Catholics and marriage licenses

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That actually is NOT a problem for them and that option is being weighed as a last resort as many of their family members would not be able to attend if it was out of country. As I said before, her legal status IS recognized by the state.
 
ByWhatAuthority said:
That actually is NOT a problem for them and that option is being weighed as a last resort as many of their family members would not be able to attend if it was out of country. As I said before, her legal status IS recognized by the state.
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You cant´t fly without a passport or other documents. Even as a european, I can´t fly to italy without documents.
 
Let me set the record straight a little bit, even though the topic of this conversation is not about this family’s legal status at all…

All of their children were born in a hospital.

The BC whether they have one or not is not relevant as their legal status is recognized. I think they all have birth RECORDS.

They drive, fly and yes, even work here. I don’t know about the bank account. They go to a regular doctor for all the normal reasons… You clearly do not know them and are making huge assumptions. You will not take me at my word that they are NOT doing anything illegal. Yes, they do things differently but they are not breaking any of the commandments. They are as I said before, Catholics in good standing. All my friend wants is to be married without the states permission. She has no problem with the legalization or state recognition of her marriage AFTER it takes place within the church.
 
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I think in countries that have redefined marriage to be something other than what a Catholic would consider as marriage then there is little reason to go through with a secular marriage.

Because the state now defines marriage in a non Catholic secular way, we need another form of words to express what we mean when we used to say ‘marriage’. I think I will be using the term Sacrament of Matrimony now to what I used to call marriage and secular marriage for what many states now call marriage.

Actually I think this is a great evangelising opportunity to distinguish the difference so as to then explain what is a sacrament and what are the joys of complimentary male and female coming together in a life long union to produce children. As long as this is done with no malice toward the secular redefinition of marriage then it can only be a great chance to evangelise.

God Bless.
 
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Thank you so much @abucs ! I agree 100%. I too will change my terminology and call Catholic marriage by its rightful name, Matrimony. A sacrament that we should NOT have to get permission from the state to receive.
 
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I suspect the issue is more that the intent of marrying without the legal recognition, in this country, is highly suspect.

I have heard few rational reasons to fear marriage that would stand up for a Catholic (especially as one with a significant fear of divorce ought not to be marrying).
 
Here in the UK we have priests who, along with their Church authority to marry, also have civil licence to do so. Other priests do not have (for one reason or another) the civil licence - and as was the case with my nuptial marriage/Mass, a civil registrar also attended/witnessed the marriage, and co-signed the marriage certificate along with one of the attendant priests.
 
ByWhatAuthority said:
All my friend wants is to be married without the states permission. She has no problem with the legalization or state recognition of her marriage AFTER it takes place within the church.
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Then she’s going to need to move to a jurisdiction where a civil license is not a requirement for a valid marriage.
 
poche

It is a requirement of Canon Law.
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Hello, could you explain this.

Are you saying that canon law requires the matrimony participants to go through a secular marriage?

If so, if participants later asked to rescind the state marriage are they in violation of canon law even if they keep true to their Catholic sacrament?
 
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poche said:
It is a requirement of Canon Law.
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It’s only a requirement of Canon Law where it is a requirement of civil law. If they move to Ontario, Canada, and become regularly attending members of a parish there, they can be married by publication of banns rather than with a government issued licence. Their marriage will be both a sacramental (if they are both baptized) and a legal one.

It would be up to them to find out if there is a state that allows that and then move there.

Going outside the country would likely not solve their problem. In most, if not all, countries where priests celebrate only religious marriages they are required to have proof of the civil marriage BEFORE they celebrate the religious marriage.
 
I’m sure your friend THINKS they are not breaking any laws. ALL the “Sovereign Citizen” folks say that. But they are. They absolutely are. Despite what their crazy interpretations of the law are, they are NOT able in any way shape or form to “withdraw” from the USA. IT’s all poppycock.

Either she has the required legal documentation to get a marriage license or she doesn’t. If she has a birth certificate, then she can. And should. No other country is going to marry her without such documentation anyway. I got married out of the country and I absolutely had to provide my birth certificate in order to do so. And get a marriage license.

There is ZERO legitimate reason for her to want to be married “spiritually but not legally”. Therefore, no clergy (Catholic or any other) will go along with it.

en.wikipedia.org

Sovereign citizen movement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Anarchists for Jesus. Really. ok don’t talk to me on this forum ever again. Thank you.
 
abucs said:
Anarchists for Jesus. Really. ok don’t talk to me on this forum ever again. Thank you.
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🤣

The church has always utilized civil authority. To declare otherwise is just ignorance of history.
 
Like burning heretics at the stake?

and please don’t insinuate ignorance by implicitly attributing something that is not there. There is no need to do that unless you want to get nasty. If you don’t want to go that way, then please refrain from such comments.
 
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ByWhatAuthority said:
Thank you so much @abucs ! I agree 100%. I too will change my terminology and call Catholic marriage by its rightful name, Matrimony. A sacrament that we should NOT have to get permission from the state to receive.
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We have to remember that
  1. not every marriage celebrated in the Catholic Church is a sacrament;
  2. many marriages celebrated in non-Catholic churches are also sacraments; and
  3. many marriages celebrated only by civil authorities are also sacraments.
Marriage existed as a legal entity long before the Catholic Church was founded.

Per canon 1116 there is a solution to the couple. Go on a 3 hour cruise with the Howells, the Professor and Mary Ann, get stranded on a deserted island and when it becomes clear that rescue won’t happen for more than 30 days declare their consent with their fellow castaways as witnesses.
 
Thanks, I have spent most of the last 4 years in the pacific islands and have a friend here who is the captain of a 55 meter yatch so that is not so farfetched for me. I might look into what you’ve said.

Going off to Netflix now to look up Gilligan’s Island. 😃
 
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You’re welcome ByWhatAuthority.

I am sure there are many who think the same way. Perhaps it might be worth talking to a sympathetic priest and going through the possibilities. God Bless.
 
Christian anarchy was already a thing well before it was mentioned in this thread. It has a very long, storied history.

Christian anarchism - Wikiwand articles

Christian anarchism is a Christian movement in political theology that claims anarchism is inherent in Christianity and the Gospels. It is grounded in the belie...
www.wikiwand.com
 
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