by underground means, and, yes, even those who try to avoid paying rightful taxes. But we are currently seeing the steep social consequences of that and those legitimately born here whose parents (legal citizens) are actively avoiding being taxed yet using the social system are completely acting sinfully.

 

[Eliza10]

Well you could be right and I could be right but we really can’t judge to know that since we don’t know the story, and their story is not the topic of this post. And, only God knows their hearts.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Well you could be right and I could be right but we really can’t judge to know that since we don’t know the story, and their story is not the topic of this post. And, only God knows their hearts.

We’ve verified that they are doing at least one thing with the full knowledge that it’s illegal because they do not wish to contribute to society as per the norms.

This is NOT about “God knows their hearts”.

The story is a very important part of this post. It is an anti-government family who is riling at the idea that even the Catholic Church accepts the temporal authority of the US government/US states’ government over marriage. It is clearly the forefront of this issue.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Yes.

Father can appreciate this experience (I work for a parish).

We had a couple who was to be married by a Deacon. Father was out of town. The Deacon was conducting the rehearsal on Friday evening. Part of our policy here is to get the marriage license in hand no later than the rehearsal, that way no one forgets it on the kitchen table in the hustle of the big day.

So, deacon asks for the license, both of them and their parties look and say “we need a Marriage license?” They were not trying to circumvent the law, they were clueless and had no idea (smh).

Here it is, Friday night in a small town, deacon calls Father who then calls me. He has informed the couple that if we cannot work a miracle that there will be no wedding because we are not going to break the law.

Thank heavens I was able to call in a favor or two make arrangements for the County Clerk’s office to open up on Saturday morning and get them the license.

 

[Cruciferi]

Getting the proper documentation is possible in the United States. It takes time and lawyers though. The woman in the linked article did obtain everything she needed within two years. There’s no reason that the OP’s friend cannot get the paperwork. Now, about that article, I was homeschooled for 12years and never heard about this kind of stuff! Homeschoolers Anonymous definitely has an axe to grind and they’re definitely not fans of Homeschool Legal Defense. I don’t buy their pessimistic view of homeschooling. My folks reasoning behind homeschooling all five of my siblings wasn’t to control us. It was to give us the very best opportunity to succeed. Three of us have legitimate college degrees and I can honestly say I was far better prepared than any of my peers in college. I feel sorry for anyone who didn’t have a good experience; however, I would contend that withholding documents and identities has nothing to do with schooling. That’s just deranged abuse.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Getting the proper documentation is possible in the United States. It takes time and lawyers though. The woman in the linked article did obtain everything she needed within two years. There’s no reason that the OP’s friend cannot get the paperwork. Now, about that article, I was homeschooled for 12years and never heard about this kind of stuff! Homeschoolers Anonymous definitely has an axe to grind and they’re definitely not fans of Homeschool Legal Defense. I don’t buy their pessimistic view of homeschooling. My folks reasoning behind homeschooling all five of my siblings wasn’t to control us. It was to give us the very best opportunity to succeed. Three of us have legitimate college degrees and I can honestly say I was far better prepared than any of my peers in college. I feel sorry for anyone who didn’t have a good experience; however, I would contend that withhold documents and identities has nothing to do with schooling. That’s just deranged abuse.

One does not normally hear about these kinds of things at “park days”. But they do exist. They also tend to be among Protestant circles…who “create” their own churches" and not Catholic ones.

The fact that it took her 2+ years is beyond acceptable. TWO YEARS. No ability to do anything…no real health care…nothing. It is easy to say “it’s just two years” when it’s not 2 years of your adult life.

If you don’t like them then look at the Coalition for Responsible Homeschooling. HSLDA is not without it’s sins.

In general, identity abuse requires either flowing amounts of money to pay for private schooling or homeschooling.

 

[TheLittleLady]

This is a practice that is on the fringe of the fringe of the fringe.

I have to wonder when the OP says that they do not have to pay property taxes, so, how does one do THAT? Squatters with guns?

 

[Jerusha]

Peripheral to the subject:

Public records documentation is a necessary evil. Look at children without adequate documentation who are later discovered to have been kidnapped from their natural parents.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Peripheral to the subject:

Public records documentation is a necessary evil. Look at children without adequate documentation who are alter discovered to have been kidnapped from their natural parents.

I’d say that would be a minuscule issue. Most kidnappings involve family members or someone with a right to the child (though they may have had that right taken away). But yes, identity abuse and denying documentation is a serious issue. It’s not one we should just gloss over.

But when you talk about the danger to children without documentation…yeah…it’s huge. They are discovering sex trafficking rings that prey upon children and young adults without documentation. (And yes, this is a growing problem in the US) Those who have been a part of extreme religious groups who’s parent’s flout the civil laws are at extreme risk. The abusers have little work to do—they are already conditioned to be obedient, conditioned to hate outsiders and now they have a new group of people who will “look out” for them.

 

[Cruciferi]

The fact that it took her 2+ years is beyond acceptable. TWO YEARS. No ability to do anything…no real health care…nothing. It is easy to say “it’s just two years” when it’s not 2 years of your adult life.

Thankfully it didn’t take longer. She did get her Birth Certificate within a year. So, realistically it was a pretty rapid pace. It’s government and paperwork after all…

HSLDA is not without it’s sins.

I can’t find their “sins”. People accuse them of unintentionally aiding evil child abusers. However, those accusations are unfounded and have been flying around since day one. They aren’t the police and everything thing that they’re advocating must go through our legal system. Speaking for myself, I consider being homeschooled a privilege. I thank God for it every day.

 

[AdherentToRome]

I knew that was the case, i was upset but certainly not at the priest or church. More at the circumstance. My priest married us following Mass the next day, thankfully he was flexible and understanding of the odd statelines issue. He also helped us explain to guests why we couldn’t do it on saturday. He was a great help.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

So, realistically it was a pretty rapid pace. It’s government and paperwork after all…

She’s “lucky” the government acted fast?

This is so many kinds of crazy that it’s bizarre.

No. She was not “lucky” any more than any abuse victim is “lucky”. Her parents denied her key documents and yet they are not behind bars for what they did. They suffered nothing.

Getting her birth certificate should have been as easy as running down to the courthouse and getting a copy. She was denied a fundamental right of an American for a year, and it took her OVER two years to get things straight. All while she was denied the liberties that were her birthright.

I can’t find their “sins”. People accuse them of unintentionally aiding evil child abusers. However, those accusations are unfounded and have been flying around since day one.

The “accusations” of protecting child abusers and aiding them are not unfounded.

They advocate for fewer restrictions on homeschooling which allow cases of abuse to happen. There is NOTHING wrong with ensuring students who are home are educated. Educational neglect via homeschooling is a huge problem. There’s always the line “well public school fails kids, too”…but pointing the finger back to the state is not a real issue.

They were against “unschooling” until very recently, and only now begrudgingly support it.
They have also manufactured crisis’ in many states by intentionally manipulating the way laws are written and then striking them down as a whole.
http://hsislegal.com/does_hslda_wor...ns_and_support_the_autonomy_of_homeschoolers/

They are VERY against homeschoolers using public school facilities for matters of schooling. They have encouraged laws to be written so that a child cannot attend an actual class at a school, but can do sports/music/art/after school programs. These schools were WILLING to let homeschoolers into their primary classrooms but HSLDA made laws so that homeschoolers had rights to “facilities” but no right to go to class!!!

They also have denied helping single women homeschool when it was against the non-custodial father’s wishes because of their view of patriarchy. It seems they recently did take a case of a mother VS a father but there are many complaints that they believe a father’s right is supreme.

Note, I am not saying everything they do is bad, but they have done bad things.

You might consider homeschooling a privilege, but it is one that is abused many times over. Again, look at the sight “Coalition for Responsible Homeschooling”. You may get some insight into just what is going on in the “homeschooling” world.

And understand this: I AM a homeschooler parent. I homeschooled my niece. I run a co-op. I follow the laws. And HSLDA is NOT on “my” side. My perogiave is that every child recieve the education they need. Homeschool should NEVER be an avenue for educational neglect, no matter how “bad” the schools are.