Catholics and Non-Catholics: Do you believe in the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mother?

[Dokimas]

Demanding that I do your homework again, eh?

**Give me some evidence **to substantiate your claims about the Chuch not coming into existence until the 3rd or 4th century.

I’ve gotten tire of you doing all the demanding. My turn.

 

[adrift]

And if Doki feels that it does have basis in fact, then he should have no problem providing some proof for this claim.

I’m all ears . . .

I am waiting too.

I’m sure if you follow the writings of your church, you can follow your history right back to Peter and Jesus.

What’s the difference between you and our Mormon friends? They do the same. They get their info indirectly directly from Jesus who was on this continent. Jesus told them as you say He told you.

I’ll stick with the Bible, thank you very much. God bless.

There is independant evidence of our history not so with the LDS. There is none zippo evidence of the Book of Mormon.

 

[elvisman]

I’ve gotten tire of you doing all the demanding. My turn.

You been EXPOSED yet again.

I will continue to expose you on every thread we meet because you present a counterfeit “truth” - certainly not of God.

We must always expose the lie for what it is and spread the truth of Christ’s Church.

 

[adrift]

I’ve gotten tire of you doing all the demanding. My turn.

Definition of ARROGANCE
: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

Without some evidence to substantiate your claims about the Chuch not coming into existence until the 3rd or 4th century you are making presuptuous claims and assumptions as well.

 

[Dokimas]

adrift:
Without some evidence to substantiate your claims about the Chuch not coming into existence until the 3rd or 4th century you are making presuptuous claims and assumptions as well.

The church was formed by Jesus was in existence before the CC. It’s the CC as we know it, that is not, IMO, the one and only church founded by Jesus. That’s what I’m referring to.

 

[Dokimas]

adrift:
Without some evidence to substantiate your claims about the Chuch not coming into existence until the 3rd or 4th century you are making presuptuous claims and assumptions as well.

There’s many ‘history’ books out there that have some differing understanding than yours. You want evidense that there’s a good alternative view, google it yourself.

 

[elvisman]

The church was formed by Jesus was in existence before the CC. It’s the CC as we know it, that is not, IMO, the one and only church founded by Jesus. That’s what I’m referring to.

Provide PROOF for this claim.

 

[Dokimas]

To you taunters,

Where’s your proof? You cut and paste things. So what? You state what you believe. So what?

 

[Dokimas]

While I’m at it, this is not a new discussion here. I’ve seen good ‘arguments’ that you guys have dismissed. I would give you anything new. And you’ll respond with your ‘smart’ answers.

Be honest with yourself. Look for yourselves. It’s your responsibility, not mine.

 

[elvisman]

To you taunters,

Where’s your proof? You cut and paste things. So what? You state what you believe. So what?

PROOF** that the Catholic Church is the very same Church that Jesus built:**

Matt 16:18-19
**And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. **
**I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." **

Matt. 18:15-18
**"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. **
**If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ **
**If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. **
**Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. **

2 Thess. 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

1 Cor. 11:2
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you".

1 Tim. 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Ignatius of Antioch
Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 A.D. 189]).

Now – show us YOUR proof that it didn’t exist until the 3rd or 4th century.**

 

[elvisman]

While I’m at it, this is not a new discussion here. I’ve seen good ‘arguments’ that you guys have dismissed. I would give you anything new. And you’ll respond with your ‘smart’ answers.

Be honest with yourself. Look for yourselves. It’s your responsibility, not mine.

WRONG.
It’a ALWAYS the responsibility of the person hurling the accusation to provide proof.
Since you refuse to provide any, consider yourself defeated.

See you on the forums . . .

 

[Dokimas]

Now – show us YOUR proof that it* didn’t* exist until the 3rd or 4th century.

Why has your church been know as the Roman Catholic Church?

Changing the name that was used for quite some time doesn’t rewrite history.

 

[Dokimas]

PROOF** that the Catholic Church is the very same** Church that Jesus built:

Matt 16:18-19
**And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. **
**I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." **

Matt. 18:15-18
**"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. **
**If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ **
**If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. **
**Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. **

2 Thess. 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

1 Cor. 11:2
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you".

1 Tim. 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Ignatius of Antioch
Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 A.D. 189]).

Now – show us YOUR proof that it* didn’t* exist until the 3rd or 4th century.

You proof my point. Just cutting and pasting is not proof. I would do the same and you say, ‘That’s not proof’. So I say again, ‘do your own homework if you’re serious.’ And let me add, not doing your own homework shows you’re not serious to know.

 

[adrift]

There’s many ‘history’ books out there that have some differing understanding than yours. You want evidense that there’s a good alternative view, google it yourself.

I don’t believe that there is. In stead of being so general be specific name these history books. Remember I said sectarian that is not written with the agenda of a certain religion.

 

[adrift]

Why has your church been know as the Roman Catholic Church?

Changing the name that was used for quite some time doesn’t rewrite history.

Dokimas we do not call our selves Roman Catholic Church but simply The Catholic Church. Like the term Mormon the name Roman began as a slur.

How did the Catholic Church get her name?

The term Roman Catholic is not used by the Church herself; it is a relatively modern term, and one, moreover, that is confined largely to the English language. The English-speaking bishops at the First Vatican Council in 1870, in fact, conducted a vigorous and successful campaign to insure that the term Roman Catholic was nowhere included in any of the Council’s official documents about the Church herself, and the term was not included.

Similarly, nowhere in the 16 documents of the Second Vatican Council will you find the term Roman Catholic. Pope Paul VI signed all the documents of the Second Vatican Council as “I, Paul. Bishop of the Catholic Church.” Simply that – Catholic Church. There are references to the Roman curia, the Roman missal, the Roman rite, etc., but when the adjective Roman is applied to the Church herself, it refers to the Diocese of Rome!

 

[Todd520]

**Give me some evidence to substantiate your claims about the Chuch not coming into existence until the 3rd or 4th century. **

So far - Doki hasn’t been able to.********

Please read my post again. I said the formal organization of the Catholic Church did not come together until well after the 1st century. I’ll have to study up more but I expect it coincides with the church becoming the state religion in Rome and several other countries, in the third century. Nothing like politics/success to screw up a good thing

Am qouting wiki as an independent source Christianity in the 1st century

The earliest followers of Jesus composed an apocalyptic, Second Temple, Jewish sect, … to spread the teachings of Jesus to “all nations,” had great success spreading the religion to gentiles, . . .

 

[david_ruiz]

I agree. What exactly is the point in arguing about it. You believe the Church teachings or you don’t. You ARE Catholic or you are not. Personally I like the Orthodox tradition wherein Joseph was a widower, probably with other children, when he married Mary. When looked at in this way it is far easier to accept Mary’s vow of chastity and Joseph’s acceptance of same within their marriage. Also explains the other references to possible other children in the Holy Family. To my knowledge this does not contradict any Roman Rite tradition or teaching.

I am new to this board and I am amazed at some of the discussions I have found here. No reference to this discussion at all it just came into my mind while typing this so please no offense intended to the OP.

Is it just me or do others tire of threads led by atheists, agnostics, and others not in the Church trying to disprove this or that tenant of the Catholic Church. Why exactly? Quite frankly I don’t see the point. This IS a Catholic board and most of us here DO believe. Some will never believe, and I get the really strong impression that they are running away from their own guilt and doubt by trying to “convince” believers that their beliefs are either delusional or unintelligent. In so doing they hope to convince themselves in their supreme arrogance that THEY have it right and they are not choosing hell like the little voice in the back of their heads is telling them that they are. I stop reading when I get to the guys throwing game theory and mathematical equations into discussions of theology and faith. Intellectual arrogance in it’s highest form. Argument for entertainment. Faith can never be “proven” by some equation of probability theory.

Don’t believe! It’s OK with me. We can tell you what the Church teaches. None of us can change that. Accept the teachings and proudly call yourself Catholic. Reject them and call yourself whatever you want.

It’s my belief, my delusion if YOU want to call it that, it’s OK with me. I’m happy. I hope you all are all happy too, whatever path you have chosen.

Sorry about the rant. Probably doesn’t belong here.

Regards, and my apology to the OP…way off topic I fear.

Bill Unland

Thank-tou .You have a 50% chance of being rite that Mary was ever -virgin

 

[david_ruiz]

PROOF** that the Catholic Church is the very same** Church that Jesus built:

Matt 16:18-19
**And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. **
**I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." **

Matt. 18:15-18
**"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. **
**If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ **
**If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. **
**Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. **

2 Thess. 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

1 Cor. 11:2
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you".

1 Tim. 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Ignatius of Antioch
Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 A.D. 189]).

Now – show us YOUR proof that it* didn’t* exist until the 3rd or 4th century.

Those are beautiful scriptures that all believers can claim. Where is your proof that Peter was Roman Catholic ? (that he was even head bishop, of Rome ,that he appointed a successor ?)? Where is your proof that the" traditions to be maintained "are yours,or mine?

 

[david_ruiz]

Dokimas we do not call our selves Roman Catholic Church but simply The Catholic Church. Like the term Mormon the name Roman began as a slur.

How did the Catholic Church get her name?

Christainity is catholic .Christians are catholic The term catholic began to be used when indeed the faith became universal -that is the same faith in Rome, as in Jerusalem, as in Alexandria etc.etc .It had nothing to do with "institution "or heirarchy ,except that which is mentioned in scripture (no head bishop or priests,just,bishops,deacons elders,prophets), All bishops of all cities directed by Christ’s Vicar on Earth-the Holy Spirit;Catholic by definition means universal .So today you must strip away all sectarianism ,or denominationalism or anything divisional, and where we all agree, to the simplicities of the gospel ,the bare fundamentals -to that extent we are the universal /catholic church

 

[campeador]

Christainity is catholic .Christians are catholic The term catholic began to be used when indeed the faith became universal -that is the same faith in Rome, as in Jerusalem, as in Alexandria etc.etc .It had nothing to do with "institution "or heirarchy ,except that which is mentioned in scripture (no head bishop or priests,just,bishops,deacons elders,prophets), All bishops of all cities directed by Christ’s Vicar on Earth-the Holy Spirit;Catholic by definition means universal .So today you must strip away all sectarianism ,or denominationalism or anything divisional, and where we all agree, to the simplicities of the gospel ,the bare fundamentals -to that extent we are the universal /catholic church

Friend, you misrepresent the truth. Here is some material that might help you understand the history of the Catholic Church:

catholic.com/library/pillar.asp