"Catholics" and the right to choose?

[Fiyero3305]

The general understanding, just from listening to Jesus’ teachings, is that yes, a faith in Him is necessary for salvation. The Church has come to the position, after years of rumination, that those who are uninformed of His teachings through no fault of their own are logically not responsible for living the faith, but that any to whom the Truth has been revealed are responsible for living the faith.

 

[savienu]

**You are actually saying that if I tell a young Jew about the existence of Purgatory, this revelation then binds him by this teaching? This is the height of arrogance.

“The immeasurable relief comes from having been born without the Catholic faith and then being privileged and inspired by the Holy Spirit to find it.”** This is your feeling, your belief. Again, arrogance. Unbelievable.

Limerick

Proclaiming the Truth is not arrogant. It is also not relative. Truth is truth, regardless of whether people choose to believe it or not.

 

[elts1956]

limerick:
I said NOTHING about equality. I am talking Justice and God is the final judge of what is right and what is wrong. In Pope John Paul II’s encyclical Evangelium Vitae, he states that women having abortions are guilty of the magnitude of their sin according to their culpability. ie. there is a great difference between a woman who freely, knowingly and selfishly chooses to get an abortion and that woman who has an abortion under duress.

But abortion is an Intrinsic evil and both will have to take responsibilty for their actions, willingly, or unwillingly.

As far as the two kids and how much time they spend in Purgatory, again that depends on their “culpability”, but I would imagine that Uncle Priest MAY be spending a few extra minutes there. He is the one who made a subjective decision which is sinful in regard to confession, or any other Sacrament.

 

[elts1956]

limerick:

**You are actually saying that if I tell a young Jew about the existence of Purgatory, this revelation then binds him by this teaching? This is the height of arrogance.

“The immeasurable relief comes from having been born without the Catholic faith and then being privileged and inspired by the Holy Spirit to find it.”** This is your feeling, your belief. Again, arrogance. Unbelievable.

Limerick

The “binding” part comes from the Church, not you. I would say IF the young man studies the Catholic Faith and here again, culpability comes to play, he, for whatever reason, chooses not to pursue it, God will be His judge. We cannot.

Also, again, in Evangelium Vitae, Pope John Paul II stated the Jews have a “special relationship” with God and it is not for us to judge whether he, or anyone else for that matter, will be saved.

 

[elts1956]

The general understanding, just from listening to Jesus’ teachings, is that yes, a faith in Him is necessary for salvation. The Church has come to the position, after years of rumination, that those who are uninformed of His teachings through no fault of their own are logically not responsible for living the faith, but that any to whom the Truth has been revealed are responsible for living the faith.

To me, the word “revealed” means “knowing” with your whole heart and soul.

 

[Fiyero3305]

I don’t really understand your point, elts?

 

[elts1956]

The general understanding, just from listening to Jesus’ teachings, is that yes, a faith in Him is necessary for salvation. The Church has come to the position, after years of rumination, that those who are uninformed of His teachings through no fault of their own are logically not responsible for living the faith, but that any to whom the Truth has been revealed are responsible for living the faith.

It seems, then, that those who were brought up in the Catholic Church are at a distinct disadvantage where the afterlife is concerned. I would think that this “fact” would give millions of non-Catholics immeasurable relief to have had the dumb luck of being born and raised Protestant or Jewish or Hindu or another faith.

Limerick

They are still “culpable”. Depending on “culpability” Protestents are held just as accountable as Catholics for their sins. Are you getting sick of that word, “culpable”? What a word.

 

[Fiyero3305]

Ok, thank you, I think I understand now.

 

[limerick]

The general understanding, just from listening to Jesus’ teachings, is that yes, a faith in Him is necessary for salvation. The Church has come to the position, after years of rumination, that those who are uninformed of His teachings through no fault of their own are logically not responsible for living the faith, but that any to whom the Truth has been revealed are responsible for living the faith.

**
A Protestant has faith in Jesus, and hence qualifies for salvation. As most have not been exposed to Catholic doctrine and dogma, it appears then that you are saying they can get to heaven by being devout Lutherans or Methodists or Baptists. A case for Catholics to raise their children in another faith so they can gain access the easy way, no?

What, then, of the others, the non-Christians? Are they disqualified from an afterlife in the presence of God just because they do not believe in Jesus?

Limerick**

 

[limerick]

Proclaiming the Truth is not arrogant. It is also not relative. Truth is truth, regardless of whether people choose to believe it or not.

**Again, you misread. I said that finding Catholicism, and considering that a “privilege”, is only a matter of opinion.

Limerick**

 

[limerick]

elts1956:
I said NOTHING about equality. I am talking Justice and God is the final judge of what is right and what is wrong. In Pope John Paul II’s encyclical Evangelium Vitae, he states that women having abortions are guilty of the magnitude of their sin according to their culpability. ie. there is a great difference between a woman who freely, knowingly and selfishly chooses to get an abortion and that woman who has an abortion under duress.

But abortion is an Intrinsic evil and both will have to take responsibilty for their actions, willingly, or unwillingly.

As far as the two kids and how much time they spend in Purgatory, again that depends on their “culpability”, but I would imagine that Uncle Priest MAY be spending a few extra minutes there. He is the one who made a subjective decision which is sinful in regard to confession, or any other Sacrament.

**What is it you are responding to? There’s nothing in the quote box.

Limerick**

 

[Fiyero3305]

**
A Protestant has faith in Jesus, and hence qualifies for salvation. As most have not been exposed to Catholic doctrine and dogma, it appears then that you are saying they can get to heaven by being devout Lutherans or Methodists or Baptists. A case for Catholics to raise their children in another faith so they can gain access the easy way, no?

What, then, of the others, the non-Christians? Are they disqualified from an afterlife in the presence of God just because they do not believe in Jesus?

Limerick**

Like I said, if they have no exposure to the Catholic faith through no fault of their own, the Church, as I understand it, does not believe that they will be excluded from salvation by simple bad luck of not being exposed to the Truth.

Most Protestants have been exposed to the Catholic faith though, so I don’t know where you got the idea that they haven’t.

 

[limerick]

elts1956:
I said NOTHING about equality. I am talking Justice and God is the final judge of what is right and what is wrong. In Pope John Paul II’s encyclical Evangelium Vitae, he states that women having abortions are guilty of the magnitude of their sin according to their culpability. ie. there is a great difference between a woman who freely, knowingly and selfishly chooses to get an abortion and that woman who has an abortion under duress.

But abortion is an Intrinsic evil and both will have to take responsibilty for their actions, willingly, or unwillingly.

As far as the two kids and how much time they spend in Purgatory, again that depends on their “culpability”, but I would imagine that Uncle Priest MAY be spending a few extra minutes there. He is the one who made a subjective decision which is sinful in regard to confession, or any other Sacrament.

**A woman having an abortion and not doing so under duress is a classic, 24K gold oxymoron.

Limerick**

 

[Alisa]

Well, Limerick, probably in most cases you’re right. But I personally have known a couple women who treated abortion like a kind of birth control, and for more of convenience’ sake. But on the other hand, I’ve never been in an abortion clinic, so maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Alisa

 

[limerick]

Well, Limerick, probably in most cases you’re right. But I personally have known a couple women who treated abortion like a kind of birth control, and for more of convenience’ sake. But on the other hand, I’ve never been in an abortion clinic, so maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Alisa

**You do know what you’re talking about and it’s not that uncommon. But I believe underneath all their insouciance, these girls and women are afraid and lonely and wish they could be anywhere other than on that table.

Limerick**

 

[limerick]

Like I said, if they have no exposure to the Catholic faith through no fault of their own, the Church, as I understand it, does not believe that they will be excluded from salvation by simple bad luck of not being exposed to the Truth.

Most Protestants have been exposed to the Catholic faith though, so I don’t know where you got the idea that they haven’t.

**Casual exposure to doctrine is not dedicated study. So which is it? Which requires the formerly uninitiated to make a major lifestyle change and follow Catholicism?

Limerick**

 

[Alisa]

You’re probably right about the show of bravado on the part of a lot of the women!

I’ve also known a person or two who had an abortion (just one) and never got over it, to this day.

Alisa

 

[Holly3278]

Catholics who reject the sanctity of life and believe in the so called “right to choose” are cafeteria “Catholics” and should be excommunicated in my opinion. And no, this is not vengeance. It is to save their souls from damnation.

 

[Alisa]

Holly, that was a pretty extreme comment about excommunication. Remember, these choices are God’s to make.

 

[limerick]

Catholics who reject the sanctity of life and believe in the so called “right to choose” are cafeteria “Catholics” and should be excommunicated in my opinion. And no, this is not vengeance. It is to save their souls from damnation.

**But an excommunicated Catholic would likely have been saturated with Catholic doctrine and therefore still Catholic even after excommunication, right? So probably nothing could save their souls from damnation.

Anybody?

Limerick**