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Vile_Servant
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“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly.”I know of NO non-catholic Christian that think they can sin boldly. Point one out here on this forum and I’ll do my best to share lots of verses proving them wrong.
“No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”
- excerpts from a letter from Martin Luther, the Father of Protestantism, to Melanchthon; Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521, From the Wartburg (Segment) Translated by Erika Bullmann Flores from: Dr. Martin Luther’s Saemmtliche Schriften Dr, Johannes Georg Walch, Ed. (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.), Vol. 15,cols. 2585-2590.
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Dokimas
Guest
“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly.”
“No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”
- excerpts from a letter from Martin Luther, the Father of Protestantism, to Melanchthon; Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521, From the Wartburg (Segment) Translated by Erika Bullmann Flores from: Dr. Martin Luther’s Saemmtliche Schriften Dr, Johannes Georg Walch, Ed. (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.), Vol. 15,cols. 2585-2590.
Taking something out of context makes it imposible to comment upon. I will say, I only speak for myslef and those I directly know about.
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Vile_Servant
Guest
You can read the entire letter here; scrollpublishing.com/store/Luther-Sin-Boldly.htmlTaking something out of context makes it imposible to comment upon. I will say, I only speak for myslef and those I directly know about.
I will just quote the last paragraph from the letter;
"13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner. " - Martin Luther, 1521
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Dokimas
Guest
You can read the entire letter here; scrollpublishing.com/store/Luther-Sin-Boldly.html
I will just quote the last paragraph from the letter;
"13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner. " - Martin Luther, 1521
Looks very different in context, as I imagined. As I read the quote inside more context, I thought of Saul of Tarsus. He was a big sinner, as he said, and yet was freed from them as he became a Christian and trusted in Jesus. He became less and less a practicing sinner the more the strength of Jesus was manifest in his mortal body.
Another person I thought of was King David. How many times did he commit adultry? He murdered Urriah (even though he did not ‘pull the trigger’).
I’m not sure Mr Luther would deny Romans 6:1 ff, and as always, these are my opinions.
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Dokimas
Guest
You can read the entire letter here; scrollpublishing.com/store/Luther-Sin-Boldly.html
I will just quote the last paragraph from the letter;
"13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner. " - Martin Luther, 1521
BTW, thanx for the link and greater context.
No matter what Mr Luther actually meant, I’ve already answered with my opinion and my position Remember, I only and may I be more enfatic ONLY speak for myself on any issue I think I have understanding.
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Dokimas
Guest
Oh yes, what does the Bible say about David? He had a heart after God. Anyone want to argue against that fact?You can read the entire letter here; scrollpublishing.com/store/Luther-Sin-Boldly.html
I will just quote the last paragraph from the letter;
"13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner. " - Martin Luther, 1521
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Don’t you place the Bible as the only authority? Where is that written in scriptures?It is your responsibility as a Christian to leave a church that is not preaching the True Gospel as put forth in the Holy Bible.
And yes all are sinners!!
Don’t you interpret those scriptures for yourself? Where is that taught in scriptures?
You can’t say the Church doesn’t teach truth. How arrogant that is. That is the same as claiming your interpretation of scriptures is infallible above all others, including the Church that has existed since the beginning of Christ building His Church.
Was your bias showing when you bolded only half of that sentence? Are you aware of the context of this quote?You can read the entire letter here; scrollpublishing.com/store/Luther-Sin-Boldly.html
I will just quote the last paragraph from the letter;
"13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner. " - Martin Luther, 1521
ntrmin.org/Be%20a%20sinner%20and%20sin%20boldly%20web.htm#a2
Jon
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Dokimas
Guest
Interesting. Context, context, context.Was your bias showing when you bolded only half of that sentence? Are you aware of the context of this quote?
ntrmin.org/Be%20a%20sinner%20and%20sin%20boldly%20web.htm#a2
Jon
V
Vile_Servant
Guest
Jon,Was your bias showing when you bolded only half of that sentence? Are you aware of the context of this quote?
ntrmin.org/Be%20a%20sinner%20and%20sin%20boldly%20web.htm#a2
Jon
Thank you for the link. James Swan wrote; “Luther’s final exhortation in this letter is for Melanchthon to hold fast to the firm gospel of Jesus Christ. Whatever trouble may come, Melanchthon was to be true to the Gospel.” Where in the gospel of Jesus Christ does it exhort anyone to sin boldly and trust even more boldly in Christ? In fact, the opposite is true, the Gospel clearly condemns sin and exhorts all true followers of Christ to turn away from sin. The detailed analysis by Swan that follows fails to reconcile Luther’s words and exhortation with the truth of the Gospel.
The fact therefore remains that Luther did not say or mean anything contrary to what he wrote in this letter. His language is plain and clear: That you should sin boldly, as many times as you wish, even killing and committing adultery thousands of times a day, because you trust in Jesus Christ even more boldly to have paid for all your sins past present and future once and for all. Yes, Luther did want to make a strong point; that no bold sin is heinous enough not to be covered by the cloak of Jesus’ righteousness. This is the crux of Sola Fide.
Luther spelt out the protestant position very clearly in this letter as I see it. Unless you are now telling me that Protestants do not believe that Jesus had paid the price of ALL your sins past present and future, once and for all, and that all Protestants who believe in Christ are definitely saved.
I have posted the link to Luther’s letter in its entirety to Dokimas, with the quotes bolded to highlight to him where I had previously obtained them, to aid his understanding. Where is the bias?
P
peary
Guest
The question “What would Jesus do” is rather bogus, because you don’t KNOW what Jesus would have done in a situation. THAT is left to us in prayer with the Holy Spirit. And, for your information, and being a Catholic my whole life, I have never heard the Church call non-Catholic Christians “non-Christian.” I can see why you left the Church. You just don’t “get it.” Your comments are quite obvious in that regard.My experience of the Roman Catholic Church is that if you follow the dictates of the church hierarchy and don’t do things that organisation says you shouldn’t then you are acceptable and are on the way to a close relationship with God.
I don’t get it. You have it backwards. The Church firmly believes that it is the Church established on earth for the salvation of souls. Its teachings are based on the understanding of the Bible and how it has been applied for 2000 years in the lives of its members. God does NOT accept us unconditionally; WE have a discipline to follow if we are to be His disciples and He our God. You need to go back and read Scriptures in light of discipleship.
If the RCC teaching is truly that you want to spread Christ’s way of life to all other people, and that is implemented, then you will accept homosexuals, prostitutes, people whose faith journey asks questions which you don’t like, and those who don’t accept teachings based on the church’s tradition (rather than scripture).
The RCC DOES accept homosexuals (but rejects homosexual sex; why? It is not open to the creation of life); it accepts prostitutes (but not sex outside of marriage); people who ask questions CAN get answers (though maybe not what they were looking for); those who don’t accept Catholic teaching do not have to stay in the Church. They are free to leave and go somewhere else.
As an Anglo-Catholic my focus has always been what would Christ do/say in my situation. If you want to understand those who the RCC labels “non Christian” (including “Protestants” and “Orthodox”) you must make an effort to stand in their shoes.
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
Back to the OP, I believe some Protestants would argue that Catholicism creates a barrier between us and Jesus due our rules, perceived legalism and “traditions of men.” On the other hand, Catholics might argue that Protestants have never truly experience Jesus in the Eucharist due to apostolic succession.
Doctrinally, I believe we have a different view of man since in Catholicism, man is still good but still damaged but historically Protestant view man in bondage to sin. Since man and the effects of original sin are different, Jesus’ sacrifice and our justification is different but I wouldn’t say a traditional Protestant would deny that Jesus is God-man, Savior of all (unless you’re a Calvinist) but what separates us is His mother, possible brothers and justification.
Doctrinally, I believe we have a different view of man since in Catholicism, man is still good but still damaged but historically Protestant view man in bondage to sin. Since man and the effects of original sin are different, Jesus’ sacrifice and our justification is different but I wouldn’t say a traditional Protestant would deny that Jesus is God-man, Savior of all (unless you’re a Calvinist) but what separates us is His mother, possible brothers and justification.
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Primrose
Guest
I don’t know if this is the right place to state what I am watching. Firstly I will say that I have just celebrated my first anniversary of coming into full communion with the Catholic church. I am in England and grew up Anglican. Not Anglo catholic, just the liberal middle of the road anglican.
Last night I went to the Easter Vigil…I love it. And this morning I am sitting infront to of the telly, watching “He is Risen” (don’t get me started on the dumming down of the BBC, the can’t put Easter Eucharist because it might offend other faithgroups). It’s theAnglican Easter Eucharistic service in the Cathederal at Winchester. It’s being shown on BBC1.
I’m sitting here, and they’ve crossed themselves, sung the alleluia, used insence over the gospel and crossed their head, lips, chest. And even did the sign of the cross!!! I never saw this in the Anglican church I went to as a child? Is this Anglo-Catholic. It is sooo Catholic, nothing changed, apart from the belief of the true real presence. I am loving being Catholic and am even more stronger in my feeling that the Anglican church is so broad and whatever you want. I love the fact that if I go to France the service and readings will be the same, or any other country. But the Anglican church is different in every different church building!!! the Anglican church in my town is extremely liberal, and I could see the first gay marriage within the next 5 years. I am thanking God that He made it clear to me that he wanted me to be ROMAN CATHOLIC:thumbsup:
Last night I went to the Easter Vigil…I love it. And this morning I am sitting infront to of the telly, watching “He is Risen” (don’t get me started on the dumming down of the BBC, the can’t put Easter Eucharist because it might offend other faithgroups). It’s theAnglican Easter Eucharistic service in the Cathederal at Winchester. It’s being shown on BBC1.
I’m sitting here, and they’ve crossed themselves, sung the alleluia, used insence over the gospel and crossed their head, lips, chest. And even did the sign of the cross!!! I never saw this in the Anglican church I went to as a child? Is this Anglo-Catholic. It is sooo Catholic, nothing changed, apart from the belief of the true real presence. I am loving being Catholic and am even more stronger in my feeling that the Anglican church is so broad and whatever you want. I love the fact that if I go to France the service and readings will be the same, or any other country. But the Anglican church is different in every different church building!!! the Anglican church in my town is extremely liberal, and I could see the first gay marriage within the next 5 years. I am thanking God that He made it clear to me that he wanted me to be ROMAN CATHOLIC:thumbsup:
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