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twb1621
Guest
unfortunately I have seen it…
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Schluns
Guest
I have the tendency to agree with you. Extremely strong feelings on abortion such as this tend to be rooted in the individuals personal life and personal choices, choices that they have walked into on their own violation or have been thrust upon them. For these poor souls, to be pro-life is a condemnation of themselves. For being a part of such an act, or even a silent by-stander; they have justified their actions in such a way as to make them supporters of abortion, and therefore satisfy the crying out of their conscience. These souls need help in finding a way to forgive themselves and find their way back to the arms of our savior.
That and the fact that abortion is not an issue in light of abstinence. With abstinence there is no need for abortion, only counseling and some medical intervention in case of rape, ectopic pregnancy and the like (I don’t think that we need to go farther into this issue, please do not try to bait me).
Currently only one human being has walked this earth who can say that pregnancy resulted in spite of abstinence; and aren’t we glad she did not choose abortion?
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twb1621
Guest
No, I am not looking to bait you or anyone for that matter. Anyone who has intimately been involved with the act of abortion must be made aware that with sincerity of heart in repentance, no sin is stronger than the forgiveness and mercy of God. Those of us who are strong in the commitment against such violations of the love of God must make our devotion to the love and Truth that is our Lord a visible part of our life style so that others who may need to see Catholics true to their faith before gaining the strength themselves to make such a commitment have that support to stand with them. Sorry if that was a bit winded… Those who are repentant are surely forgiven with such a commitment as Jesus himself showed many times. We are never to hate the sinner but only the sin and none of us are without sin. Therefore, we are that support group but others must be able to see us just as is said in gospel, the Church must be visible.I have the tendency to agree with you. Extremely strong feelings on abortion such as this tend to be rooted in the individuals personal life and personal choices, choices that they have walked into on their own violation or have been thrust upon them. For these poor souls, to be pro-life is a condemnation of themselves. For being a part of such an act, or even a silent by-stander; they have justified their actions in such a way as to make them supporters of abortion, and therefore satisfy the crying out of their conscience. These souls need help in finding a way to forgive themselves and find their way back to the arms of our savior.
That and the fact that abortion is not an issue in light of abstinence. With abstinence there is no need for abortion, only counseling and some medical intervention in case of rape, ectopic pregnancy and the like (I don’t think that we need to go farther into this issue, please do not try to bait me).
Currently only one human being has walked this earth who can say that pregnancy resulted in spite of abstinence; and aren’t we glad she did not choose abortion?
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thistle
Guest
How do you know why such a person walked out? Did you talk to them afterwards and they told you the reasons or are you just making assumptions.
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twb1621
Guest
going by the looks of disgust, rolling of eyes and shaking of head during the homily and the fact that the person finally just got up before the homily was over and walked out of the Church, they were not shy of wanting their displeasure known . Of course it had to do with abortion and Obhama’s standing on the matter.
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Ockham
Guest
Getting up and walking out of church during a homily is one of the most disrespectful things I’ve heard of. If the person feels that strongly about abortion then hopefully they never come back to a Catholic Church. You can’t be a Catholic abortionist. If the loyalty to Obama is greater than the Church then we’re all better off without such members of the faithful.
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twb1621
Guest
I wonder if some of these people realize just what the choice is they are making…
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NFPgirl
Guest
I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to disagree with you on the Church being in personal politics. A well-informed conscience means that the Church should be a part of every part of our lives – including and especially politics.
As I said above, a well-formed conscience means that Church teaching goes everywhere in our lives. We, as Catholics, are to live our lives according to the Church’s teachings. If you (generic you, not you personally) don’t like it, no one is keeping you here.
I’m inclined to agree with the priest who told his parishioners that they needed to go to confession if they voted for Obama. I don’t believe there is any good reason that anyone who is a serious Catholic and truly seeks to follow what the Church teaches regarding abortion could have voted for Obama in good conscience and without committing a grave sin. Even if you disagreed with McCain’s stance on certain issues and couldn’t in good conscience vote for him either, there were other alternatives and one can also abstain from voting altogether if there is no acceptable candidate. To actively support a pro-abortion candidate and say that what s/he believes regarding abortion isn’t why you’re voting for him/her but you’re voting for him/her based on the other issues (I’ve heard this excuse from a number of Catholics who voted for Obama and even actively campaigned for him) is not a good enough reason to vote for a pro-abortion candidate. A lot of people will disagree with me, probably, but I’m just putting it like the Church puts it. Basically, if all the candidates are pro-abortion, THEN and ONLY THEN can you use other issues to decide your vote. Abortion is the issue that pretty much trumps all the other issues – war, the economy, education, health care, etc. Does it mean that every candidate who is anti-abortion is a viable candidate? No. It means that if there is one candidate who is pro-abortion and another who is anti-abortion, then you must use abortion as your determining factor for voting. This is what it means when people say that Catholics are not “one issue voters.” We ARE allowed to use other issues to determine who we vote for so long as the candidates among whom we’re choosing are all equal in their stance on abortion. Obama and McCain were NOT equal and Obama was not only pro-abortion but, IMHO, rabidly pro-abortion.
All of the above is why I agree with that priest w/regard to those who voted for Obama needing to go to confession. As for denying someone the Eucharist because he thinks they voted for Obama and haven’t been to confession, that’s another issue entirely.
You want to know one of the biggest reasons abortion happens? Because it is convenient. It is legal and available in most places in the US and not only that, it’s funded by the government to a certain extent. Planned Parenthood funds abortions quite a lot in this country and provides them in certain locations. If a woman gets pregnant and doesn’t want the baby, no problem! Get an abortion! The convenient accessibility of abortion also makes it easier for boyfriends, husbands, parents, and friends who think a woman doesn’t need a baby she’s carrying to pressure her into an abortion that she may not want.
The first step to reducing this kind of attitude is making it illegal. If abortion becomes illegal, it’s going to be a whole lot less convenient and accessible. Yes, there will still be those who perform them illegally, but I am convinced it will make people think twice about it. The second step is to make help available to women who find themselves pregnant and are unable to care for the baby themselves. Another step that works in conjunction with that second step is educating people about adoption and giving government funding towards that end. I have a feeling a lot more people would adopt if it were made more accessible monetarily speaking.
All of this is just my :twocents: and you may disagree, but that’s how I see it.
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Sheeniac
Guest
Unfortunately, I know several Catholic and non Catholics Christian women who are pro-choice. We are all in our early 40s/late 30s. All are weekly mass/service attenders.
However, we are from a “lost generation” born in the 60s. Please pray for my friends!
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Ockham
Guest
If they need a visual then there are pictures of abortion victims on many websites including abortion violence dot com. Operation rescue, Life news are other good resources.
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twb1621
Guest
You are absolutely on the target. The distance we Christians (I speak most directly regarding Catholics) grew away from our faith since the 1960’s is astronomical when you look back on it. It first began as a personal separation in the whole peace and love, sex, drugs and rock and roll mentality. Then it became complacency by many in standing back not wanting to openly get involved in fighting issues we didn’t necessarily support then further grew into a lack of moral limitations, enjoying the convenience of things such as artificial birth control over abstinence and such as that. Today many Christians of all denominations live as though it is more morally acceptable to have an abortion than to practice abstinence and many since it’s been legally recognized take abortion so lightly that they have multiple abortions yet fail to even practice birth control. Yet if we returned to our morality and defended our Christian teachings there is no politician in the country that would chance loosing re-election knowing the majority (which we are) would not support him or her. So it truly is our responsibility if we vote for them.
As far as the Church going beyond its authority to attempt to direct us morally, we are children of God first and foremost and we are NOT to be as the Pharisees and Sadducees or of this world as the Bible proclaims. To be otherwise and claim to be Catholic or Christian is arrogant, and a lack of knowledge and respect for the teachings of God.
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BillP
Guest
I’m afraid your reply indicates pretty clearly that you don’t understand my point. It had nothing to do with conscience. It had to do with people who attempt to misrepresent (at best) or lie (at worst) about Church teaching to try to force their personal beliefs on others and calling it Catholicism.
A perfect example is Fr Newman’s overreach in the wake of President Obama’s election. The current Pope has said:
So clearly it is possible that a well-informed Catholic could indeed have voted for Obama (and before him Kerry) without sinning if he or she did so for other reasons, reasons that the individual Catholic considered proportionate.
The Pope disagrees with both of you. It is not your place to tell other Catholics what they should and shouldn’t find to be proporotionate reasons. Just as it isn’t the pllace of others to dictate the terms of your personal conscience to you.
Furthermore, when Fr Newman claims his parishioners were in a state of mortal sin because they voted for Obama, he was in fact committing the sin of calumney
Similarly, your assertion:
is simply, incorrect. That is not what the Church teaches. Charity compels me to believe that you are simply misinformed. But it is a serious problem when people misrepresent (intentionally or unintentionally) the teaching of the Church to suit their own personal views and use that misrepresentation as a stick to accuse others of sin.
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You want to know one of the biggest reasons abortion happens? Because it is convenient. It is legal and available in most places in the US and not only that, it’s funded by the government to a certain extent. Planned Parenthood funds abortions quite a lot in this country and provides them in certain locations. If a woman gets pregnant and doesn’t want the baby, no problem! Get an abortion! The convenient accessibility of abortion also makes it easier for boyfriends, husbands, parents, and friends who think a woman doesn’t need a baby she’s carrying to pressure her into an abortion that she may not want.
If you really want to have this particular debate, kindly cite me some reliable references for your assertions and we can have a reasonable, rational debate from which we may both learn something.
My main point is about overzealous people who are either careless with their assertions (at best) or willingly lie to advance their personal belief systems (at worst), so not expect me to support abortion in the debate, but I do strongly believe in carefully researching and telling the truth about complex situations.
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Ockham
Guest
The truth is Obama was the most pro-abortion senator in history. It may have been the only legislation he didn’t vote “Present”. Any well informed voter should have known that. By lifting all requirements he is essentially condoning infanticide - state sanctioned murder- and anyone who voted for him has blood on their hands.
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LindaSK
Guest
I must agree with this. Obama made no secret as to his stand on abortion. Others were more inconsistent in their votes and in their rhetoric, but he left no margin to guess where his feelings lie. He was and continues to be very clearly pro-abortion. Nobody should act so surprised.
While the Church cannot tell people whom they should vote for, the Church is expected to present the truth. The Church clearly is pro-life and sees that as a priority, not just during elections, but in everyday living. It would seem to me that complacency in this and any other moral issue constitutes a sin of omission. “Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.”(Matthew 25:45) My conscience would not allow me to vote for Obama. But, if I just sit back and say it is not my fault, so I don’t need to do anything, I’m just as guilty as those who voted for him in the first place! So, I send letters and emails to Representatives and the President, write Letters to the Editor of our local paper, post pro-life literature and bumper stickers and talk with people, and support our local center providing abortion alternatives. And I pray a lot. I’m not writing this to brag. I just get tired of people who complain, but don’t do anything constructive. I really get frustrated with those who see abortion as somebody else’s issue, especially good ‘Christians.’ How can we get people to put themselves in the place of a baby who is about to be killed by abortion? (I could mention other situations such as child and spousal abuse, individuals killed or injured by drunk drivers, etc., but they are not the subject here.) What happened to the Golden Rule? What happened to the commandment given by Christ at the Last Supper?
This season of Lent seems to be a good time to remember these teachings and obligations of the Church - yes, each one of us is part of the body of Christ. Thankfully, our priest is targeting many of these fundamentals. So far, I haven’t seen anyone walk out! Father even has slips of paper with acts to perform that he hands out to everyone each Sunday of Lent after Mass - for example: speak to someone of the Faith, pray for those who are hurting, call shut-ins, tell family members you love them, do an act of kindness for a neighbor without being asked and without their knowledge, etc. He is trying to encourage us to be active rather than passive.
Let us all go do something positive and not just expect the other guy to do it! BE the ‘other guy!’
God bless
J
Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
You want to know one of the biggest reasons abortion happens? Because it is convenient. It is legal and available in most places in the US and not only that, it’s funded by the government to a certain extent. Planned Parenthood funds abortions quite a lot in this country and provides them in certain locations. If a woman gets pregnant and doesn’t want the baby, no problem! Get an abortion! The convenient accessibility of abortion also makes it easier for boyfriends, husbands, parents, and friends who think a woman doesn’t need a baby she’s carrying to pressure her into an abortion that she may not want.
If you really want to have this particular debate, kindly cite me some reliable references for your assertions and we can have a reasonable, rational debate from which we may both learn something.
My main point is about overzealous people who are either careless with their assertions (at best) or willingly lie to advance their personal belief systems (at worst), so not expect me to support abortion in the debate, but I do strongly believe in carefully researching and telling the truth about complex situations.
Actually, the pope disagrees with you. You have very outdated information. There was a whole slew of much newer words from the Vatican and the USCCB during the presidential campaign about abortion being the issue that trumps all other issues.
Many “Catholics” who wanted to support Obama took things from the Vatican and the USCCB totally out of context, and left half of the message out. Then you claim that we are the ignorant ones.
Do you honestly believe that Jesus believes it is more important to vote for someone as radically pro abortion as Obama’s record proves him to be, simply because he CLAIMS to care about feeding the poor…which again, his record has shown he cares nothing about?
Do you believe that God has so little regard for human life?
One of the Ten Commandments says “Thou shalt not kill”
None of the Commandments says “Thou shalt not be hungry”
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sawman
Guest
Dear Bill P.
You are wrong in your assertions about Catholic Teaching, the authority of the Church, and in the primacy of your judgement over that of the Majesterium. I’ll not quote or cite any documents because it is too tedius. your argumrnts are not credible, and have every scent of political prevarication typical of the Democrat party. Your statements are in most cases talking points from the democratic machine. I consider any attempt to persuade someone to vote for the death party, objectionable. I hope that you are able to wise up soon. Your soul is at stake.
Tom
You are wrong in your assertions about Catholic Teaching, the authority of the Church, and in the primacy of your judgement over that of the Majesterium. I’ll not quote or cite any documents because it is too tedius. your argumrnts are not credible, and have every scent of political prevarication typical of the Democrat party. Your statements are in most cases talking points from the democratic machine. I consider any attempt to persuade someone to vote for the death party, objectionable. I hope that you are able to wise up soon. Your soul is at stake.
Tom
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fix
Guest
Those proportionate reasons must be objective, not subjective. The Pope did not say we each get to come up with private rationalizations. He was simply restating traditional moral theology.
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BillP
Guest
“proportionate reasons” cannot possibly be objective. Do you really not think (then) Cardinal Ratzinger was incapable of saying “No Catholic can vote for a pro-choice politician if a pro-life one in running”? If that is what he meant, if that was Catholic teaching, that’s what he would have said, don’t you think?
But he didn’t say that. Furthermore, people who insist that that’s actually what he meant have just entered the “cafeteria”. Those people are trying to warp the Church’s actual teaching to fit better with their world view.
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Ockham
Guest
This isn’t a grey area. Obama made his pro-abortion position quite well known. He said the first thing he’d do as president is sign the FOCA. He doesn’t even believe in medical treatment to survivors of abortion. The man is evil and if you voted for him then you’ve assisted a mass murderer.
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Ockham
Guest
“Canon law is clear. Supporting so-called abortion rights is intrinsically evil, and obstinate persistence in grave, manifest sin requires denial of Holy Communion. For pro-abortion public figures to be allowed to receive Holy Communion is a huge scandal. How many people have taken this as a form of silent consent?”
Michael Hichborn, American Life League.
Michael Hichborn, American Life League.
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