Catholics and Non-Catholics: Do you believe in the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mother?

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Elvis, I’m now embarrased for you, but here it goes in full detail.

Three of your examples are the same sentence, and it describes a future event
Psalm 110 “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
Matthew 22:44
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET”’?
Acts 2:34-35**“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.”’

When Until is for a future event, we don’t know what happens next, it’s not clearly implied.
However, using my requested sentence structure does have clear implications:
**The boy sat at the table until he finished his homework. **
This is the requested equivalent sentence structure, and it clearly implies he left the table sometime after finishing his homework.

Now on to your remaining example
2 Samuel 6:23*: Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.
Using ‘until someone died’ is a very special usage and clearly indicates it never happened. It would support the PV story if scriptures read:
“How can this be, since I will be a virgin until I die?”
“he had no union with her until the day she died”

But they don’t read this, they say something that is not clear or explicit about her PV
Todd -
You fail to understand what these three passages are saying.
Psalm 110, Matthew 22:44, Acts 2:34-35:

** “Sit at My right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool.”**

The word, "Until" used here does NOT imply that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father. He will be there for ETERNITY.

What you are implying is that Jesus WILL CEASE to sit at the right hand of the Father AFTER his enemies are made his footstool.


**I’ve got news for you, friend - this has ALREADY happened but you FAIL to understand the concept of eternity. Are you now saying that Jesus is no longer at the right hand of the Father? Is that what you’re saying??

**Embarrasing, indeed . . .
 
In other words, Rose, it’s our fault that we don’t believe as you do regarding this because…we don’t believe as you do about this? 😉
No it is the fault of the heretics that founded your churches that lead your people away from the pillar and foundation of truth.
 
NO, I did answer your question - I said it doesn’t make sense to me and I wondered about alternative meanings in the original greek.

If you force me to speculate, i see a poor translation with two scenarios:
  • the angel told Mary she was already pregnant. This fits perfectly with her question “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”
  • they excluded Mary’s vow to “remain a virgin until the day she died”
I do believe the bible is not translated clearly in many spots. The use of until in Matt 1:25 is another example I would like to see changed, to improve clarity of meaning.
Yes, you would need to change the text to maintain the modern Mormon belief. But the third scenario is the text is correct as it is therefore it supports the ancient belief that Mary never intended to have a ‘normal’ marriage with Joseph. The text supports the Catholic Church and that is why the Church did not exclude it for the canon of the New Testament.
 
My intention has been to challenge misuse of scripture and false logic. To be candid, Catholics could learn from this discussion and stick to arguments that support their assertation, stop trying to convince people with holy scripture.
If that was your intention you have failed because all i have seen is misuse of scripture from your arguments. I don’t think you have answered my question yet concerning the intent of Matthew writing that sentence. Was he trying to tell us about Mary & Joseph’s sex life or to tell us that Jesus was born of a virgin?
 
This is the thing that I have seen. Mormons and new age Protestants do not have the foundation to properly interpret scripture as it has been evidenced by the “I just don’t know” answers that we keep getting and the “You have to prove your position because we cannot defend ours” responses.

This should at least make you at least question your foundation. Which you have shown to us is very weak.
What’s a ‘new age’ protestant?

I’m a non-catholic Christian who does not believe Mary was a perpetual virgin.
 
No sir this is using the English poorly. We have standard definitions. You are using a made up definition. Until only denotes a period of time up to a point not after. You never address this. I have **challenged **you to provide a reliable dictionary that supports your claim. You cannot so you resort to your own definition. Sorry your definition is incorrect and is not the meaning of until. Elvis has provided the Greek which does not contradict the English definition. Elvis gave you the meanings but he did not say that each meaning applied to the scripture used. Matthew was not intending to say anything about what happened after Jesus’ birth. It does not prove one way or another Mary’s virginity. I don’t think anyone here is saying that it does. Mary is the one who says it in Luke.
I gave a dictionary definition and got blasted for it cuz it’s not the same def as the 1st century use of ‘until’ (heol).
 
NO, I did answer your question - I said it doesn’t make sense to me and I wondered about alternative meanings in the original greek.

If you force me to speculate, i see a poor translation with two scenarios:
  • the angel told Mary she was already pregnant. This fits perfectly with her question "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"
  • they excluded Mary’s vow to “remain a virgin until the day she died”
I do believe the bible is not translated clearly in many spots. The use of until in Matt 1:25 is another example I would like to see changed, to improve clarity of meaning.
Todd - now you’re resorting to lying to make your point.
Mary NEVER said, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"
She said,
"How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?"
 
Todd - now you’re resorting to lying to make your point.
Mary NEVER said, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”
She said, "How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?"
Here are three translations, two which use the term virgin

NAS : Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”
NIV : How will this be," Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
KJV : Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Now please apologize for your rash accusation :cool:
 
The other thing, Todd, Mary was not pregnant when the Angel Gabriel came to her.

It was only when she consented, that the Holy Spirit overshadowed her. She could have said no.

We call Mary’s ‘Yes’, the Fiat.

Christ came into the world with Mary’s consent. Again, the importance of her role in our salvation…the greatest mission/vocation any woman could have.

One could say of all the popes, priests, ministers, deacons, prime ministers and presidents, Mary’s yes to God was the greatest mission of any creature in any given moment in time…note-- creature…not God Himself.
 
I gave a dictionary definition and got blasted for it cuz it’s not the same def as the 1st century use of ‘until’ (heol).
I had to go back to see your definition. I didn’t see anyone blasting you. The definition you gave was the same that I have been giving. What your definition does not say is that it means a change takes place. This is what I am asking for. A definition that says that it means something happens afterward. Since the definition of until means up to a point which is what your definition said, it only refers to the time before Jesus was born not after. This is the definition that I am asking for one that supports your view. You have not given me that definition. The dispute with you is not a difference in opinion but that you have not provided a definition that supports your view.
 
If that was your intention you have failed because all i have seen is misuse of scripture from your arguments. I don’t think you have answered my question yet concerning the intent of Matthew writing that sentence. Was he trying to tell us about Mary & Joseph’s sex life or to tell us that Jesus was born of a virgin?
ERose, apologies if you feel I avoided your questions
I believe Matt 1:25 has the primary purpose of stating a virgin birth.
I believe the verse incorrectly implies a loss of virginity for Mary (poor heos translation)
 
Most Protestants claim that Mary bore children other than Jesus. To support their claim, these Protestants refer to the biblical passages which mention the “brethren of the Lord.” As explained in the Catholic Answers tract Brethren of the Lord, neither the Gospel accounts nor the early Christians attest to the notion that Mary bore other children besides Jesus. The faithful knew, through the witness of Scripture and Tradition, that Jesus was Mary’s only child and that she remained a lifelong virgin.

An important historical document which supports the teaching of Mary’s perpetual virginity is the Protoevangelium of James, which was written probably less than sixty years after the conclusion of Mary’s earthly life (around A.D. 120), when memories of her life were still vivid in the minds of many.

According to the world-renowned patristics scholar, Johannes Quasten: “The principal aim of the whole writing [Protoevangelium of James] is to prove the perpetual and inviolate virginity of Mary before, in, and after the birth of Christ” (Patrology, 1:120–1).

To begin with, the Protoevangelium records that when Mary’s birth was prophesied, her mother, St. Anne, vowed that she would devote the child to the service of the Lord, as Samuel had been by his mother (1 Sam. 1:11). Mary would thus serve the Lord at the Temple, as women had for centuries (1 Sam. 2:22), and as Anna the prophetess did at the time of Jesus’ birth (Luke 2:36–37). A life of continual, devoted service to the Lord at the Temple meant that Mary would not be able to live the ordinary life of a child-rearing mother. Rather, she was vowed to a life of perpetual virginity.

However, due to considerations of ceremonial cleanliness, it was eventually necessary for Mary, a consecrated “virgin of the Lord,” to have a guardian or protector who would respect her vow of virginity. Thus, according to the Protoevangelium, Joseph, an elderly widower who already had children, was chosen to be her spouse. (This would also explain why Joseph was apparently dead by the time of Jesus’ adult ministry, since he does not appear during it in the gospels, and since Mary is entrusted to John, rather than to her husband Joseph, at the crucifixion).

According to the Protoevangelium, Joseph was required to regard Mary’s vow of virginity with the utmost respect. The gravity of his responsibility as the guardian of a virgin was indicated by the fact that, when she was discovered to be with child, he had to answer to the Temple authorities, who thought him guilty of defiling a virgin of the Lord. Mary was also accused of having forsaken the Lord by breaking her vow. Keeping this in mind, it is an incredible insult to the Blessed Virgin to say that she broke her vow by bearing children other than her Lord and God, who was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit.

The perpetual virginity of Mary has always been reconciled with the biblical references to Christ’s brethren through a proper understanding of the meaning of the term “brethren.” The understanding that the brethren of the Lord were Jesus’ stepbrothers (children of Joseph) rather than half-brothers (children of Mary) was the most common one until the time of Jerome (fourth century). It was Jerome who introduced the possibility that Christ’s brethren were actually his cousins, since in Jewish idiom cousins were also referred to as “brethren.” The Catholic Church allows the faithful to hold either view, since both are compatible with the reality of Mary’s perpetual virginity.

Today most Protestants are unaware of these early beliefs regarding Mary’s virginity and the proper interpretation of “the brethren of the Lord.” And yet, the Protestant Reformers themselves—Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli—honored the perpetual virginity of Mary and recognized it as the teaching of the Bible, as have other, more modern Protestants.
Why wasn’t this book put in the canon?
 
You’re absolutely correct. The text DOES say what it says:
***“How can this be, since ***I have no relations with a man?”

It is YOU who keeps trying to apply a different meaning to it. 🤷
Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

This tell us two things: Mary had not had sex in the past AND in the present. It tells us nothing about her future experience.
 
Now that is an embarrassing statement. I suppose you will apologize for misquoting.
I won’t hold my breath. 😛
Please remind me of where I misquoted?
And, do forum rules limit us to only using King James?
 
Here are three translations, two which use the term virgin

NAS : Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”
NIV : How will this be," Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
KJV : Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Now please apologize for your rash accusation :cool:
**Sorry, pal - **
YOU came to this discussion with a really bad understanding of linguistics - however, that is not my problem.

In the GREEK - which is what Luke was written in - Mary’s question is NOT stated the way you presented it. She never mentioned her virginity. she stated that she does not have sex with men - PERIOD.


**IF she intended to have relations with Joseph, she would NOT have asked the question. **
She said:
"How can this be, since I know not man (have no relations, don’t have sex)?"
 
Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

This tell us two things: Mary had not had sex in the past AND in the present. It tells us nothing about her future experience.
**Because Gabriel didn’t tell her that she WAS pregnant. He told her that she was going to be pregnant. **

Mary wasn**'t an idiot who didn’t understand that she could BECOME pregnant after sleeping with Joseph. This is clear evidence that she had no intention of having sex.**
 
Elvis, I’m now embarrased for you, but here it goes in full detail.

Three of your examples are the same sentence, and it describes a future event
Psalm 110 “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
Matthew 22:44
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET”’?
Acts 2:34-35**“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.”’

When Until is for a future event, we don’t know what happens next, it’s not clearly implied.
However, using my requested sentence structure does have clear implications:
**The boy sat at the table until he finished his homework. **
This is the requested equivalent sentence structure, and it clearly implies he left the table sometime after finishing his homework.

Now on to your remaining example
2 Samuel 6:23*: Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.
Using ‘until someone died’ is a very special usage and clearly indicates it never happened. It would support the PV story if scriptures read:
“How can this be, since I will be a virgin until I die?”
“he had no union with her until the day she died”

But they don’t read this, they say something that is not clear or explicit about her PV
Well said.

I think some of those you are communicating with are afraid that if they’re wrong that would undermine all they believe. It does NOT undermine the Gospel of Jesus Christ if Mary was not a perpetual virgin.
 
Your embarrassed for him???:ehh:

After your manufactured quote from wiki and your false definition, you should be embarrassed only for yourself.
Could you document with proof your accusation?
 
Here are three translations, two which use the term virgin

NAS : Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”
NIV : How will this be," Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
KJV : Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Now please apologize for your rash accusation :cool:
Here is the Greek word used
1097 ginosko {ghin-oce’-ko} a prolonged form of a primary verb; TDNT - 1:689,119; v 1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel 1a) to become known 2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of 2a) to understand 2b) to know 3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman 4) to become acquainted with, to know For Synonyms see entry 5825
 
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