"Catholics" and the right to choose?

[mapleoak]

God has given us each a life to live.

And none of us has the right to take that life away from someone.

We are to be God’s hands and heart here on earth, instruments of His peace and love. He didn’t put us here to lambast one another and make the lives of other people’s already difficult lives more difficult.

We were not put here justify why it should be legal for people to choose to kill one another. We have an obligation to protect those ‘least among us’ who are helpless against those who take advantage of their helplessness.

 

[mapleoak]

a) Did someone on this thread claim that some individuals are less culpable before God than others? Where?

Whether someone said it or not, yes it is true. Some, are less culpable for their actions. This does not in any way reduce the gravity of abortion or make it ever anything less than an intrinsic evil always contrary to natural law. Each and every unborn child that is put to death cries out to God for justice, whether put to death through ignorance or maliciousness. It is a duty of the government to protect its people.

 

[mapleoak]

Intrinscially bad acts do not become acceptable because someone is less culpable before God. It seems a hard concept grasp in our culture which is so very confused about free will, rights, and the role of the state.

I didn’t see this before I made my last post. You said it better than I did.

 

[limerick]

Yes**,** we can abuse free will by choosing evil. Such an abuse is does not mean it must be legal in each circumstance. It simply means that we have the power to abuse freedom.

The problem is that some abuse of freedom is so wrong that the civil law must not support it. That is not a novel concept. We have such laws regarding rape and arson and DWI. Are you supporting any of those as simply a choice?

When it comes to the right to life, no one’s "choice " should be allowed that includes killing another. Again, not that hard a concept.

**I have not made any connection between the exercise of free will and the limits of the law. Whether a sin is committed within or outside the boundaries of the law is immaterial to me. Events will transpire in the wake of the sin, and the sinner will eventually have to pay for his or her transgression, some in this life perhaps, and certainly in the next. Yes, we all have the power to abuse freedom, but one man’s abuse is another’s survival. The question always arises, is there an objective truth and reality, or are some of us making it up as we go along? I have strong relativist leanings, so I don’t think you and I will ever come to terms on most of these kinds of discussions. In the end, though, I do believe we are individually responsible and accountable for our own actions; but I do not believe we are collectively guilty for another’s poor choice, impulsive behavior, carelessness, or any other sin.

Rape, arson and DWI are all nothing more than a choice. A person decides to behave in a particular way and carries out the deed with either no earthly consequences or with some punishment deemed appropriate by a jury or a judge. They may be poor choices, but they are choices nonetheless. I do not support any of these activities (although I spent 18 years drunk behind the wheel of one vehicle or another). They are insupportable as sane, productive, life-enhancing choices, but they are choices. And again, in the end, God will render the only true judgment.

I don’t believe these are difficult concepts, either.

Limerick **

 

[pismopal]

No-one should try to score points by walking out of Mass to empasise their point of view, regardless of whether or not they agree with the celebrant or his Homily.
We come to Mass to express our love for, and adoration of our Creator, and his Son, our Redeemer.

You should not play political football with God!!

On the question of being pro-choice, all people - and that includes Catholics - are pro-choice in all their acts.

Like our forbears, Adam and Eve, we choose whether or not to love, trust, adore and obey God. If we believe that God created all, and that Jesus became incarnate in the womb of his mother, we would not wish to be ungrateful for the gifts of God by aborting what he has created.

We perhaps should have charity ; pray for women who have abortions; for their babies; and for those people who reject God to his face by walking out of Mass.

Pro - choice ultimately means not just abortion or women’s rights. It means choosing God for all eternity. Unfortunately, today, as in the time before the coming of Christ, many people have chose to ignore God. His Son Our Lord was pro choice - he came to redeem us and to give us the means to exercise our choice to go back to him.

God bless
Libbybe

If you can stop the word games and say whether you are for or against allowing all children to be born without assault?

 

[limerick]

Whether someone said it or not, yes it is true. Some, are less culpable for their actions. This does not in any way reduce the gravity of abortion or make it ever anything less than an intrinsic evil always contrary to natural law. Each and every unborn child that is put to death cries out to God for justice, whether put to death through ignorance or maliciousness. It is a duty of the government to protect its people.

**
How is it true that some people are less culpable for their actions? I don’t mean with regard to the degree of sin committed, but rather that God’s standard of judgment might vary from one individual to another. That smacks of favoritism, nepotism, glad-handing, whatever you want to call it - in other words, politics. So, what do we tell the innocent little children? "God loves each of you, some more than others … " or "Bobby and Tommy got caught stealing candy. Because Tommy’s uncle is a priest, he only has to say one Hail Mary. Bobby, your penance will be three Our Fathers, three Hail Marys, two Hail Holy Queens, … "

Some are more equal than others, you say?

Limerick **

 

[elts1956]

“Not everything we read here is from God”. I couldn’t agree more. God has given us each a life to live. We are to be God’s hands and heart here on earth, instruments of His peace and love. He didn’t put us here to lambast one another and make the lives of other people’s already difficult lives more difficult.

No, I’m not referring only to the pro-life issue – I hope I won’t get a reprimand from the powers-that-be here, but – don’t I detect a kind of smugness and lack of humility running through this particular thread?

Alisa

Alisa, perhaps what you interpret as smugness, or lack of humility is confidence. Most on here are aware of, understand and follow the teachings of the Church. This is because their catechesis was solid, taught by clergy who are also solid in their knowledge of what the Church teaches.

 

[Alisa]

Elts, your posts are always respectful and rational; thank you.

I believe I’ll unsubscribe to this particular thread now.

Alisa

 

[elts1956]

QUOTE=limerick;5182911]**
How is it true that some people are less culpable for their actions? Could be the act was commited because of:

1. lack of knowledge.
2. forced to do an act ie. a minor forced by a parent to have an abortion
3. an adult forced to have an abortion by husband, boyfriend and she thinks she can’t live without either or.

I don’t mean with regard to the degree of sin committed, but rather that God’s standard of judgment might vary from one individual to another. That smacks of favoritism, nepotism, glad-handing, whatever you want to call it - in other words, politics.
It’s not politics. It’s called justice. Which would be the worse act? Missing Mass, or killing someone with full knowledge of what you are doing? Only God knows, but this is called Moral theology and to understand some of its teachings would take a study of a life time…

So, what do we tell the innocent little children? "God loves each of you, some more than others … " or "Bobby and Tommy got caught stealing candy. Because Tommy’s uncle is a priest, he only has to say one Hail Mary. Bobby, your penance will be three Our Fathers, three Hail Marys, two Hail Holy Queens, … " So you see, even priests sin and make mistakes. They are human. They are not God. So would Tommy be absolved of his sin of stealing even though he received the lesser Penance. Of course. The priest has the power to forgive sins and he did so.
Some are more equal than others, you say?
Limerick **

 

[elts1956]

**
How is it true that some people are less culpable for their actions? I don’t mean with regard to the degree of sin committed, but rather that God’s standard of judgment might vary from one individual to another. That smacks of favoritism, nepotism, glad-handing, whatever you want to call it - in other words, politics. So, what do we tell the innocent little children? "God loves each of you, some more than others … " or "Bobby and Tommy got caught stealing candy. Because Tommy’s uncle is a priest, he only has to say one Hail Mary. Bobby, your penance will be three Our Fathers, three Hail Marys, two Hail Holy Queens, … "

Some are more equal than others, you say?

Limerick **

**I have not made any connection between the exercise of free will and the limits of the law. Whether a sin is committed within or outside the boundaries of the law is immaterial to me. Events will transpire in the wake of the sin, and the sinner will eventually have to pay for his or her transgression, some in this life perhaps, and certainly in the next. Yes, we all have the power to abuse freedom, but one man’s abuse is another’s survival. The question always arises, is there an objective truth and reality, or are some of us making it up as we go along? I have strong relativist leanings, so I don’t think you and I will ever come to terms on most of these kinds of discussions. In the end, though, I do believe we are individually responsible and accountable for our own actions; but I do not believe we are collectively guilty for another’s poor choice, impulsive behavior, carelessness, or any other sin.

Rape, arson and DWI are all nothing more than a choice. A person decides to behave in a particular way and carries out the deed with either no earthly consequences or with some punishment deemed appropriate by a jury or a judge. They may be poor choices, but they are choices nonetheless. I do not support any of these activities (although I spent 18 years drunk behind the wheel of one vehicle or another). They are insupportable as sane, productive, life-enhancing choices, but they are choices. And again, in the end, God will render the only true judgment.

I don’t believe these are difficult concepts, either.

Limerick **

although I spent 18 years drunk behind the wheel of one vehicle or another. So do you consider that this was your free choice, with full knowledge and understanding, or was it because of a medical condition called addiction? Were you more/as culpable than another person who decided to drive a car although they had never set foot in one before?

One man’s abuse is another’s survival? Are we talking physical, or spiritual survival? Which is more important to you?
but I do not believe we are collectively guilty for another’s poor choice, impulsive behavior, carelessness, or any other sin
Collectively guilty? Of course not, but we have the responsibility of caring for one another.
If we don’t do so, then we are guilty of sins of omission.

 

[savienu]

**
How is it true that some people are less culpable for their actions? I don’t mean with regard to the degree of sin committed, but rather that God’s standard of judgment might vary from one individual to another. That smacks of favoritism, nepotism, glad-handing, whatever you want to call it - in other words, politics. So, what do we tell the innocent little children? "God loves each of you, some more than others … " or "Bobby and Tommy got caught stealing candy. Because Tommy’s uncle is a priest, he only has to say one Hail Mary. Bobby, your penance will be three Our Fathers, three Hail Marys, two Hail Holy Queens, … "

Some are more equal than others, you say?

Limerick **

No, culpability has to do with what you know. If you commit a grave sin, but don’t know it’s a grave sin, then you don’t have the same responsibility for that action as someone who knows its a grave sin and freely chooses to do it anyway. Or if you are forced to commit a grave sin by someone else, but you don’t feel choose it, your culpability is lessened. The act itself is still just a grave an action, but the person who is ignorant of the truth will not be held to the same standards as the one who KNOWS the truth.

“For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required.” – Luke 12:48

P.S.- My source from my other thread was the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Sorry I didn’t make that more clear.

 

[fix]

I have not made any connection between the exercise of free will and the limits of the law. Whether a sin is committed within or outside the boundaries of the law is immaterial to me. Events will transpire in the wake of the sin, and the sinner will eventually have to pay for his or her transgression, some in this life perhaps, and certainly in the next.

It is not only about what the consequences are to our relationship with God, but it is about protecting those who need protection.

**

Yes, we all have the power to abuse freedom, but one man’s abuse is another’s survival.

**

---

Survival is fine. Killing someone else is another matter altogether.

**

The question always arises, is there an objective truth and reality, or are some of us making it up as we go along? I have strong relativist leanings, so I don’t think you and I will ever come to terms on most of these kinds of discussions. In the end, though, I do believe we are individually responsible and accountable for our own actions; but I do not believe we are collectively guilty for another’s poor choice, impulsive behavior, carelessness, or any other sin.

**
We are if we do nothing to help or participate in another’s bad acts.

**

Rape, arson and DWI are all nothing more than a choice. A person decides to behave in a particular way and carries out the deed with either no earthly consequences or with some punishment deemed appropriate by a jury or a judge. They may be poor choices, but they are choices nonetheless. I do not support any of these activities (although I spent 18 years drunk behind the wheel of one vehicle or another). They are insupportable as sane, productive, life-enhancing choices, but they are choices. And again, in the end, God will render the only true judgment.

**
But, it is not only the relationship between God and the actor. There is other innocent life involved. That is why society has laws.

 

[limerick]

quote=limerick;5182911]**
how is it true that some people are less culpable for their actions? could be the act was commited because of:

1. Lack of knowledge.
2. Forced to do an act ie. A minor forced by a parent to have an abortion
3. An adult forced to have an abortion by husband, boyfriend and she thinks she can’t live without either or.

So poor catechesis, or my parents’ sin of omission by failing to model a healthy marriage, might decrease my culpability for sins committed and also reduce my time in purgatory?**

i don’t mean with regard to the degree of sin committed, but rather that god’s standard of judgment might vary from one individual to another. That smacks of favoritism, nepotism, glad-handing, whatever you want to call it - in other words, politics.
it’s not politics. It’s called justice. Which would be the worse act? Missing mass, or killing someone with full knowledge of what you are doing? Only god knows, but this is called moral theology and to understand some of its teachings would take a study of a life time… I was referring to two individuals having committed the same sin - you are saying they are not equally culpable? This is a complete easy-street set up for anyone to bounce back to blaming their sins on others. What about absolute personal accountability?

So, what do we tell the innocent little children? "God loves each of you, some more than others … " or "Bobby and Tommy got caught stealing candy. Because Tommy’s uncle is a priest, he only has to say one Hail Mary. Bobby, your penance will be three Our Fathers, three Hail Marys, two Hail Holy Queens, … " So you see, even priests sin and make mistakes. They are human. They are not God. So would Tommy be absolved of his sin of stealing even though he received the lesser penance. Of course. The priest has the power to forgive sins and he did so. So both kids are absolved of their sins - who does more time in purgatory?
**Some are more equal than others, you say?
Limerick **

 

[limerick]

although I spent 18 years drunk behind the wheel of one vehicle or another. So do you consider that this was your free choice, with full knowledge and understanding, or was it because of a medical condition called addiction? Were you more/as culpable than another person who decided to drive a car although they had never set foot in one before? It was a choice until it became an active addiction. I am still accountable for any sin committed under the influence.

One man’s abuse is another’s survival? Are we talking physical, or spiritual survival? Which is more important to you? In a state of panic I believe most individuals will opt for the solution to the immediate problem and consider in depth the spiritual repercussions after the fact. They are equally important to me, though I cannot predict how I will respond or react in any situation of crisis. I would like to think my faith in God is stronger than my self-centered desire for calm and comfort, but I don’t know that for sure.
but I do not believe we are collectively guilty for another’s poor choice, impulsive behavior, carelessness, or any other sin
Collectively guilty? Of course not, but we have the responsibility of caring for one another.
If we don’t do so, then we are guilty of sins of omission. ** There are cases when I actively choose the sin of omission over caring for a tyrant or rapist or thief or any other person who chooses to harm me or those I care about.

Limerick**

 

[mapleoak]

So poor catechesis, or my parents’ sin of omission by failing to model a healthy marriage, might decrease my culpability for sins committed and also reduce my time in purgatory?

Most Certainly. In fact those who have proper knowledge and continue to do wrong in spite of, have much more to answer for. To whom much has been given, much will be expected. As Catholics, for example, we are much more accountable for the wrongs we commit than is someone who through no fault of their own, had not the privilege of being brought up in the Catholic Church. We have the advantage of the seven sacraments and the guidance of the Church which possesses the fullness of the truth.
Invincible ignorance is one such thing which reduces personal accountability. Those who are shown the truth, but choose to remain obstinate, likewise, have much more to be accountable for. This is also true for those who choose not to seek the truth, but rather choose to remain ignorant. Once the truth has been revealed to us and we find it at odds with our conscience, we have a duty to embrace the truth and correct our conscience as well as seek understanding.

 

[limerick]

mapleoak:
Most Certainly. In fact those who have proper knowledge and continue to do wrong in spite of, have much more to answer for. To whom much has been given, much will be expected. As Catholics, for example, we are much more accountable for the wrongs we commit than is someone who through no fault of their own, had no** the privilege of being brought up in the Catholic Church.** We have the advantage of the seven sacraments and the guidance of the Church which possesses the fullness of the truth.
Invincible ignorance is one such thing which reduces personal accountability. Those who are shown the truth, but choose to remain obstinate, likewise, have much more to be accountable for. This is also true for those who choose not to seek the truth, but rather choose to remain ignorant. Once the truth has been revealed to us and we find it at odds with our conscience, we have a duty to embrace the truth and correct our conscience as well as seek understanding.

It seems, then, that those who were brought up in the Catholic Church are at a distinct disadvantage where the afterlife is concerned. I would think that this “fact” would give millions of non-Catholics immeasurable relief to have had the dumb luck of being born and raised Protestant or Jewish or Hindu or another faith.

Limerick

 

[savienu]

It seems, then, that those who were brought up in the Catholic Church are at a distinct disadvantage where the afterlife is concerned. I would think that this “fact” would give millions of non-Catholics immeasurable relief to have had the dumb luck of being born and raised Protestant or Jewish or Hindu or another faith.

Limerick

Not really. Ignorance is not necessarily bliss. And those of other faiths are denied the sacraments, which we are know are efficacious and necessary for our salvation.

 

[mapleoak]

It seems, then, that those who were brought up in the Catholic Church are at a distinct disadvantage where the afterlife is concerned.
Limerick

Not at all. In fact Christ specifically instituted the Church as an aid to its members and are given every help they need to gain salvation. It is of course all the more tragic, when in spite of all of these blessings, we go astray.

**

I would think that this “fact” would give millions of non-Catholics immeasurable relief to have had the dumb luck of being born and raised Protestant or Jewish or Hindu or another faith.

**
It is as mentioned earlier about invincible ignorance and obstinence in choosing to remain ignorant. One cannot become aware of the truths of the Catholic faith and simply sigh relief that one is not Catholic and therefore not be bound by its teachings. The immeasurable relief comes from having been born without the Catholic faith and then being privileged and inspired by the Holy Spirit to find it.

 

[limerick]

Not really. Ignorance is not necessarily bliss. And those of other faiths are denied the sacraments, which we are know are efficacious and necessary for our salvation.

**
So now are we back to the concern that Protestants, etc. face an afterlife only on the fringes of God’s heavenly home because they do not subscribe to your “Truth”? Are you saying that those of other faiths will not be entitled to salvation?

And what would make you say that ignorance is not necessarily bliss? Is bliss not relative, either?

Limerick**

 

[limerick]

Not at all. In fact Christ specifically instituted the Church as an aid to its members and are given every help they need to gain salvation. It is of course all the more tragic, when in spite of all of these blessings, we go astray.

**
**It is as mentioned earlier about invincible ignorance and obstinence in choosing to remain ignorant. One cannot become aware of the truths of the Catholic faith and simply sigh relief that one is not Catholic and therefore not be bound by its teachings. The immeasurable relief comes from having been born without the Catholic faith and then being privileged and inspired by the Holy Spirit to find it.

**You are actually saying that if I tell a young Jew about the existence of Purgatory, this revelation then binds him by this teaching? This is the height of arrogance.

“The immeasurable relief comes from having been born without the Catholic faith and then being privileged and inspired by the Holy Spirit to find it.”** This is your feeling, your belief. Again, arrogance. Unbelievable.

Limerick