Catholics and Non-Catholics: Do you believe in the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mother?

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beneictus, your examples of until are not appropriate,
  • UNTIL someone dies has the very specific meaning: IT NEVER HAPPENED. It should not be compared with the usage in question.
  • UNTIL some future event is also a different usage with different meaning
So, to comapre the three usages
1 He was a virgin until the day he died (meaning is obvious)
2 He promised to remain a virigin until he found true love (we don’t know if anything changed)
3 He was a virgin until his honeymoon (we know he is married so we infer loss of virginity)

The truth is, **this is a bad translation ** since the contemporay use of UNTIL here has a different meaning than the original Greek.
Until is the wrong english word so stop using bad examples of until to defend it.

I agree the author was not trying to discuss their post birth sex life.
I wish the verse was explicit and read “Mary was a virgin until she died”, so this discussion would be over.
Sorry but no. Until is until. You are note getting out of that one.

Your three examples go right to the heart of our argument.😉

As for the contemporary use of the word, well that is why I gave you references to where the full Greek texts are used.

So try again.
 
Sorry but no. Until is until. You are note getting out of that one.

Your three examples go right to the heart of our argument.😉

As for the contemporary use of the word, well that is why I gave you references to where the full Greek texts are used.

So try again.
**
If a reader must know Greek to understand the text, it wasn’t translated very well.**
 
Do your own homework if you truly care. Don’t take the easy way out. The easy way out is to let me make any statement and then you try to destroy what I’ve said based on your beliefs.

Do your own homework to show you really want to read an alternative view of history. Don’t cop out on yourself.
The burden of proof is NOT on Elvis 's side because he did not make the claim.

The burden of proof is on you and Todd.

Either provide proof or acknowledge that neither of your knew what you were talking about when you made that claim.
 
**
If a reader must know Greek to understand the text, it wasn’t translated very well.**
That is why the translation was also given. You really ought to try to read better. ** Go back to the post and read and then rebut accordingly.**
 
That is why the translation was also given. You really ought to try to read better. ** Go back to the post and read and then rebut accordingly.**
Me thinks thou art dazed
Please restate what you think is in contention, as I feel I’ve answered without sufficient response from your part.
 
Friend, you misrepresent the truth. Here is some material that might help you understand the history of the Catholic Church:

catholic.com/library/pillar.asp
Thank-you .looked at site .I have read it before .I understand your position .You can not state it any better . Just would have to disagree, as have “some” saints thru the ages. I believe in all your scriptures that say Christ will be with us thru the ages ,and that the church is a pillar of truth etc…It is just that you deny all the other scriptures that warn the churches to watch how you build and what you build .Why ? because Jesus says we can add wood hay and stubble .Yes churches can be carnal .You also deny the truth behind the warnings and exhortations of Revelations, where only one of seven churches had no problem with it .This after only 60 years ! He warned that indeed a church can start out in the spirit and truth but end up in the flesh, even that you might have your candle (leading of the holy Spirit) TAKEN Away. You are like the O.T.where there are fantastic promises to Israel ,like foolproof protection and guidance ,but failed to see the warnings that some things from God are CONDITIONAL…You do exactly what the apostle Paul warns about.You boast that you are of “Peter”,and caused so much division (ironically in the name of unity -which was needed).The bible says Lift up Christ and men will be drawn to Him. That website did one thing mainly ,lift up your church .Why do most protestants just say they are christian , but Catholics will usually say first ,“I am Catholic”. That goes against the universality (catholicism) of the body of Christ ,His Bride. Protestants have a wide variety of weaknesses also , and have the same struggle to walk in the Light of truth , but generally are evangelistic , that is they lift up Christ ,and admonish a relationship with him ,and would be thrilled to lead one to Christ,and could care less if they then join a Baptist or Lutheran church etc .The main thing is to be kept. I wish I could be more charitable .Listen,Ii firmly believe that there are no Protestants in heaven ,but there are also not Orthodox ,nor Catholics-THEY DO NOT GO BY THOSE NAMES IN HEAVEN. The only people up there are those souls who have been washed in the precious Blood of the Lamb.To the extent that your historical church has preached that ,for the last two thousand years,those saints who participated shall be rewarded. Even those "churches "that were just founded just yesterday ,will receive THE SAME REWARD (remember the parable of the workers in the field ,who went out at different times of the day yet all got paid the same ?) Remember also Job ,and his three old friends ,they were upended by a young saint(Elihu) ,who got it right , because God puts the fire in a soul ,in a church and indeed some newer ones are shining brighter than some of the older ones. There is a lot of good in your church and others , I just admonish keeping the main thing the main thing ,and that is Jesus , not our church name or history…I thank God for the seeds planted in my heart by the Baltimore Catechism ,and the nuns and my sweet Catholic mother,but for me ,The final fruit bearer was a young protetsant youth pastor ,who did not give a hoot for church names but only that I really meet Jesus like never before.
 
Where is your proof that Peter was Roman Catholic ? (that he was even head bishop, of Rome ,that he appointed a successor ?
Friend, pulled this off a wiki site (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Linus):
The earliest witness is Irenaeus, who in about the year 180 wrote: “The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate.” The Oxford Dictionary of Popes interprets Irenaeus as saying that Linus was the first bishop of Rome. Linus is presented by Jerome as “the first after Peter to be in charge of the Roman Church”, by Eusebius, as “the first to receive the episcopate of the church at Rome, after the martyrdom of Paul and Peter” by John Chrysostom as “second Bishop of the Church of Rome after Peter”, while the Liberian Catalogue presents Peter as the first Bishop of Rome and Linus as his successor in the same office.
 
Please read my post again. I said the formal organization of the Catholic Church did not come together until well after the 1st century.
Todd, Todd, Todd. You are on a slippery slope here.

First you said the Catholic Church was founded 300 years after the death of Christ.

Then when I said it started at Pentecost you qualified your post by "at the first council) thinking that the first council was Nicea when in actual fact the first council was in Jerusalem as stated in Acts of the Apostles.

You see, apologetics is a tough job especially when you don’t have the truth. You will forever be trying to invent stuff just to shore up your position.

Now if you had remained Catholic, that job would have been easier. One of the members here who converted from Protestantism said that now he finds apologetics much easier.

It takes much more effort to lie than to tell the truth and unfortunately, it seems that is what you have been reading of late.
'll have to study up more but I expect it coincides with the church becoming the state religion in Rome and several other countries, in the third century. Nothing like politics/success to screw up a good thing
That Catholicism became the state religion of the Roman Empire has absolutely zilch to do with its beginnings.

The Church was founded by Christ and traces its beginnings at Pentecost though this was promised by Christ to Peter at Ceasaria Phillipi.

And that is what is so amazing about it. This small band of Christians was able to topple the mighty Roman Empire! That could have only happened due to Divine will.
 
Christainity is catholic .Christians are catholic The term catholic began to be used when indeed the faith became universal -that is the same faith in Rome, as in Jerusalem, as in Alexandria etc.etc .It had nothing to do with "institution "or heirarchy ,
Aah David, you should have stayed Catholic. Apologetics would have been a piece of cake then. But now you have problems.

The term Catholic means universal for Christ intended for there to be only one Church when He built His Church upon Peter who He made the Rock of His Church.

And it has everything to do with “institution” and “heirarchy” because that is the way Christ willed it. First He chooses from among His disciples 12 men. If He did not want heirarchy, he would have left it at just disciples. Second the Trinity (yes Father, Son and Holy Spirit) hand picks Peter for the primacy. The passages pertaining to Peter’s primacy in the NT abound.
except that which is mentioned in scripture (no head bishop or priests,just,bishops,deacons elders,prophets),
Did you see that? Did you see the contradiction or did you type that so fast you completely missed.

First you said there is no heirarcy then you just said there were Bishops (who obviously were higher than deacons) and there were elders (who obviously under the Bishop). Would you not call that heirarchy?
All bishops of all cities directed by Christ’s Vicar on Earth-the Holy Spirit;
That is downright laughable. The Holy Spirit is Christ’s Vicar on Earth??!!:eek::eek:

I suggest you try to get the definition of vicar.
Catholic by definition means universal .
Aah, finally a true statement!
So today you must strip away all sectarianism ,or denominationalism or anything divisional, and where we all agree, to the simplicities of the gospel ,the bare fundamentals -to that extent we are the universal /catholic church
David, David, David. Christ founded only Church and that is the Catholic Church under the Pope. That the others have decided to jump ship and sail the sea on make shift rafts is no other’s fault than the ship jumpers. That there are thousands of little rafts out there (and growing in number each year) is only the fault of the ship jumpers and later on the raft jumpers.

You are all most welcome to hop on back to the one and only ship that God meant to take us to the other side of eternity.

You are the ones who created sectarianism by jumping off the barque of St Peter so your statement is really quite funny.
 
Me thinks thou art dazed
Please restate what you think is in contention, as I feel I’ve answered without sufficient response from your part.
Todd, you really have got no grasp of logic.

You said:" If a reader must know Greek to understand the text, it wasn’t translated very well."

**If one does not know Greek, how does one know it was not translated very well?? !!

**Give you an example:

Someone says in Spanish : "Como esta usted?

Another translates that to English as : Where is your mother?

Unless you know Spanish, you will have no clue that that translation is completely wrong !

**You precisely need to know the original language before you can determine whether a translation is right or not. Without it, you are completely reliant on the competence of the translator and you have no way of knowing whether the translation is correct unless you learn the original language.

So your claim that the translation was bad holds no water because you are clueless as regards Greek.**
 
Those are beautiful scriptures that all believers can claim. Where is your proof that Peter was Roman Catholic ? **(that he was even head bishop, of Rome ,that he appointed a successor **?)?
How about because He was the very first Pope? You see the Roman Catholic is not the correct term. The Roman was added by the Anglicans. It was only ever One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Here is something I plucked from this page

catholic.com/library/Was_Peter_in_Rome.asp

The books referred to in the article are I believe readily available if you want to dig deeper.

Early Christian Testimony

William A. Jurgens, in his three-volume set The Faith of the Early Fathers, a masterly compendium that cites at length everything from the Didache to John Damascene, includes thirty references to this question, divided, in the index, about evenly between the statements that “Peter came to Rome and died there” and that “Peter established his See at Rome and made the bishop of Rome his successor in the primacy.” A few examples must suffice, but they and other early references demonstrate that there can be no question that the universal—and very early—position (one hesitates to use the word “tradition,” since some people read that as “legend”) was that Peter certainly did end up in the capital of the Empire.

A Very Early Reference

Tertullian, in The Demurrer Against the Heretics (A.D. 200), noted of Rome, “How happy is that church . . . where Peter endured a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned in a death like John’s [referring to John the Baptist, both he and Paul being beheaded].” Fundamentalists admit Paul died in Rome, so the implication from Tertullian is that Peter also must have been there. It was commonly accepted, from the very first, that both Peter and Paul were martyred at Rome, probably in the Neronian persecution in the 60s.

In the same book, Tertullian wrote that “this is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrnaeans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John; like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter.” This Clement, known as Clement of Rome, later would be the fourth pope. (Note that Tertullian didn’t say Peter consecrated Clement as pope, which would have been impossible since a pope doesn’t consecrate his own successor; he merely ordained Clement as priest.) Clement wrote his Letter to the Corinthians perhaps before the year 70, just a few years after Peter and Paul were killed; in it he made reference to Peter ending his life where Paul ended his.

In his Letter to the Romans (A.D. 110), Ignatius of Antioch remarked that he could not command the Roman Christians the way Peter and Paul once did, such a comment making sense only if Peter had been a leader, if not the leader, of the church in Rome.

Irenaeus, in Against Heresies (A.D. 190), said that Matthew wrote his Gospel “while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church.” A few lines later he notes that Linus was named as Peter’s successor, that is, the second pope, and that next in line were Anacletus (also known as Cletus), and then Clement of Rome.

Clement of Alexandria wrote at the turn of the third century. A fragment of his work Sketches is preserved in Eusebius of Caesarea’s Ecclesiastical History, the first history of the Church. Clement wrote, “When Peter preached the word publicly at Rome, and declared the gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had been for a long time his follower and who remembered his sayings, should write down what had been proclaimed.”

Lactantius, in a treatise called The Death of the Persecutors, written around 318, noted that “When Nero was already reigning (Nero reigned from 54–68), Peter came to Rome, where, in virtue of the performance of certain miracles which he worked by that power of God which had been given to him, he converted many to righteousness and established a firm and steadfast temple to God.”
Where is your proof that the" traditions to be maintained "are yours,or mine?
Since your traditions are man made then obviously the traditions established by Christ through His Church trumps yours 😉
 
Why has your church been know as the Roman Catholic Church?

Changing the name that was used for quite some time doesn’t rewrite history.
There is no such entity as “The Roman Catholic Church”.
It is simply, “The Catholic Church”.

The name, “Roman Catholic” came out of Henry VIII’s England after he broke away from the Church. His adherents would identify themselves as the “English Catholic Church” (which is false) and would identify those who remained obedient to the Pope as “Roman Catholics”.

However - this is not the official name of the Church.

STUDY YOUR HISTORY.
 
You proof my point. Just cutting and pasting is not proof. I would do the same and you say, ‘That’s not proof’. So I say again, ‘do your own homework if you’re serious.’ And let me add, not doing your own homework shows you’re not serious to know.
Cutting and pasting? I typed all of this.
Whether or not somebody actually DID paste their proof doesn’t make it any less true.


**You have offered NOTHING to this debate but 1 or 2 line hit-and-run posts, ignorance of history and tradition and good old fashioned arrogance . . .
 
Please read my post again. I said the formal organization of the Catholic Church did not come together until well after the 1st century. I’ll have to study up more but I expect it coincides with the church becoming the state religion in Rome and several other countries, in the third century. Nothing like politics/success to screw up a good thing

Am qouting wiki as an independent source Christianity in the 1st century
Are you serious? You offer an obscure Wikipedia entry as your “PROOF”?
You DO know that Wikepedia is put together by online posters, right? YOU or I could enter our own versions of the truth on Wikepedia. This isn’t reliable source for Church history. Do some REAL homework.

That being said - we have the New Testament, the Didache and writings from the Early Bishops and Popes - ALL from the 1st century as our proof that the Church was already established and being called “CATHOLIC” well before your imaginary time-frame of 300-400 years.
 
Those are beautiful scriptures that all believers can claim. Where is your proof that Peter was Roman Catholic ? (that he was even head bishop, of Rome ,that he appointed a successor ?)? Where is your proof that the" traditions to be maintained "are yours,or mine?
As for Proof of Peter’s Primacy as first head of the church, we need only appeal to Scripture and writings of the Early Church:
Matt 16:18-19

**And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. **
**I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." **

Luke 22:31-32
"Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, **
but I have prayed that your (singular) own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers." Clement of Alexandria
[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples
, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? “Behold, we have left all and have followed you” Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 A.D. 200]).**

Tertullian
[T]he Lord said to Peter, “On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven” Matt. 16:18-19]. … Upon you, he says, I will build my Church
**; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 A.D. 220]).

Letter of Clement to James
Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 A.D, 221]).

Cyprian
"…but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair
**. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 A.D. 251]).**

As for Tradition, Irenaeus, writing in the 2nd Century - about 100 years after the death of the apostle John lists the Popes from Peter to Eleutherius. He then makes the following statement:
"In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth."
 
Take a deep breath, and think about it.

If the text in contemporay english says she lost her virginity, then that is the english meaning of the sentence.
If someone who knows the originial Greek says that is not the intent of the original greek, then they are the greek expert disputing the translation (not me).

Repeat
I am claiming an accurate interpretation of the english text using contemporay english
You are the one who is claiming the published english translation is poor
/misleading versus the original Greek. I do not disupute you on this
Todd, you really have got no grasp of logic.

You said:" If a reader must know Greek to understand the text, it wasn’t translated very well."

If one does not know Greek, how does one know it was not translated very well?? !!

Give you an example:

Someone says in Spanish : "Como esta usted?

Another translates that to English as : Where is your mother?

Unless you know Spanish, you will have no clue that that translation is completely wrong !

**You precisely need to know the original language before you can determine whether a translation is right or not. Without it, you are completely reliant on the competence of the translator and you have no way of knowing whether the translation is correct unless you learn the original language.

So your claim that the translation was bad holds no water because you are clueless as regards Greek.**
 
I wonder…

Countries that were formerly Chriistian and do not have devotion to Mary, Perpetual Virgin…or Chritianity without perpetual virginity and celibacy to be honored…are these same countries having alot of problems with alot of sexual immorality?..I am greatly generalizing here as sexual immorality is a problem world wide…

I also come to think a an English Cardinal …Madding?..who said once a culture idolizes sex, it has lost it faith in God…I think devotion to Mary helps many today to be strong againt the sins of the flesh.
 
I wonder…

Countries that were formerly Chriistian and do not have devotion to Mary, Perpetual Virgin…or Chritianity without perpetual virginity and celibacy to be honored…are these same countries having alot of problems with alot of sexual immorality?..I am greatly generalizing here as sexual immorality is a problem world wide…

I also come to think a an English Cardinal …Madding?..who said once a culture idolizes sex, it has lost it faith in God…I think devotion to Mary helps many today to be strong againt the sins of the flesh.
Hi Kathleen, I think faith and a devotion to Mary can help at the individual level.
On a country level, I think lowered media stanards has a high correlation with idolizing sex and lost faith.
 
One thing I think can be added in these exchanges that might help is this: we see clearly in the Scriptures the institution of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but how do we know that that church is the Roman Catholic Church? Geographically of course the Church begins in Jerusalem, but truly the Church is in persons, here Mary was made Mother of the Church, and in a discernible way St. Peter as the Authority on Earth (vicar) of Christ. Now one subject pertaining to Peter that is hardly ever remarked upon is not that he was chosen (in fact he was chosen, not only by Our lord, but by God the Father and the Holy Spirit) but; why he was chosen? I know there were many reasons, but I think the express answer to this comes actually and surprisingly in Luke ch.5v8: "… he fell at the knees of Jesus and said: “Depart from me o Lord, for I am a sinful man.” This expression is altogether known to each and everyone of us, personally. This is the rock. this is the rock as is seen, upon which Christ builds HIS Church. We know of course not only from Tradition but by Scripture that St.Peter journeys to Rome and witnesses to the Jews, Gentiles,and Pagans as he tells us from"Babylon."Also by Scripture we know that he was crucified there. Now as painful as it may be, we have to look at the bigger picture of: why he had to go there? Because it was not only the Jews but the Romans (representative of all Gentiles) who crucified Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
 
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