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adrift
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I already did.
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Catholics and Non-Catholics: Do you believe in the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mother?
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elvisman
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Dokimas
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Did you see the examples used by the dictionary? It’s obvious from them that it is a common understanding when using ‘until’ that afterwards there is a change. Context, context, context tells use if a change is probable or not.I had to go back to see your definition. I didn’t see anyone blasting you. The definition you gave was the same that I have been giving. What your definition does not say is that it means a change takes place. This is what I am asking for. A definition that says that it means something happens afterward. Since the definition of until means up to a point which is what your definition said, it only refers to the time before Jesus was born not after. This is the definition that I am asking for one that supports your view. You have not given me that definition. The dispute with you is not a difference in opinion but that you have not provided a definition that supports your view.
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elvisman
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It ABSOLUTELY undermines the Gospel when you pervert the text.Well said.
I think some of those you are communicating with are afraid that if they’re wrong that would undermine all they believe. It does NOT undermine the Gospel of Jesus Christ if Mary was not a perpetual virgin.
That’s what Peter warned against (2 Peter 3:16).
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Dokimas
Guest
Thanks for your opinion.Because Gabriel didn’t tell her that she WAS pregnant. He told her that she was going to be pregnant.
Mary wasn**'t an idiot who didn’t understand that she could BECOME** pregnant after sleeping with Joseph. This is clear evidence that she had no intention of having sex.
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Todd520
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Elvis, . . . take deep breathes, . . . relax**Sorry, pal - **
YOU came to this discussion with a really bad understanding of linguistics - however, that is not my problem.
In the GREEK - which is what Luke was written in - Mary’s question is NOT stated the way you presented it. She never mentioned her virginity. she stated that she does not have sex with men - PERIOD.
IF she intended to have relations with Joseph, she would NOT have asked the question.
She said:
"How can this be, since I know not man (have no relations, don’t have sex)?"
I pulled the three translations from biblegateway.com
New American Standard
New International Version
King James Version
If you will only recognize the KJV or another, then be clear about it. I only performed cut and paste, no linguistic games.
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Dokimas
Guest
Which post? Could you give me the number?I already did.
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Dokimas
Guest
It is dangerous to pervert a text of God’s Word.It ABSOLUTELY undermines the Gospel when you pervert the text.
That’s what Peter warned against (2 Peter 3:16).
I’m sure you think there’s no chance you’ve got wrong understandings of what the Word of God means on any subject. Correct?
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Dokimas
Guest
[SIGN]Quote:Here is the Greek word used
Originally Posted by Todd520
Here are three translations, two which use the term virgin
NAS : Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”
NIV : How will this be," Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
KJV : Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Now please apologize for your rash accusation
Here is the Greek word used
Quote:
1097 ginosko {ghin-oce’-ko} a prolonged form of a primary verb; TDNT - 1:689,119; v 1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel 1a) to become known 2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of 2a) to understand 2b) to know 3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman 4) to become acquainted with, to know For Synonyms see entry 5825 [/SIGN]
Please spell out for me your point that you think contradicts Todd.
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Dokimas
Guest
What’s the definition of ‘virgin’?**Sorry, pal - **
YOU came to this discussion with a really bad understanding of linguistics - however, that is not my problem.
In the GREEK - which is what Luke was written in - Mary’s question is NOT stated the way you presented it. She never mentioned her virginity. she stated that she does not have sex with men - PERIOD.
IF she intended to have relations with Joseph, she would NOT have asked the question.
She said:
"How can this be, since I know not man (have no relations, don’t have sex)?"
The verb in question is in the present tense. Could you explain why you think the verb include the future?
Stephen168
New member
Are you of the opinion Mary was an idiot?Thanks for your opinion.
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elvisman
Guest
I AM relaxed. I learned a long time ago not to let people like you get me all worked up.Elvis, . . . take deep breathes, . . . relax
I pulled the three translations from biblegateway.com
New American Standard
New International Version
King James Version
If you will only recognize the KJV or another, then be clear about it. I only performed cut and paste, no linguistic games.
By, “people like you”, I mean those who can’t see something when t is staring them right in the face.
Regardless of what versions you pulled up - we must ALWAYS go back to the original GREEK when debating textual issues in the NT. And the plain fact is that you are dead wrong in this case . . .
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elvisman
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Nope.It is dangerous to pervert a text of God’s Word.
I’m sure you think there’s no chance you’ve got wrong understandings of what the Word of God means on any subject. Correct?
I get my understanding of Scripture from the one and only custodian of Scripture - the Catholic Church (2 Thess. 2:15, 1 Tim. 3:15, 6:20).
There is no acrobatic twisting - just a straight forward approach.
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Todd520
Guest
Adrift, so please be specific in your posts. I am reading you are unhappy with the translation as show in two modern bibles:Here is the Greek word used
New American Standard
New International Version
I did not know these versions were suspect and meant no harm in quoting them.
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elvisman
Guest
A virgin is one who has never had intercourse.What’s the definition of ‘virgin’?
The verb in question is in the present tense. Could you explain why you think the verb include the future?
BUT - that is not why Mary was puzzled. She KNEW she WAS a virgin - to that point.
What cause her confusion was that she was GOING to become pregnant - and she had no intention of having sex.
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elvisman
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No - he usually responds with that remark when he has nothing to add.Are you of the opinion Mary was an idiot?
This is what I’ve observed on numerous threads.
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Todd520
Guest
Elvis, I agree your story explains why Mary was puzzled.A virgin is one who has never had intercourse.
BUT - that is not why Mary was puzzled. She KNEW she WAS a virgin - to that point.
What cause her confusion was that she was GOING to become pregnant - and she had no intention of having sex.
I wish the scripture was clear ans specific since the subject is too important just to infer from mary being puzzled
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elvisman
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Thanks, but I disagree with you about it being unclear.Elvis, I agree your story explains why Mary was puzzled.
I wish the scripture was clear ans specific since the subject is too important just to infer from mary being puzzled
It is only unclear to the 21st century mind. This is why the Reformers - 500 years ago - had no problem with her perpetual virgininty.
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Todd520
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adrift, if you continue to make slanderous accusations I will report you.Your embarrassed for him???:ehh:
After your manufactured quote from wiki and your false definition, you should be embarrassed only for yourself.
My earlier quote in post #577 was pulled from this page and was pasted without modification:
Perpetual virginity of Mary
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adrift
Guest
Dokimas the dictionary uses examples to demonstrate their definitions. The definition does not state that there is a change afterward. No matter what example you use it does not change the standard definition. What you are doing is inventing a definition that is not the standard one. Context means nothing if you do not understand the standard meaning. You may not apply your understanding of a word and expect others to accept it. The translators of the bible did not intend to indicate anything after Jesus was born but only what occurred before Jesus was born.Did you see the examples used by the dictionary? It’s obvious from them that it is a common understanding when using ‘until’ that afterwards there is a change. Context, context, context tells use if a change is probable or not.
By defining the word, you come to understand that it only means before Jesus was born nothing after.
You will not find any dictionary that will define it any other way because that is what it means. Even your definition states that it only concerns a period of time up to an event.
Definition of UNTIL
: up to the time that : up to such time as
Examples of UNTIL
We played until it got dark.We played up to such time as it got dark
Keep going until I tell you to stop. Keep going up to such time as I tell you to stop
I ran until I was breathless. I ran up to such time as I was breathless
Stay here until the danger has passed. Stay here up to such time as the danger had passed
Stir the dough until it forms a ball." Stir the dough up to such time as it forms a ball
and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS. and knew her not up to such time as she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.
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