Catholics and Non-Catholics: Do you believe in the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mother?

[GaryTaylor]

I understand that Mary’s response of “knowing no man” is indicative of something .The pregnancy was in the future ,and what could be more normal in a marriage .I just am not sure it is “clear” that she made a vow of celibacy . She was betrothed, a bit like engaged today. However, back then it was more.They were legally married, papers signed ,dowry paid etc.etc… The only thing yet to be done was the wedding ceremony and consumation.This could be done at any time. I believe (not totally sure) they could have had sex ,and it would not have been fornication , for they were married (just no ceremony yet). So Mary was married , and was waiting for her ceremony, which Joseph could plan at any time. .She was in waiting and possibly asking herself , “when Joseph when ?”. A bit like today being engaged ,but with no wedding date, and time passes and passes.This could have been the reason for Mary’s response. She could not say "but I am not married yet ",because she was. She could have meant it was not consumated ,and "I have no idea when Joseph will come for me .It may have even been a plea to the angel ,a hinting , that “I am willing but you got to get Joseph in on the program , cause he is procrastinating and who knows when he will want to consumate”. A bit like today , Mary would tell the angel,"Sure ,I’ll have a child ,but I gotta get married first ( we have been chaste during our engagement). Again, Mary was married -betrothed ,so all she could say is I have not consumated ,or had the ceremony or have not known Joesph . I believe this is just as plausible a scenario as her vow of chastity . Both views have to be extrapolated from scripture .Thank-you for listening to my view .Yours is very plausible and coherent also. One thing we both can agree on , this is a perfect scripture to show her virginity , beyond a shadow of a doubt .If she had said , I am not consumated yet or had my “wedding ceremony” yet some could say maybe she had pre-betrothel sex etc. .This makes it very clear .She had sex with no man ,not even her husband.

Wow, you getting this Dave, keep you mind open. Yes this was a Holy Family. Though all was done like a marrige today with being engaged and married. They both knew a few things previous. 1] That Mary was going to be the God Bearer, she was specifically chosen by God. The Bible doesn’t go inot great detail about how God reached this conclusion. It just tells us Mary was Full of Grace, she Found Favor with God etc. Then we have the angel speaking to St Joseph and you get the feeling that he’s not totally convienced he should take on this responsibility. Marys much younger than him for one, and this means that he very well will be consecrated to God in Chasity for his entire life.

This is what utlimatly happens. The Annunciation, 1:28-30, The Visitation , Luke 1:41-42, The Nativity, Luke 2:7, The Presentation Luke 2:22, and finally The Finding of Jesus in the Temple, Luke 2:46…Now we have the Holy Family not just in reality but in Spirit. By the time we reach this point its understood that this really, really is the Messiah. That there’s a great responsibility placed on Mary and Joseph by God. By this point all are now united and dedicated together in unwavering plight of Christ.

If you read the story of Pilot and the Crucifixtion in the Bible and in the Apocrypha[deleated book of the Bible] What you’ll come to see is the human side of Christ. Even in the end . the last moments on the Cross, he wasn’t positive GOD was going to save him. You’ll see that this was a seriously great role model. He chose’s the Cricifixtion because its the worst Rome has to offfer. He tells Pilot, this is what I was Born for. He doesn’t waver at all here. Yet in those last moments on the Cross we see a human side of fear and a moment of uncertainty.

My point is, this suffering, this humility, and uncertainty they all confronted at one point or another. We all do…Mary first inspired Christ, God isnpired Mary who was already dedicated to her belief and purpose in life, which is why she was chosen. God seen the solid dedication and humility of Mary. We see St Josephs uncertainty before the unity.

This is what women of this early period strived to do and many men. This was once, and still is the path to God. We’ve lost our way in this age. We are losing generation after generation. You know this are the worst and best of times. The worst because evil and sin is so prevalent. The Best because its been foretold that there will be more Saints form this time than any other. Many “are” going to stand for Christ in this period. Mary tells us my Immaculate Heart in the end will prevail. So really shes telling us, you can get with this now or get with later. But you are gonna get with this.

Pray the Rosary, Mary will walk you by the hand out of the dark and to God. Her personality will become a part of yours. You’ll lose “self” and once you lose self you’ll understand faith very clearly

“Never will anyone who says the Rosary everyday be led astry, this is a statement that I would gladly sign in my blood” St Louis de Montfort

 

[elvisman]

Thank-you I understand not time was given for the pregnancy , but i would not consider it a major flaw , for she did not know when Joseph would come for her either. You are assuming it would be soon…Would it not have been nice for Mary to state your position ,like, “How can this be for I have taken a vow of chastity ?” If this were the case, it was serious business. She would need special permission to break the vow , a vow before God .I think she would have addressed it head-on with the angel .There is no dispensation given by God ,from the Angel.Again, we both have good scenarios,but filled with extrapolating.

**When Joseph would come for her?
What exactly do you mean by that?

 

[dianaiad]

**When Joseph would *come ***for her?
**What exactly **do you mean by that?

About the only thing all of us on this thread absolutely agree on is this: Mary was not ‘with’ Joseph. They were ‘betrothed’, in the first part of the Jewish marraige. She was living with her parents. Joseph was living elsewhere. This situation was very common. The marriage would be completed when Joseph came for her and took her to his home.

 

[elvisman]

About the only thing all of us on this thread absolutely agree on is this: Mary was not ‘with’ Joseph. They were ‘betrothed’, in the first part of the Jewish marraige. She was living with her parents. Joseph was living elsewhere. This situation was very common. The marriage would be completed when Joseph came for her and took her to his home.

Ahh . . . just wanted to clarify.

Mary was betrothed to Joseph, which is the first part of Jewish marriage. Why, then, would she expect an extremely long period of time before he came for her?

When the angel told her that she was to conceive a child, her confused question to him would have neen a pretty bizarre response had she intended to have marital relations with Joseph.

 

[KathleenGee]

For me, it means that the Jewish community knew Mary and her depth of faith, and Joseph was chosen…again the spirit and character of mission…to bethrothed to her. And so he literally did not know her until that time.

He was a just and merciful man and protected her from being stoned to death. How did he find out she was pregnant? He did not look at her as someone he chose to marry. He looked at her as part of a particular arrangement or contract, some detachment on his part.

It does not imply sexual relations. I am believing the Jewish custom of having chaste men guard the temple virgins…

I have not read anything yet to know the location of where the Jewish virgins lived…

Again, to bear forth the savior of the world is a truly unique position for either Joseph as well as Mary…

And for the last apostle…St. John…and the Mormon understanding there was no true faith being taught after St. John, the apostles by then had already set up bishops and deacons as their successors in various parts of the world.

 

[dianaiad]

Ahh . . . just wanted to clarify.

Mary was betrothed to Joseph, which is the first part of Jewish marriage. Why, then, would she expect an extremely long period of time before he came for her?

Probably because it generally took a long time. Couples who were betrothed after the woman reached puberty could live that way for a year or two–sometimes longer. The man had to get, and provide, a home first. Girls betrothed before puberty waited even longer than that.

When the angel told her that she was to conceive a child, her confused question to him would have neen a pretty bizarre response had she intended to have marital relations with Joseph.

…or it could have been the natural response of a girl overwhelmed by a visit from an angel. The thing is, we ARE talking about the reactions of a 13/14 year old, no matter how special. I don’t think she was thinking about posterity at the time.

Come to think of it, we don’t really know the exact words she actually used, do we? Nobody witnessed this except the angel and Mary. Who DID write that script?

 

[Catholic20064]

Come to think of it, we don’t really know the exact words she actually used, do we? Nobody witnessed this except the angel and Mary. Who DID write that script?

Traditional Christianity would claim that Matthew wrote that script under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Questioning the inspiration of the Bible is truly a slippery slope that leaves you with nothing and would ultimately lead to the rejection of Christianity altogether. Do you really want to go there? It’s the place where many Mormons have gone before and ended up atheists – I see it over at Recovery from Mormonism all the time.

 

[brumano]

Again, Catholicism has great value for the practice of celibacy and virginity.

St. John the Baptist was celibate. St. John the Evangelist was celibate and considered closest to Jesus…the Apostle Jesus loved…albeit in John’s words. st. Joseph could very well had been arranged as her guardian as was the local custom in Judaism at that time…the temple virgins protected by older Jewish men.

But again, we do not know the specifics…yet our tradition has from the beginning supported her perpetual virginity among many believers, Mary’s single focus of mission, and the relationship she had with her son…I do not think people understand what I am saying either that if she had other children, who were mortals vs Jesus Who is God…that alone, that environment is a contradiction.

Consider Sarah who was barren, Elizabeth who had no children until St. John the Baptist. These women had very particular missions…and no other children.

How much more the mission of the Blessed Mother!!!

I agree totally with the conclusion of your post. I think though that you might want to check back into your sources for the notion that Temple Virgins were being maintained in the Temple of Jerusalem or in the public at large at this or any other time in Judea. The practice is historically reserved to the degenerated pagans in the Temples of Zeus, and Apollo and such. Also I would reject any considerations suggesting that perhaps Mary and the other Jewish girls of her day were thinking perhaps they would become Virgin Mothers by God. I would strongly embrace the idea that Mary was purely and simply adhering to the rule and custom of her religion that required women to remain virgin until married. But in Mary’s case we’re sure she was carrying out all virtues perfectly and with joy. By the way this would explain also as to why Mary was at first troubled by the words of the Angel. Beware of Revisionism.

 

[GaryTaylor]

We keep getting back to Matthew 1:25…

He had NO relations with her at any time before, the evangelist emphasizes the Virginity of the mother of Jesus from the moment of his conception till his Birth. He does not concern himself here with the period that followed the birth of Jesus, but merely wishs to show that Joseph fully respected the legal character of the paternity imposed on him by the devine will. Moreover the New Testament makes no mention anywhere of children of Mary and Joseph.

Thats all correct Scripture interpretation of Matthew 1:25. Now where does the Bible state Joseph and Mary had children?

 

[ERose]

What’s a ‘new age’ protestant?

I’m a non-catholic Christian who does not believe Mary was a perpetual virgin.

I probably should have used “modern” protestants, but anyhow the original protestants did not challenge Mary’s perpetual virginity. It is a relatively new challenge.

 

[elvisman]

Probably because it generally took a long time. Couples who were betrothed after the woman reached puberty could live that way for a year or two–sometimes longer. The man had to get, and provide, a home first. Girls betrothed before puberty waited even longer than that.

**Regardless of how long it took - Mary’s response to the Angel Gabriel is one of befuddlment. This would not have been the case for a girl/woman who knew the facts of life.

Also - the fact that Joseph DID marry her at the time he did doesn’t jive very well with your theory that Mary may have been going through puberty.

Lastly - I want you to provide me with documentation of these “facts” about Jewish marriage contracts - as far as they relate to these time-constraints you mentioned.

…or it could have been the natural response of a girl overwhelmed by a visit from an angel. The thing is, we ARE talking about the reactions of a 13/14 year old, no matter how special. I don’t think she was thinking about posterity at the time.

** . . . or it COULD have been the fact that she indeed chose to remain celibate - as the 2000 year-old tradition asserts.**

Come to think of it, we don’t really know the exact words she actually used, do we? Nobody witnessed this except the angel and Mary. Who DID write that script?

The Traditional teaching is that Luke interviewed Mary when he wrote his Gospel.
**Besides, if you don’t believe that the Scriptures were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - then you have a real problem.

 

[ERose]

ERose, apologies if you feel I avoided your questions
I believe Matt 1:25 has the primary purpose of stating a virgin birth.
I believe the verse incorrectly implies a loss of virginity for Mary (poor heos translation)

So what are you arguing about? If the intent was to show a virgin birth which we both agree and if you believe that it is incorrectly implying her loss of virginity that means the argument is closed and done. We both agree on the true intent and we both agree that this verse does not correctly imply that she loss her virginity. We are done here. Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Todd520]

We keep getting back to Matthew 1:25…

He had NO relations with her at any time before, the evangelist emphasizes the Virginity of the mother of Jesus from the moment of his conception till his Birth. He does not concern himself here with the period that followed the birth of Jesus, but merely wishs to show that Joseph fully respected the legal character of the paternity imposed on him by the devine will. Moreover the New Testament makes no mention anywhere of children of Mary and Joseph.

Thats all correct Scripture interpretation of Matthew 1:25. Now where does the Bible state Joseph and Mary had children?

IHi Gary,
I agree, the bible clearly states the virgin birth, but it does not clearly state she had other children or was a perpetual virgin.
Both positions can be inferred from selected scripture.

I choose not to have an opinion because the scripture is so unclear. I can love St Mary without pondering her PV.

 

[elvisman]

I probably should have used “modern” protestants, but anyhow the original protestants did not challenge Mary’s perpetual virginity. It is a relatively new challenge.

Yes - it is a relatively “new” invention as the early Reformers believed in her perpetual virginity.

As I’ve stated many times - this is the tragedy of the varying belief systems and constant splintering that is Protestantism.

Luther
“I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.”
(Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum***, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, p. 424.) ***

Calvin
“Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.”

---

**{Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55} **

---

Wesley
“The Blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as when she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.”
**{"John wesley" / In This Rock, Nov. 1990, p.25} **

 

[GaryTaylor]

Regardless of how long it took - Mary’s response to the Angel Gabriel is one of befuddlment. This would *not *have been the case for a girl/woman who knew the facts of life.

Also - the fact that Joseph DID marry her at the time he did doesn’t jive very well with your theory that Mary may have been going through puberty.

Lastly - I want you to provide me with documentation of these “facts” about Jewish marriage contracts - as far as they relate to these time-constraints you mentioned.

** . . . or it COULD** have been the fact that she indeed chose to remain celibate - as the 2000 year-old tradition asserts.

**The Traditional **teaching is that Luke interviewed Mary when he wrote his Gospel.
Besides, if you don’t believe that the Scriptures were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - then you have a *real *problem.

Luke was a constant guest at Johns and this is where the inspitation came from. He painted the Madonna there also. 100% correct also.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes - it is a relatively "new" invention as the early Reformers believed in her perpetual virginity.

As I’ve stated many times - this is the tragedy of the varying belief systems and constant splintering that is Protestantism.

Luther
“I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.”
(Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum***, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, p. 424.) ***

Calvin
“Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.”

---

{Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}

---

Wesley
“The Blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as when she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.”
{"John wesley" / In This Rock, Nov. 1990, p.25}

Not only this, but if you read “any” Bible thats written as “study help” such as the New American Bible, King James Red Letter Edition etc, this is all explained in the footnotes of scripture.

 

[ERose]

I have to say this is one of the fastest moving threads I have been involved in. Do any of you guys work or go to school?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Work, but just came home. Yes, this could be time consuming.

I believe theres many resolvable issues though. Much misunderstanding.

 

[adrift]

About the only thing all of us on this thread absolutely agree on is this: Mary was not ‘with’ Joseph. They were ‘betrothed’, in the first part of the Jewish marraige. She was living with her parents. Joseph was living elsewhere. This situation was very common. The marriage would be completed when Joseph came for her and took her to his home.

Which he did before the birth of Jesus. Joseph was married to Mary before the birth of Jesus both parts of the ceremony being completed.

 

[adrift]

Probably because it generally took a long time. Couples who were betrothed after the woman reached puberty could live that way for a year or two–sometimes longer. The man had to get, and provide, a home first. Girls betrothed before puberty waited even longer than that.

Incorrect the betrothal last about a year.

…or it could have been the natural response of a girl overwhelmed by a visit from an angel. The thing is, we ARE talking about the reactions of a 13/14 year old, no matter how special. I don’t think she was thinking about posterity at the time.Have you been around 13/14 year olds?

Come to think of it, we don’t really know the exact words she actually used, do we? Nobody witnessed this except the angel and Mary. Who DID write that script? She must have told Luke and we do know her exact words.