Catholics and Muslims

[Marybeloved]

I’m not even sure why that is in the CCC. Especially when in other places it makes protestants look like second class citizens. And the CCC is not considered infallible. It is updated and changed from time to time.

Not true, my friend. The CCC is the authoritative teaching of the entire Catholic magisterium (All Bishops)- It most definitely is binding and one is not just free to disbelieve what it teaches on matters of Faith and morals.

However, there’s a whole lot of confusion about what the catechism actually teaches about Islam because people tend to pick snipets of it out of context (like some protestants do with the Bible) rather than simply reading all of it together as one teaching. I tried to discuss the relevant parts of the CCC including this 841 and others that clearly reject the validity of the Islamic religion on this thread some months ago titled: Accepting interpretation of Islam according to the CCC: (Please see the posts on page 2- they make things much clearer) forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=617614.

My own explanations offered there on this matter are here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8593340#post8593340
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8593439#post8593439
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8593478#post8593478
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8593514#post8593514

In any case, NO Catholic is bound to accept Islam or Mohamed or the Quran as valid- none! No such demand is made (nor such claims taught as true/valid) by the Catholic Church or the CCC. Be weary of people who like to pick snipets of the Church teaching out of context (typically some liberals) to make the Church say what she simply has not said.

 

[Pitcharan]

…In any case, NO Catholic is bound to accept Islam or Mohamed or the Quran as valid- none! No such demand is made (nor such claims taught as true/valid) by the Catholic Church or the CCC. Be weary of people who like to pick snipets of the Church teaching out of context (typically some liberals) to make the Church say what she simply has not said.

NO Catholic is expected to condemn Islam or Mohamed or the Quran as invalid- none! No such condemnation was ever made by the Catholic Church or the CCC. Be wary of people who like to pick holes in other religions especially Islam and then claim that it is their sacred duty to do so.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Theology of Evil

The Law must devour everything, such is the theology of punishment, hatred and revenge. He who lives by such a dogma must rejoice in punishment. He may, indeed successfully evade punishment himself by “playing ball” with the Law and Law givers. But he must take good care not to avoid the sufferings of others. He must occupy his mind with with their present and future punishment.

The Law must triumph, There must be No-Mercy! This is the chiefmark of the theology of hell. there is everything BUT Mercy! Those who listen and believe this sort of idea and whom absorb it, and enjoy it, develope a notion of a spiritual life which is a hypnosis of evil.

The concepts of sin, suffering, damnation, punishment and the justice of God, retribution, the end of all other world religion and society and so on, are things which they smack their lips with unspeakable pleasure. Perhaps this is because they derive a deep, subconscious comfort from the thought that many other people will fall into hell which they themselves are trying to escape. And how do they know they are going to escape their destiny of hell?

They cannot give any definate reason except for the fact that they feel a certain sense relief at the thought that all this punishment is prepared for everyone but themselves. This constitutes the conviction of their faith, that they are “saved”!!

Faith in this theology is really not acceptence of God who reveals Himself as Mercy. It is a kind of psychological, subjective warfare which applies a violent force to reality in order to change it according to its own whims. A faith of willpower generated by conviction. By this astounding dynamic force of faith, God is turned into a means to your own end.

All national and international enemies will lay down their arms at their feet because they have faith. This kind of faith does not do anything to change reality. It does not reduce anxiety or conflict, it leaves these souls a prey to uncertainty. It does not lift responsibility
off their shoulders. It can never convince one that their God is satisfied, nor can they be satisfied with themselves, and they are now ready for Totalitarian Mass Movement!!

Happy they are with war and the persecution of all their inferior enemies, or generally speaking, actively punishing anyone who is different from them.

The last characteristic is distinctions between good and evil, right and wrong. No longer can they take upon their shoulders the burden of forgiveness, acceptance, understanding or love, thus help one another find truth. On the contrary the important aspect is to be absolutely right and to prove everyone else is absolutely wrong. There can be no peace and unity among men because their belief is absolute and only attracts those with the same absolute belief. Thus to prove they are right they must punish and eliminate all those they absolutely believe are wrong and would refuse their submission.

In one sentence pure and simple…It is in this theology of evil that the Devil is God.

Fr. Thomas Merton

Peace

 

[Pitcharan]

The Theology of Evil
… the end of all other world religion and society and so on, are things which they smack their lips with unspeakable pleasure. Perhaps this is because they derive a deep, subconscious comfort from the thought that many other people will fall into hell which they themselves are trying to escape. And how do they know they are going to escape their destiny of hell?

They cannot give any definate reason except for the fact that they feel a certain sense relief at the thought that all this punishment is prepared for everyone but themselves. This constitutes the conviction of their faith, that they are “saved”!!
…
In one sentence pure and simple…It is in this theology of evil that the Devil is God.

Fr. Thomas Merton

This is the most precise hit, exactly on the nail’s head

 

[GaryTaylor]

This is the most precise hit, exactly on the nail’s head

Yes its that strident movement which we just can’t seem to rise above. I suppose it goes all the way back to Cain and continues till today as we see. Very unfortunate for those subjected to this in these radical areas. I see even Iran has a silent movement out now which has bloggers desperately trying to get their message out. Disturbing really.

Peace

 

[CatholicSheila]

When I was first studying Catholicism, about 8 to 10 years ago, I was torn between Islam and Christianity. I admired the Muslim simplicity in faith, belief and adherence to the tenets of their faith and their lack of human respect (That is, not caring so much what people thought of them, but rather what God, per their understanding, thought of them). But ONE thing kept me ABSOLUTELY from being able to become a Muslim- One thing alone. I knew that I would have to accept (believe) that Christ was nothing more than a Prophet .

Worldly and even pagan as I was (unbaptized and still searching for truth), That was something that I simply could not do. Deny Christ? As not being God himself? Never! Even then, I knew enough to know that Christ was no ordinary/regular/great Prophet, no mere Saint. He was God. I thank God that he allowed me to know that.

No amount of beauty, goodness or other wonderful characteristics in other faiths come anywhere near Jesus Christ. If Christianity consisted of nothing but him alone, and consisted of nothing else, not the beautiful liturgies, sacraments, prayers, devotions, traditions, sacred Art,mysticism, martyrs and saints etc, but Jesus Christ Alone, it would STILL be the only option- The ONLY ONE!

Well said. I too have considered Islam and there is much about the religion that I admire, but I can not, will not, deny Christ.

 

[Mickey]

NO Catholic is expected to condemn Islam or Mohamed or the Quran as invalid- none!

“There is also the people-deceiving cult (threskeia) of the Ishmaelites, the forerunner of the Antichrist, which prevails until now.”
St John of Damascus

 

[CatholicSheila]

Ah…so you are entering your new false religion under false pretenses. It all makes sense now. And what do you think will happen when they realize you’ve committed a great sin in the eyes of all merciful allah? I hope you don’t loose your head over this.

Actually gender reassignment isn’t a sin in Islam. Most reassignments happen in Iran than any other country.

 

[Marybeloved]

NO Catholic is expected to condemn Islam or Mohamed or the Quran as invalid- none! No such condemnation was ever made by the Catholic Church or the CCC. Be wary of people who like to pick holes in other religions especially Islam and then claim that it is their sacred duty to do so.

*The words of The Prince of Theologians, St. Thomas Aquinas

"He (Mohammed) seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh urges us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected; he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity.

He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the Contrary, Mohammed said that he was sent in the power of his arms - which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning (1). Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Mohammed forced others to become his follower’s by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimony of the Old and the New Testaments by making them into a fabrication of his own, as can be seen by anyone who examines his law.** It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity**. It is thus clear that those who place faith in his words believe foolishly." *Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 1, Chapter 16, Art. 4. Footnote: 1. Sura 21:5, Sura 44:14; Sura 16:103, Sura 37:36

 

[DennisTate]

[20] The wrath of the Lord shall not return till he execute it, and till he accomplish the thought of his heart: in the latter days you shall understand his counsel.

drbo.org/chapter/28023.htm

The fact that so many people who have a brush with death are being revived will, in my opinion soon cause an astonishing reconciliation between Muslims and Christians.

Mary A Buris:
"February 6, 2009

While spending time with the Lord He reminded me of Ali’s funeral (Ali was my first husband who was murdered in 94/95) and how the Holy Spirit had me praying in tongues and in travail for the muslim people’s salvation in Christ Jesus.

He assured me that He heard my prayer that day. Suddenly I became very excited in my spirit and asked the Holy Spirit

“What’s going on?”

This is what He said:

You’ll see… It’ll be explosive when it happens. They will flock towards salvation as the hardness is lifted off of their hearts and the scales are removed from their eyes. They are a passionate people but their purpose has not yet been served. Upon the fulfillment of their role in the history of mankind there will be a flood of souls pouring into the kingdom of God for His glory. They have been scorned, they have been accused, but the ones who are pure in heart shall see God. When He reveals Himself to them in all His glory they will prostrate themselves before Him in a way they have never done before. When He opens the eyes of their understanding and unstops their ears to hear what His Holy Spirit is revealing the waves of tears of repentance will flood the ground they occupy and they will be purged once and for all time of the stains of their unbelief. The Lord is calling out for a pure and holy nation before God and He will do as He chooses and choose as He pleases and mankind will truly stand in awe of His mighty Majesty and Splendor as the precious souls are ushered into His kingdom.

GIVE HIM PRAISE AND GLORY! (Mary Burris, from the group Power Packed Prayers).

 

[DennisTate]

Here is a webpage that does an impressive job of showing that the Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) may have had one of those near death experience or out of the body experiences like the Apostle Paul referred to in II Corinthians 12:1-4.

near-death.com/muslim.html

 

[septimine]

I cannot understand why people in general seem toi have a problem with Muslims.

I don’t have a problem with Muslims, I have a problem with Islam. It’s a false doctrine, it seems to be promoting a lot of the violence we see in the world – including the execution of “apostates” from Islam, or the attempt to intimidate critics of Muhammad into silence. Muslims are generally not bad people, they’ve just been fooled by Lucifer into a lie.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Here is a webpage that does an impressive job of showing that the Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) may have had one of those near death experience or out of the body experiences like the Apostle Paul referred to in II Corinthians 12:1-4.

near-death.com/muslim.html

How one has a Near Death Experience, in essense is saved by Gods Mercy, and then what, goes on a killing spree with a total lack of compassion, love and respect for the sanctity of life? Contradiction of itself IMHO.

 

[christosdavid]

Actually I went to bed so I could be up for fajr prayers at 5am. You know, the whole praying 5 times a day thing? I get up at dawn to pray to God.

 I was a Christian and I can say with a decent amount of certainty that I will not return to any church. I have too many doubts about the Christian faith.

You seem to ignore the positive elements of the Qur’an, including Surah Al-Kafiruun:

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

1. Say: "0 you disbelievers!
2. I worship not that which you worship.
3. Nor will you worship that which I worship.
4. And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
5. Nor will you worship that which I worship.
6. To you be your religion, and to me my religion.

Context is everything. I could cite a thousand examples of the Bible’s wholesale slaughter of innocent women, children and men. And no, you can’t say 'that’s the Old Testament because that was the very Scripture Jesus Himself was supposed to fufill, and indeed believed in.

And Islam has strict rules on warfare and fighting. One of these conditions is that it must be done in defence of Islaam only, and not for selfish means. The Qur’an also strictly forbids any combatant from killing or even engaging anyone who isn’t a trained soldier (i.e. someone who actually WANTS to fight), including women, the elderly and children.

** Also, what Osama Bin Laden did killed Muslims as well as non-Muslims**.

I have none of my books of tafsir, notes or even a Qur’an to hand, and so I cannot comment on individual hadith without further research, which given I’m currently 100 or so miles away from home, is going to be difficult. When I return home, I will be sure to respond.

Insha’Allah one day I will have memorized the Qur’an.

Given I’m a trained Classicist who can read both Hebrew and Greek, I have read the entire Bible cover to cover in the original languages and in translation. The more I read, the more it seems to confirm my rejection of it.

there are many muslims who blow up mosques… as well as “Christian” economic or military sites and dont forget, buses…

btw… what about your hebrew and greek has led you to reject the Scriptures?

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t have a problem with Muslims, I have a problem with Islam. It’s a false doctrine, it seems to be promoting a lot of the violence we see in the world – including the execution of “apostates” from Islam, or the attempt to intimidate critics of Muhammad into silence. Muslims are generally not bad people, they’ve just been fooled by Lucifer into a lie.

 

[christosdavid]

I consider myself male even though I am biologically female, as I am transgendered.

I think we’ve discovered your real reason for leaving the church…

 

[Eric_Hyom]

If we are searching for truth, then I feel we should worry more about worshipping false gods, rather than false religions. We go through life buying houses, cars, trinkets to adorn the house and body, we spend more time worshipping the money god, money can become more important to us than our God the creator. The gods of lust, pride, jealousy, anger, hate consume our time and thoughts; they take us away from worshipping our Lord and Saviour.

To worship the One True God leads us to love, compassion, tolerance, mercy and forgiveness.

Blessings and peace with justice for all God’s people.

Eric

 

[Pitcharan]

…To worship the One True God leads us to love, compassion, tolerance, mercy and forgiveness.
…

ditto

 

[GaryTaylor]

If we are searching for truth, then I feel we should worry more about worshipping false gods, rather than false religions. We go through life buying houses, cars, trinkets to adorn the house and body, we spend more time worshipping the money god, money can become more important to us than our God the creator. The gods of lust, pride, jealousy, anger, hate consume our time and thoughts; they take us away from worshipping our Lord and Saviour.

To worship the One True God leads us to love, compassion, tolerance, mercy and forgiveness.

Blessings and peace with justice for all God’s people.

Eric

If the gods of lust, pride, jealousy, anger and hate cosume your thoughts I would re-evaluate your lifestyle. There is no “we” in that equation which can be assigned to others without knowing them.

The Truth resolves at Jesus Christ, whom is the Sovereign Truth. There reside’s the answer of the equation which leads…to Love, Compassion, Tolerance, Mercy, and Forgiveness. There was NO civil society until Jesus Christ. He brings that to the table.

Does book worship become included in your above sentence? Is God a book which permits riot and murder?

Humm, countries will abort children by the million’s, not blink of an eye. But a confiscated book which became contraband gets burned, thus requires an act of congess and twenty to apologize, riots, 5-murders, and who knows how many injured. Not feeling the Love, Compassion, Tolerance, Mercy and Forgiveness.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

GaryTaylor;
If the gods of lust, pride, jealousy, anger and hate cosume your thoughts I would re-evaluate your lifestyle. There is no “we” in that equation which can be assigned to others without knowing them.

I was only referring to the sinners amongst us, and the sins that separate us from God.

Blessings

Eric