Catholics and Non-Catholics: Do you believe in the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mother?

[Dokimas]

Are you of the opinion Mary was an idiot?

Do you make it a habit of asking foolish questions?

 

[adrift]

adrift, if you continue to make slanderous accusations I will report you.
My earlier quote in post #577 was pulled from this page and was pasted without modification:
Perpetual virginity of Mary

My dear I think you mean libel. Since what I wrote was true. I am not guilty of either one.
You stated

Until’ used in its full contemporary English sense signifies that Joseph and Mary’s chaste relationship changed after the birth.

This was pulled from the article and changed. You pulled it from this

If on the contrary it were meant in its full contemporary English sense—that is, if it really meant that Joseph and Mary’s chaste relationship changed after the birth—then the stylistics present another big problem: the reader would have to believe that Matthew was actually inviting contemplation of the couple’s later sexual activity.

The words in red is what you left out. You also added the word signified. I think that is dishonest.

You left out

Debate on this point is sometimes obscured by the fact that the Greek preposition ἕως could either occur with a clausal complement in its temporal sense or with a nominal complement in a spatial sense, where it meant something like up to.[61] John Hainsworth remarks: “'The use of ‘until’ in Matthew 1:25, then, is purely to indicate that Christ was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, not conceived by Joseph and Mary, since they did not ‘know’ each other ‘until’ the birth. In this context ‘until’ is really synonymous with ‘before’. If on the contrary it were meant in its full contemporary English sense—that is, if it really meant that Joseph and Mary’s chaste relationship changed after the birth—then the stylistics present another big problem: the reader would have to believe that Matthew was actually inviting contemplation of the couple’s later sexual activity. This is doubtful to say the least.”[62] Although in the English translation the phrase with “until” is ambiguous, it is less so in the original Greek text.[63]

I would also point out that overall the article is poorly written in that they mention Tasker, Hill and Hainsworth without establishing who they are. What you omitted was a modification. That you did not provide a link is also suspicious. All I can say is that I am very disappointed in you. I guess that it is just a sign of your desperation.

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas the dictionary uses examples to demonstrate their definitions. The definition does not state that there is a change afterward. No matter what example you use it does not change the standard definition. What you are doing is inventing a definition that is not the standard one. Context means nothing if you do not understand the standard meaning. You may not apply your understanding of a word and expect others to accept it. The translators of the bible did not intend to indicate anything after Jesus was born but only what occurred before Jesus was born.
By defining the word, you come to understand that it only means before Jesus was born nothing after.
You will not find any dictionary that will define it any other way because that is what it means. Even your definition states that it only concerns a period of time up to an event.

Definition of UNTIL
: up to the time that : up to such time as

Examples of UNTIL
We played until it got dark. We** played up to such time as it got dark** Then we kept playing until the ball hit me and I got a bad head ache.

Keep going until I tell you to stop. Keep going up to such time as I tell you to stop Then keep going and walk into the wall.

I ran until I was breathless. I ran up to such time as I was breathless Then in spite of passing out, I kept running.

Stay here until the danger has passed. Stay here up to such time as the danger had passed. And I’m still here cuz I’m afraid.

Stir the dough until it forms a ball." Stir the dough up to such time as it forms a ball. And I’m still stiring.

and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS. and knew her not up to such time as she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

 

[adrift]

[SIGN]Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd520
Here are three translations, two which use the term virgin

NAS : Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”
NIV : How will this be," Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
KJV : Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Now please apologize for your rash accusation

Here is the Greek word used
Quote:
1097 ginosko {ghin-oce’-ko} a prolonged form of a primary verb; TDNT - 1:689,119; v 1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel 1a) to become known 2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of 2a) to understand 2b) to know 3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman 4) to become acquainted with, to know For Synonyms see entry 5825 [/SIGN]

Please spell out for me your point that you think contradicts Todd.

Where did you get the idea that it contradicts Todd?

 

[hosemonkey]

All I can say is that I am very disappointed in you. I guess that it is just a sign of your desperation.

My question is: Why are we bandying words with those who have rejected the True Faith and have embraced a false, man-made religion. Why are we debating one who is apostate and has rejected true Religion in favor of false mormonism. All the more reprehensible because having once accepted the True Faith, has deliberately rejected it. The ultimate fate of those who do this is quite clear, that unrepented, this sin will warrant Hell. Harsh? No, just the Truth.

 

[Dokimas]

A virgin is one who has never had intercourse.
BUT - that is not why Mary was puzzled. She KNEW she WAS a virgin - to that point.

What cause her confusion was that she was GOING to become pregnant - and she had no intention of having sex.

So using the term ‘virgin’ in the verse of question meets the definition of the Greek word(s) used.

Could you show documentation showing Mary’s confusion was as you think it was?

 

[Dokimas]

Where did you get the idea that it contradicts Todd?

I don’t think there’s a contradiction so I guess I’m confused why you responded to Todd in that manner. Were you supporting what Todd was saying that cause you to respond so?

 

[adrift]

Definition of UNTIL
: up to the time that : up to such time as

Examples of UNTIL
We played until it got dark. We** played up to such time as it got dark** Then we kept playing until the ball hit me and I got a bad head ache. Then we played some more

Keep going until I tell you to stop. Keep going up to such time as I tell you to stop Then keep going and walk into the wall. Then turn left.

I ran until I was breathless. I ran up to such time as I was breathless Then in spite of passing out, I kept running. then I drank some water.

Stay here until the danger has passed. Stay here up to such time as the danger had passed. And I’m still here cuz I’m afraid. :dancing: then I went home.

Stir the dough until it forms a ball." Stir the dough up to such time as it forms a ball. And I’m still stiring. Then stir in the rest of ingredient.

and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS. and knew her not up to such time as she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

But the definition does not say what happens after all sorts of thing could happen as we have demonstrated. You can give all the examples but it does not change the meaning of until. Dokimas just give me a legitimate source that substantiates your definition.

 

[Dokimas]

But the definition does not say what happens after all sorts of thing could happen as we have demonstrated. You can give all the examples but it does not change the meaning of until. Dokimas just give me a legitimate source that substantiates your definition.

Sure, all kinds of things could have happened but in those example, it’s silly to think a change did NOT happen. That’s precisely our point. The only thing that can change for a husband and wife who ‘knew not each other’ until her 1st born came into this world is to have sex.

BTW, thanks for making our point.

 

[Todd520]

This was pulled from the article and changed. You pulled it from this

You are too funny, so your compalints are:

1. I pulled part of a sentence from a wiki on contemporay usage of until, trimmed the sentence and then did not cite it for authority?

I still stand by what it says, I did not mis-represent or mislead.
AND You are desperate

1. On the quote I did take word for word and put in quote brackets, I never indicated it was the whole wiki article, did I??? Obviously I took an excerpt that made the point i wanted conveyed.

 

[adrift]

I don’t think there’s a contradiction so I guess I’m confused why you responded to Todd in that manner. Were you supporting what Todd was saying that cause you to respond so?

What I was doing is showing the Greek word that was translated and what that Greek word meant.

1097 ginosko {ghin-oce’-ko} a prolonged form of a primary verb; TDNT - 1:689,119; v 1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel 1a) to become known 2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of 2a) to understand 2b) to know 3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman 4) to become acquainted with, to know For Synonyms se

Seeing what it means it is hard to understand the translation of being a virgin. It really makes her question even stranger.

 

[Dokimas]

What I was doing is showing the Greek word that was translated and what that Greek word meant.

Seeing what it means it is hard to understand the translation of being a virgin. It really makes her question even stranger.

Thanks for you response.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[adrift]

You are too funny, so your compalints are:

1. I pulled part of a sentence from a wiki on contemporay usage of until, trimmed the sentence and then did not cite it for authority?

I still stand by what it says, I did not mis-represent or mislead.
AND You are desperate

1. On the quote I did take word for word and put in quote brackets, I never indicated it was the whole wiki article, did I??? Obviously I took an excerpt that made the point i wanted conveyed.

You more than just trimmed it. It was changed to mean something totally different. It was deceitful. It made the quoted sentence mean the exact opposite of what it stated. That means you manufactured a quote that supported you when it truth it did not. If you wish to report me go ahead. `

 

[Todd520]

What I was doing is showing the Greek word that was translated and what that Greek word meant.

Seeing what it means it is hard to understand the translation of being a virgin. It really makes her question even stranger.

adrift,
you are highlighting contemporary bible translations that may have done a poor job in retaining the original Greek meaning.
That is very different than my making the translations false or misleading - it is inherent in the bad translations

In the future, please be clear in your complaint.

 

[adrift]

Thanks for you response.

Thanks for your opinion.

Your welcome.

 

[Todd520]

You more than just trimmed it. It was changed to mean something totally different. It was deceitful. It made the quoted sentence mean the exact opposite of what it stated. That means you manufactured a quote that supported you when it truth it did not. If you wish to report me go ahead. `

NO no no,
I only had one quote, which was cut and pasted from the wiki, with a quote box.

Your other objection was not a quote, and you are welcome to disagree or agree with it.

 

[adrift]

adrift,
you are highlighting contemporary bible translations that may have done a poor job in retaining the original Greek meaning.
That is very different than my making the translations false or misleading - it is inherent in the bad translations

In the future, please be clear in your complaint.

It is the translations you presented. In this particular case I was not accusing you of being false or misleading. In the future, be careful of your accusations.

 

[adrift]

NO no no,
I only had one quote, which was cut and pasted from the wiki, with a quote box.

Your other objection was not a quote, and you are welcome to disagree or agree with it.

It seemed to me that what you say was not a quote was something you lifted from the article. In fact it was how I found the article by using it in the search engine. I am not sure but it seems when I first read your post it was the only thing that was in it. I didn’t see the quote box until later.

You know I was accused earlier of lifting a quote out of context. I didn’t think I did. I thought I had retained the flavor and there was a link.

How you cut the article and took it out of the context changed the meaning. You can do that but it does cause you to loose credibility. Providing a link helps to keep that credibility.

I didn’t mean to offend you but I am being honest with you when I say I thought you were being deceitful. Now maybe you didn’t mean to and maybe I am incorrect that you were (wouldn’t be the first nor last time.) so I will just apologize if that is not what you meant to do.

 

[Todd520]

Quoting myself so people can see ‘my deception’ as called by adrift

• the Tasker quote is pulled from the wiki without modification (obviously not the full article though)
• the bold statement is not cited as an official definition, but is in perfect allignement with what I have sated in this forum, it represents my belief on the subject.

Where is my deception adrift??

If the translators want the scripture to mean something like “up to” they should have used
“up to” it or “before”.
from wiki

Tasker[57] and Hill[58] argue that this passage implies that Mary and Joseph had customary marital relations after the birth of Jesus, with Tasker quoting McNeile as saying that the Greek construction “always implies in the New Testament that the negatived action did, or will, take place after the point of time indicated”.[59] Hill comments that “if the notion of Mary’s perpetual virginity had been familiar to the evangelist or to the milieu in which he wrote, he would surely have been more explicit”.

 

[Stephen168]

Luke 1:31-35:

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Because Gabriel didn’t tell her that she WAS

pregnant. He told her that she was going to be pregnant.

Mary wasn**'t an idiot who didn’t understand that she could BECOME** pregnant after sleeping with Joseph. This is clear evidence that she had no intention of having sex.
Dokimas;7065408:

Thanks for your opinion.

Are you of the opinion Mary was an idiot?

Do you make it a habit of asking foolish questions?

No, I was actually expecting an answer.

Elvisman made two statements: The first repeated what was described in Luke 1:31-35. The second said the Mary was not an idiot.

You said they were his opinion. His first statement was clearly correct so I was wondering if you were saying his second statement was his opinion. And did you agree or disagree with his second statement.

Which statement(s) do you think is his opinion, do you agree or disagree, and why?

Is your native language English?