Catholics and Non-Catholics: Do you believe in the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mother?

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Hi JeanMichel

I’m not sure what point you’re making here? First you say if she isn’t a virgin, it doesn’t matter then you say later she probably was and it does? I’m a touch confused here? :confused:
Having read many accounts of Marian apparitions, does her being a virgin or not a virgin really have any significance? She remains the virgin Mary, the mother of our Savior and Redeemer, Jesus.

The concept of virgins or virgin women setting themselves apart in devotion to God has been prevalent within Christianity since the time of Paul. Justin referred to it in his writings. We don’t have a Biblical reference to when Joseph died. Had he died early, it would be more easy to assert her virginity. Regardless, we have the witness of so many that Mary refers to herself as a virgin. Bernadette, and all the others, either saw Mary or they did not. If they saw her, she is the Blessed Mother and perpetual virgin.
 
Let’s just be intellectually honest. Dead honest. Seriously. Do you think there is more reasonable doubt that she WAS or WASN’T a virgin based on Scripture, the ECF’s, saints, doctors of the Church, tradition, and common sense? Seriously.
This is a good suggestion. I’ll break it down for you (from my perspective):

** On Scripture**…this is how I would briefly categorize it:
  1. Mary’s “how can this be” comment can be used to infer that she had a vow of celibacy. That being said, it would only disclose her plan at the time which would have included never having a child. Obviously at least part of that (inferred) plan changed….perhaps the entire vow (if it did exist) was abandoned. This also does not speak to virginity in partu which is also part of the whole PV package.
  2. Christ’s committing Mary into John’s care is consistent with Christ being an only son….but it is not the only possible reason for that action. Further, Christ being an only son is consistent with celibacy, but it doesn’t establish that daughters were not produced or that they did not engage in sex….only that they didn’t have another son. Again, this does not speak to virginity in partu which is also part of the whole PV package.
  3. The reference to the “brothers” and “sisters” of Christ in the context of including his biological mother is more suggestive that the people involved are brothers and sisters and not cousins. It is still possible that they could be Joseph’s kids from a previous marriage.
  4. The not “knowing her until’ passage can be used to infer that sexual relations commenced after Christ’s birth. It is only an inference, but IMHO it is likelier that the author understood that sex was part of their marriage.
  5. The unique reference to James as the Lord’s brother is IMHO is more suggestive of a blood relation than a spiritual. Again, this would not rule out that James was either a cousin or a step-brother.
  6. The absence of any reference to the in partu miraculous aspect of the birth is more consistent with such a thing having not happened, but not conclusive.
** the ECF’s, saints, doctors of the Church, tradition**
  1. The Protoevangelium of James from 150-170 AD teaches the PV of Mary. It is highly regarded by some later ECFs and is dismissed by other later ECFs. It is falsely attributed to James and is rather fanciful. Its credibility is questionable.
  2. Tertullian ca 200 AD teaches against the PV of Mary. Montanism or not, it would be very unlikely (IMHO) for Tertullian to go against the PV of Mary if it was an established teaching of the Church. As such, I think the historical evidence establishes that the PV of Mary was likely not taught in or around Carthage at the end of the 2nd century.
  3. The PV of Mary seems to catch on very early at the Alexandrian school with Clement and Origen.
  4. At Jerome’s time ca 400 AD, members of the orthodox church are still debating the PV of Mary. It would be odd for Helvidius (who IIRC contends that Mary is the ideal for both the female virgin and the mother) to deny Mary’s PV if it was known to be an apostolic teaching. Jerome attempts to support his position by enlisting the likes of Polycarp and Ignatius, but elsewhere Jerome lists their known works and they are the same works that we possess. There is nothing in those works that support Jerome’s position over Helvidius’s. Jerome really has no answer to Helvidius’s use of Tertullian in support of his position and it seems that Jerome wasn’t prepared to commit to the in partu aspect of the PV of Mary. Jerome seems to be arguing off of his own interpretation of scripture (vs an established and ancient tradition) and his attempt to use tradition (Ignatius and Polycarp etc.) comes up empty.
  5. It is conceded that the PVof Mary eventually became the established (and essentially universal) view of the church, but that doesn’t establish that it wasn’t an innovation.
  6. From early on the orthodox were arguing with the Gnostics. A Gnostic view was that Christ only had the appearance of flesh and did not actually come in the flesh. If the PV of Mary (and the other Marian doctrines) had been taught from the outset, one should expect that the orthodox would have appealed to those teachings to hammer the Gnostics……along the lines of, “If Jesus didn’t come in the flesh and wasn’t carried bodily in her womb, there would have been no need to keep her immaculate, a perpetual virgin etc….but since the flesh of Christ was actually carried in Mary’s womb, God did all of these things which have been taught in the church from the very start.” The silence is very suggestive.
** Common sense**

as soon as all the emotionally charged bias can be removed from the consideration of this matter, I think we can start to consider what common sense would suggest….at this time, what you believe to be dictated by common sense differs greatly from what I believe… and so one of us appealing to common sense won’t get very far with the other.
Many blessings.
back at you, Gurney
 
So your entire argument is based off one individual?
No, my one post focused on the works of one individual. Around 200 AD we have Tertullian on one side and the Protoevangelium of James on the other…given the choice between those two, Tertullian is clearly the more reputable.
Tertullian debunks Mary’s perpetual virginity? He later followed the likings of Montanism, yet still defened against Gnostics.
and what is it about Montanism that you think would have caused Tertullian to abandon the PVof Mary (which you think was an established teaching in the church)?
 
Until does NOT imply a change. Until only describes a certain period of time. Instead of using examples find the dictionary definition. The definition has no implication or statement that there is a change. The reason for the until is to indicate a period of a specific time. It doesn’t intend to say what happened after that period of time. Matthew was indicating a condition before Jesus’ birth not after. To indicate that until means a change is misusing the word.
I love your examples…because they mess up your point. For instance the one about the man never being able to relax UNTIL he took up fishing…obviously that indicated a change; the obvious implication is that taking up fishing allowed him to relax. The other example about the woman who "ran until she was breathless’ connotes the idea that when she became breathless, she stopped running.

The point is, nobody ever writes something like “she weeded the garden until it began to rain” unless that defining event affects the preceding action; if we are meant to understand that she weeded the garden after the rain started, then the word ‘until’ would not have been used.

In fact, can you come up with a single English sentence where ‘until’ is used–that does NOT imply a change to whatever activity is being performed before whatever event happens that causes the ‘until’ to show up?

She remained chaste until…???
He ran laps every morning until…???
The rain lasted until…???

Can you identify, or write, a sentence that uses “until” that does NOT imply a change to either the activity, the person, or the observer?

You can do something until your death—after which of course you can’t do anything.

You can do something until you move away–after which, of course, you might keep on doing whatever it is, but nobody in your own neighborhood will see you do it.

You can do something until something else happens…but it makes no sense to make that statement if that ‘something else’ doesn’t make a difference to whatever you were doing.

If the scriptures stated that Joseph refrained from “knowing” Mary, his wife, for the rest of his life, or until his death or hers, that would be really good evidence that she remained a virgin. However, specifically saying that he refrained from "knowing’ her until the birth of her Son…why bother, unless the birth of her Son signals a change for them in this area?

It’s not simply a measurement of time; it’s a time measurement of action. Boundaries to whatever it is you are doing–or not doing. Outside those boundaries, the connotation is that the action changes–else those boundaries are illogical.
 
And what I cannot understand why non-Catholics are so adamant that Mary HAD TO HAVE marital relations with Joseph after Jesus? Says who? Is the belief of Mary remaining an ever-virgin that much of an impossiblity for non-Catholics today? Is it impossible today for a woman today to remain a virgin or did she have to get married and have kids in order to make it ‘normal’ in the eyes of society? 🤷
It’s not, I don’t believe, that we are adamant that she HAD TO HAVE marital relations. It’s an assumption that, since she was a; Joseph’s wife and b; a very good Jew, that she simply would have. Not doing so would be very much against the culture of their time and the rules of their faith.

I don’t think any of us would be horrified if Mary refrained from being fully a wife to Joseph…certainly not the way Catholics seem to be horrified at the thought that she may have. It’s more a protest against the thought that Mary’s having marital relations (sex, guys, sheesh…) with Joseph is so horrific an idea—as if the natural and God commanded relationship between husband and wife is sinful.

…and yes, if it was sinful for Mary and Joseph, then it is sinful for the rest of us, too; how could it be anything LESS than a lesser form of obedience to God, if in order to be perfect in HIs eyes, we must refrain from it–even with our spouses?
 
Hi Again, Radical,

If I were guilty of a capital offense, I’d request you as my attorney. You have a good approach and mind for debate. Kudos.

Let me throw in my two (or fifty :p) cents about this. I’ll first make the case that Mary WAS immaculate with some new details:
  1. Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli all believed Mary a perpetual Virgin. Luther’s scholarship in the New Testament is outstanding. He still found her a PV. Calvin, who was no stranger to innovation and a far left Evangelical excursionary style, believed her a PV. Zwingli, the master of the Eucharistic absence and many other departures from the historic faith, also believed her a PV. These men are not popes but their opinion is valuable in the exploration of the topic I think.
  2. The Protoevangelium points toward a PV in Mary. This document was written only about 60 years, it is estimated, after the death of Mary so it was still somewhat fresh, not centuries afterward.
  3. Origen, as previously stated, was one of the earliest (mid third century) to point out the PV of Mary
  4. Jesus gives His Mother to John as an only-child (I happen to be on incidentally so this hits home) would with no brothers. And Hilary of Poitiers seems to agree with me:
    “***If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate” (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]). ***
  5. Apart from Tertullian, there is hardly a shread of anyone claiming Mary wasn’t a PV?
  6. Using the phrase “until” when speaking of Mary’s sexual relations doesn’t prove anything. This word is used in the Old Testament as well and it doesn’t necessarily get used the way the modern English language utilizes it. It could’ve just as easily meant up to that time when Jesus was born. Examples of “until” used in the OT: 2 Samuel 6:23, 1 Timothy 4:13, 1 Corinthians 15:25
  7. James was NOT Jesus’s brother. There are two James’ mentioned in Scripture and we hear their fathers. We have James, the son of Zebede. Then we have James son of Alphaeus. No mention of James, son of Joseph.
  8. Mary was “espoused” to Joseph before the final marriage. This system in Judaism gave Joseph the right to enjoy his wife intimately in the marriage bed before the final marriage ceremony. At the time Mary was already espoused, she said to the Angel Gabriel that she “knew no man” which indicates they obviously weren’t intimate. More than likely, they would’ve been in Jewish culture of that day.
  9. Mary’s true “spouse” is the Holy Spirit who “overshadows” her in Luke 1:34. Notice this overshadowing language is used with Ruth as well in Ruth 3:8. Joseph’s role was more caretaker of Mary and Protector of Jesus than his role was a typical husband with typical needs and roles in our culture.
  10. One of the supposed “brothers” of Jesus mentioned is named Joseph. In Jewish culture it was and is exceptionally rare to name a child the same name as the father. While this is common in our culture, it was very uncommon in Jewish culture. It’s like in American culture how no one names their son “Jesus” yet in Spanish culture they do.
Now I’ll argue, intellectually honest as possible, against the PV of Mary:
  1. The Protoevangelium of Mary is about as reliable as the Protoevangelium of James, a gnostic work. Hardly a reliable source if the CC rejects the gnostic extrabiblical accounts, why be open to the Marian ones?
  2. The argument that Jesus’s “brothers” were just his step-brothers (the kids belonging to Joseph from before he married Mary) is weak in that St. Jerome claims that Joseph was a virgin himself when he became the husband of Mary? How can he have kids from a previous marriage being a virgin like Mary? You use Jerome to prove she was a PV, so you have to be consistent with Jerome’s opinion in saying Joseph was a virgin himself. So the argument of kids from a prior marriage, if you’re going to stick to Jerome, is out!
  3. Most arguments by saints against the PV of Mary took place centuries after her death, by people who never knew her.
  4. The James that is called “brother” is neither the Zebede son or the son of Alphaeus, but some other James we don’t know.
  5. According to Paul, abstinence in marriage is only to be temporary 1 Corin. 7:3-5, and Genesis tells us that marriage is so that a couple will “become one flesh.” Why is it any different with the Holy Family?
  6. Perhaps Jesus did have brothers and just gave Mary to John because he wanted her cared for by someone of the apostolic community, by the “apostle that he loved” and trusted most.
This is a good suggestion. I’ll break it down for you (from my perspective):

** On Scripture**…this is how I would briefly categorize it:
  1. Mary’s “how can this be” comment can be used to infer that she had a vow of celibacy. That being said, it would only disclose her plan at the time which would have included never having a child. Obviously at least part of that (inferred) plan changed….perhaps the entire vow (if it did exist) was abandoned. This also does not speak to virginity in partu which is also part of the whole PV package.
  2. Christ’s committing Mary into John’s care is consistent with Christ being an only son….but it is not the only possible reason for that action. Further, Christ being an only son is consistent with celibacy, but it doesn’t establish that daughters were not produced or that they did not engage in sex….only that they didn’t have another son. Again, this does not speak to virginity in partu which is also part of the whole PV package.
    back at you, Gurney
 
Again you are using an example instead of a definition.

What part of speach is your example. It is a preposition phrase which used as a function word to indicate continuance (as of an action or condition) to a specified time until your homework is done.

However, until used by Matthew is a conjunction which indicate up to the time that : up to such time as but does not indicate anything after. In other words, you aren’t using it the same as Matthew does.
How about this: "You can’t watch TV until you do all your homework.
 
Until does NOT imply a change. Until only describes a certain period of time. Instead of using examples find the dictionary definition. The definition has no implication or statement that there is a change. The reason for the until is to indicate a period of a specific time. It doesn’t intend to say what happened after that period of time. Matthew was indicating a condition before Jesus’ birth not after. To indicate that until means a change is misusing the word.
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/until?show=1&t=1284067485

"def #2 until as conjunction
Definition of UNTIL
: up to the time that : up to such time as

Examples of UNTIL
We played until it got dark.
Keep going until I tell you to stop.
I ran until I was breathless.
Stay here until the danger has passed.
Stir the dough until it forms a ball."

You did say that ‘until’ was a conjunction in Matthew 1:25, didn’t you? Look at the example. What is implied in each? A change afterwards, correct?
 
Hi JeanMichel

I’m not sure what point you’re making here? First you say if she isn’t a virgin, it doesn’t matter then you say later she probably was and it does? I’m a touch confused here? :confused:
Hello and thank you for your kind question. Alas, I must apologize; I seldom can accurately explain myself.

My initial statement was really meant to posit a question, “Does it matter” to all those who criticize the position.

My second intention was to then posit that the beliefs of this doctrine were supported by not just one Marian apparition, but a host of them. If the doctrine was not true, then all of these apparitions are false. If they are true, even one of them, then the doctrine is true.

I have visited Lourdes several times. It is not a place where you can visit without feeling the wonderful peace of the Holy Spirit. Did she appear to St. Bernadette? Yes, she did; many times.

At the end of the day, I would agree that this knowledge does not affect one’s eternal salvation, but I would also say that knowing it brings more light and truth to the one’s soul. I hope that helps.
 
It’s always shaky ground to compare modern syntax and semantics to ancient languages that used language so differently from us. The Merriam-Webster dictionary is apples and oranges to the Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew of Jesus’s day.

I’d like to hear your thoughts, giving this a fair and open-minded reading, on this article from Catholic Answers that I thought wasn’t too shabby:

Until Then

Scripture’s statement that Joseph “knew [Mary] not until she brought forth her firstborn” would not necessarily mean they did “know” each other after she brought forth Jesus. Until is often used in Scripture as part of an idiomatic expression similar to our own usage in English. I may say to you, “Until we meet again, God bless you.” Does that necessarily mean after we meet again, God curse you? By no means. A phrase like this is used to emphasize what is being described before the until is fulfilled. It is not intended to say anything about the future beyond that point. Here are some biblical examples:
2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to (until) the day of her death. (Does this mean she had children after she died?)
1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)
1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, “he will reign over the house of Jacob forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”)
In recent years, some have argued that because Matthew 1:25 uses the Greek words heos hou for “until” whereas the texts I mentioned above from the New Testament use heos alone, there is a difference in meaning. The argument goes that Heos hou indicates the action of the first clause does not continue. Thus, Mary and Joseph “not having come together” would have ended after Jesus was born.

The problems with this theory begin with the fact that no available scholarship concurs with it. In fact, the evidence proves the contrary. Heos hou and heos are used interchangeably and have the same meaning. Acts 25:21 should suffice to clear up the matter: “But when Paul had appealed to be kept in custody for the decision of the emperor, I commanded him to be held until (Gk. heos hou) I could send him to Caesar.”

Does this text mean that Paul would not be held in custody after he was “sent” to Caesar? Not according to the biblical record. He would be held in custody while in transit (see Acts 27:1) and after he arrived in Rome for a time (see Acts 29:16). The action of the main clause did not cease with heos hou.
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/until?show=1&t=1284067485

"def #2 until as conjunction
Definition of UNTIL
: up to the time that : up to such time as

Examples of UNTIL
We played until it got dark.
Keep going until I tell you to stop.
I ran until I was breathless.
Stay here until the danger has passed.
Stir the dough until it forms a ball."

You did say that ‘until’ was a conjunction in Matthew 1:25, didn’t you? Look at the example. What is implied in each? A change afterwards, correct?
 
It’s always shaky ground to compare modern syntax and semantics to ancient languages that used language so differently from us. The Merriam-Webster dictionary is apples and oranges to the Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew of Jesus’s day.

I’d like to hear your thoughts, giving this a fair and open-minded reading, on this article from Catholic Answers that I thought wasn’t too shabby:

Until Then
Notice, please, that I was responding to a poster that spoke of definition and the usage of ‘until’ as conjunction and as prepesition.

I’d love to look at your verses of until. Have you seen mine just from Matthew? I have noticed your response to them.

You reminded me that applying today’s understanding may be different that 2000 yrs ago. Point well taken. You realize you quoted an OT verse using ‘until’ which was written hundreds of yrs before Matthew 1:25 and in a different language.
 
Hello and thank you for your kind question. Alas, I must apologize; I seldom can accurately explain myself.

My initial statement was really meant to posit a question, “Does it matter” to all those who criticize the position.

My second intention was to then posit that the beliefs of this doctrine were supported by not just one Marian apparition, but a host of them. If the doctrine was not true, then all of these apparitions are false. If they are true, even one of them, then the doctrine is true.

I have visited Lourdes several times. It is not a place where you can visit without feeling the wonderful peace of the Holy Spirit. Did she appear to St. Bernadette? Yes, she did; many times.

At the end of the day, I would agree that this knowledge does not affect one’s eternal salvation, but I would also say that knowing it brings more light and truth to the one’s soul. I hope that helps.
Are you saying this because she referred to herself as the Blessed Virgin Mary? I’m not aware of what she said during these visions that would mean she was the ever virgin Mary. There is no question she was blessed as a Virgin at Christ’s conception.
 
Notice, please, that I was responding to a poster that spoke of definition and the usage of ‘until’ as conjunction and as prepesition.

I’d love to look at your verses of until. Have you seen mine just from Matthew? I have noticed your response to them.

You reminded me that applying today’s understanding may be different that 2000 yrs ago. Point well taken. You realize you quoted an OT verse using ‘until’ which was written hundreds of yrs before Matthew 1:25 and in a different language.
Doki…greetings brother! I too have said the same about trying to apply modern applications to ancient cultures and languages. Honestly for me, I frankly could careless, if one chooses not to believe Mary remained an ever-virgin or that she had more kids. It is an endless debate and topic that will never end or be resolved. Now does it mean we cannot discuss it ecumenically or civilly? Of course not. The same can be said about the canon of the OT…and a never ending debate;however, I know that the NRSV is an ecumenical Bible designed for all Christians (Catholic,Protestant,Orthodox,Evangelical,etc) because it inlcudes the 7 books. Wow! It can be done…get along and agree…🙂

Last but not least, at times I believe all Christians of all traditions tend to focus on things,which are not of the utmost importance. And no, I am not saying Mary is not important or irrevelant, but our focus should be Jesus and I am sure his mother would agree with me,

Peace!
 
I do realize that, Dokimas. Thanks. I’m merely pointing out that the conventional useages of words differ a great deal from the ancient world. That’s all. Same principle would apply between the very old OT and the later NT. You’re correct. Blessings to you!
Notice, please, that I was responding to a poster that spoke of definition and the usage of ‘until’ as conjunction and as prepesition.

I’d love to look at your verses of until. Have you seen mine just from Matthew? I have noticed your response to them.

You reminded me that applying today’s understanding may be different that 2000 yrs ago. Point well taken. You realize you quoted an OT verse using ‘until’ which was written hundreds of yrs before Matthew 1:25 and in a different language.
 
Doki…greetings brother! I too have said the same about trying to apply modern applications to ancient cultures and languages. Honestly for me, I frankly could careless, if one chooses not to believe Mary remained an ever-virgin or that she had more kids. It is an endless debate and topic that will never end or be resolved. Now does it mean we cannot discuss it ecumenically or civilly? Of course not. The same can be said about the canon of the OT…and a never ending debate;however, I know that the NRSV is an ecumenical Bible designed for all Christians (Catholic,Protestant,Orthodox,Evangelical,etc) because it inlcudes the 7 books. Wow! It can be done…get along and agree…🙂

Last but not least, at times I believe all Christians of all traditions tend to focus on things,which are not of the utmost importance. And no, I am not saying Mary is not important or irrevelant, but our focus should be Jesus and I am sure his mother would agree with me,

Peace!
Agreed. Thank you and God bless, my friend and brother in the Lord Jesus.
 
Are you saying this because she referred to herself as the Blessed Virgin Mary? I’m not aware of what she said during these visions that would mean she was the ever virgin Mary. There is no question she was blessed as a Virgin at Christ’s conception.
You are correct, I was not thinking clearly and confusing the concept of Immaculate Conception and Perpetual Virginity. It has been a while since I have studied these things and they had merged in my head. Thank you for correcting me.
 
It’s always shaky ground to compare modern syntax and semantics to ancient languages that used language so differently from us. The Merriam-Webster dictionary is apples and oranges to the Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew of Jesus’s day.

I’d like to hear your thoughts, giving this a fair and open-minded reading, on this article from Catholic Answers that I thought wasn’t too shabby:

Until Then

Scripture’s statement that Joseph “knew [Mary] not until she brought forth her firstborn” would not necessarily mean they did “know” each other after she brought forth Jesus. Until is often used in Scripture as part of an idiomatic expression similar to our own usage in English. I may say to you, “Until we meet again, God bless you.” Does that necessarily mean after we meet again, God curse you? By no means. A phrase like this is used to emphasize what is being described before the until is fulfilled. It is not intended to say anything about the future beyond that point. Here are some biblical examples:
2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to (until) the day of her death. (Does this mean she had children after she died?)
1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)
1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, “he will reign over the house of Jacob forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”)
In recent years, some have argued that because Matthew 1:25 uses the Greek words heos hou for “until” whereas the texts I mentioned above from the New Testament use heos alone, there is a difference in meaning. The argument goes that Heos hou indicates the action of the first clause does not continue. Thus, Mary and Joseph “not having come together” would have ended after Jesus was born.

The problems with this theory begin with the fact that no available scholarship concurs with it. In fact, the evidence proves the contrary. Heos hou and heos are used interchangeably and have the same meaning. Acts 25:21 should suffice to clear up the matter: “But when Paul had appealed to be kept in custody for the decision of the emperor, I commanded him to be held until (Gk. heos hou) I could send him to Caesar.”

Does this text mean that Paul would not be held in custody after he was “sent” to Caesar? Not according to the biblical record. He would be held in custody while in transit (see Acts 27:1) and after he arrived in Rome for a time (see Acts 29:16). The action of the main clause did not cease with heos hou.
What it means is…there is a change. I mentioned that there are three changes that could be refered to when ‘until’ is used…all three put a boundary on a specific action, and all three imply change in that action. this quote is a wonderful example of one of them.

First, there is the change in action; you do something until you cease doing it, or you refrain from doing it until you begin doing it. Example: “Martha cleaned house until the guests arrived”…implying that Martha stopped cleaning the house when the guests showed up. Or…keep preaching and teaching until I show up, implying that when I DO show up, I’ll have other instructions/additional instructions/for you. Or…Christ must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet…" at which time there will be a change in the manner of his reign, don’t you think? A change. SOMETHING changes.

Second, there is the change in perception; you see someone doing something until you no longer see it; the change is in what the observer sees, not in the action being seen; “Harry took care of his neighbor’s lawn until he moved away.” ~~implying that if Harry took care of his neighbor’s house in his new location, nobody in his old one saw him doing so.

Third, there is the change that stops everything. “She remained single until the day of her death.” (or…Michal had no children until her death…) That boundary puts the kibosh on everything.

The above quote is a combination of the first and second possibilities. First, it refers, not to Paul’s encarceration, but to the speaker’s responsibility; sort of like “he remained in my jail until I could transfer him to Tehachapi.” The action here isn’t the continued incarceration of the prisoner, but my responsibility for it; that ended and he became somebody else’s problem. In that way it also refers to the second possibility; he may or may not remain incarcerated after I send him to Caesar–but my job will be ended so I won’t see it either way.

In all ways it remains…a change happens. The problem with translation is that we have to get concept to concept; “until” is a very specific concept in English. There’s no real getting around it as a coordinating conjunction and a boundary of action that reflects change. Therefore, if that’s not what was MEANT, then we have a much larger problem than might be first seen.
 
oh those prepositions and word usages…it is no wonder we are exhorted not to change one word of Scripture!!!
 
I suspect if Mary remained a virgin after her marriage it was because Joseph was an older man incapable of sex. Maybe that is the way God planned it. In that case the brothers and sisters of Jesus would be Joseph’s children from a previous marriage in which case it wouldn’t be unusual if they rejected the mission of Jesus. It is also possible that Matthew really had no knowledge of Mary and Joseph’s sex life after the marriage and he just assumed that sex was part of their marriage making the issue of his use of the word “until” irrelevant. Unless you take a fundamentalist approach to the Bible, it may be that Matthew was simple assuming too much. I don’t think we know. Seriously, I’m not sure the Early Church Fathers would have been in a position to know either and may have imposed their own biases on the topic. At any rate, it seems a rather unimportant issue in regards to our salvation unless we insist on making it important. For most Protestants and many Catholics I suspect it is a non-issue.
 
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