Catholics and marriage licenses

  • Thread starter Thread starter ByWhatAuthority
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
ByWhatAuthority said:
Marriage licenses have been around a long time. I think they became mandatory in the US in the 20s sometime. The problem I have with them is you can’t get married in the Catholic Church without one. That is s relatively new concept for the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
It’s not at all a new thing that Catholics (and Christians generally) are supposed to follow the civil law as much as they can morally do so. If a law is not immoral, we need to abide by it. I believe other people have given you several Bible citations for this.

Romans 13 says,

“13 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.”

None of this sovereign citizen stuff is really a moral option for a practicing Christian. After all, the Roman government of St. Paul’s time was far more brutal and oppressive than our own government, and yet St. Paul told people to submit to it.
 
Another issue is that pre-Trent, Catholic marriage used to be a lot more loosey-goosey. It was possible to be validly married with very few formalities–however that created a lot of abuses and problems. The post-Tridentine formalities make it a lot clearer who is married to whom and prevent a lot of abuses. Going along with current US civil requirements is very much in the spirit of Trent and is a very minor hurdle. (The double wedding system found elsewhere in the Catholic world sounds like a big headache, but I guess they’re used to it.)
 
Xantippe said:
Another issue is that pre-Trent, Catholic marriage used to be a lot more loosey-goosey. It was possible to be validly married with very few formalities–however that created a lot of abuses and problems. The post-Tridentine formalities make it a lot clearer who is married to whom and prevent a lot of abuses. Going along with current US civil requirements is very much in the spirit of Trent and is a very minor hurdle. (The double wedding system found elsewhere in the Catholic world sounds like a big headache, but I guess they’re used to it.)
Click to expand...
I think that’s true for much of pre-globalized, pre-literate society.

To make the claim that there was not a civil, secular element to marriage is just completely ignorant of how societies functioned before writing was available to the common man. The church never just married willy-nilly. The priest would want/need to know where the people came from. They knew who was who and what was what. They could verify ages and such amongst the town people. They did the “legwork” to make sure they were conducting a valid marriage.

Just because our systems are more formal today does not at all mean that there were no secular checks and balances.
 
Thank you Father for your replies. I have stayed away from this thread because I really feel that most of the comments that the op has posted has really been ridiculous. But I came back to see if you had posted something that might be more sensible.I don’t think you should risk being put in a jail cell either.
 
Last edited:
ByWhatAuthority is pointing back to the success of marriages before civil marriage licenses, so why do modern people need marriage licenses now? Here’s a problem I have with that. In the good old days, people who got married without a civil marriage were getting as married as they could get, given what was available to them. However, nowadays people who choose to “get married” without going for civil recognition of their union are not getting as married as they can.

That half-heartedness could, potentially, mean a lot of bad things about their level of commitment to each other.
 
Why does it bother you, what your friends choices are? Can’t they ask themselves ?

Or are you hoping for this style of marriage too?
 
The topic of this thread is a small, fringe group of people. What happens is a couple gives birth to their children at home, they never get a birth certificate for these children. Because these children have no birth records, they are not able to do anything you and I take for granted - get a passport, a driver’s license, fly on a commercial airplane, they cannot legally work in the US, they cannot have a bank account or buy property, if they buy a car they cannot register that car to get tags, they cannot get anything but absolute life saving medical treatment, they would have to use false documents to get the electric company to turn on the power, and they cannot get a marriage license.

In my reading, it is exclusively a fringe Protestant way of thinking, I’m honestly fascinated how someone can hold these ideals and be Catholic. I wonder if the OP would be willing to open up a bit more about how submission to the authority of the Church with this whole mindset.
 
Roseeurekacross said:
Why does it bother you, what your friends choices are? Can’t they ask themselves ?

Or are you hoping for this style of marriage too?
Click to expand...
This is the internet. Just like Dear Abby of yesteryear no one asks “for a friend”.
 
Or what happens if they are involved in a car accident and do not have insurance? Or if they are pulled over by the police for speeding and cannot show licence or registration? Or if they need serious medical treatment and cannot apply for assistance? Or when they retire and cannot draw on social security?

There are sooooo many situations and needs that we take for granted because we have documentation. It’s one thing (one unwise thing, but one thing none the less) to choose to do it for yourself, but to force that lifestyle upon your children? That’s unfair to say the least, especially when taking into account it’s hustle so you don’t have to pay taxes.
 
ByWhatAuthority said:
Marriage licenses have been around a long time. I think they became mandatory in the US in the 20s sometime. The problem I have with them is you can’t get married in the Catholic Church without one. That is s relatively new concept for the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
Just a guess on your part? Or do you have proof?
 
During my very cursory research on the subject just now, it apparently has varied from state to state (as many things in the US do) but Massachusetts has had it as a requirement since 1639, so I’d put money on it not being 300 years between then and the rest of the country (as it was added, piece by piece, until 1959) to go “oh wait, us too”.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Is there a reason not to get a license, other than as a tax dodge?
Click to expand...
That is exactly the question the bishop would ask IF the matter is presented to him and his permission is requested.

I can give a handful of hypothetical scenarios where a couple is unable to obtain a license.

As for what we read in this thread, “tax dodge” seems to be the best way to summarize it.
 
TheLittleLady said:
The topic of this thread is a small, fringe group of people. What happens is a couple gives birth to their children at home, they never get a birth certificate for these children. Because these children have no birth records, they are not able to do anything you and I take for granted - get a passport, a driver’s license, fly on a commercial airplane, they cannot legally work in the US, they cannot have a bank account or buy property, if they buy a car they cannot register that car to get tags, they cannot get anything but absolute life saving medical treatment, they would have to use false documents to get the electric company to turn on the power, and they cannot get a marriage license.

In my reading, it is exclusively a fringe Protestant way of thinking, I’m honestly fascinated how someone can hold these ideals and be Catholic. I wonder if the OP would be willing to open up a bit more about how submission to the authority of the Church with this whole mindset.
Click to expand...
Basically, it means making your own children live like illegal aliens/undocumented immigrants (choose term according your personal preferences). What loving parent could impose that life on their children?
 
ByWhatAuthority said:
Marriage licenses have been around a long time. I think they became mandatory in the US in the 20s sometime. The problem I have with them is you can’t get married in the Catholic Church without one. That is s relatively new concept for the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
It isn’t a new idea. Marriage licenses simply replaced the calling of the banns. The purpose of calling the banns was to ensure that no legal impediment existed for the marriage to take place; the marriage license served the same purpose, and so for the most past, the banns have been basically abolished now.

This is the problem with not understanding the history and purpose behind the tools you are criticizing.
 
casslean said:
It isn’t a new idea. Marriage licenses simply replaced the calling of the banns. The purpose of calling the banns was to ensure that no legal impediment existed for the marriage to take place; the marriage license served the same purpose, and so for the most past, the banns have been basically abolished now.

This is the problem with not understanding the history and purpose behind the tools you are criticizing.
Click to expand...
A quick survey of the provincial service websites shows that in Canada only Ontario still allows a couple the choice of a licence or banns published in the church.

That’s how the first SSM came to be celebrated. The couple belonged to Metropolitan Community Church of Toronto and their pastor published banns for three weeks and then celebrated their marriage. The city clerk refused to record it. The case went to court and eventually Ontario declared that defining marriage as between a man and a woman violated the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The rest is history.
 
Wow! This is NOT the Catholic Answers forums I remember. Looks like more than the format has changed. What in the world has happened to you people?

Let’s just answer her question about the church’s position and leave the legalities of her friend’s status to her friend.

I say her friend take a trip to Italy or some other beautiful, romantic place, and get married before a wonderful honeymoon. I know there are islands in the Caribbean that also cater to out of town weddings.
Afterwards, if the original wedding wasn’t catholic, have a convalidation

More power to them!
 
sunandstars said:
Wow! This is NOT the Catholic Answers forums I remember. Looks like more than the format has changed. What in the world has happened to you people?

Let’s just answer her question about the church’s position and leave the legalities of her friend’s status to her friend.

I say her friend take a trip to Italy or some other beautiful, romantic place, and get married before a wonderful honeymoon. I know there are islands in the Caribbean that also cater to out of town weddings.

Afterwards, if the original wedding wasn’t catholic, have a convalidation

More power to them!
Click to expand...
Yes, it has changed- for good. Wouldn´t you agree that as this is not a juristical discussion within a lawyer-only forum, it is not only exceptable that people discuss all the aspects of the situation, it is a sign of intererst and (catholic) help for many, instead of saying “yes” or “no”?
Beside, there was no clear yes or no question in the OP, It started with critical lament, and to this we need to react.
 
Last edited:
alice24 said:
I say her friend take a trip to Italy or some other beautiful, romantic place, and get married before a wonderful honeymoon. I know there are islands in the Caribbean that also cater to out of town weddings.
Click to expand...
Not to mention that how should they travel without papers by plain?!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top