Catholics are ceding too much ground to the homosexual agenda

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Just as someone who may be tempted to steal but has no intention and did not carry out the act wouldn’t have to come out and announce that they were tempted.
They would not have to; they could.
“Coming out” signifies that you are openly gay, which means you also live the “gay lifestyle”, implying you are sexually active.
That does not follow at all. “Coming out” signifies that you are openly gay, i.e. attracted to persons of the same sex. Nothing else follows necessarily.
I hurled the word “fag” back as often as it was hurled at me. But none of this was “homophobia.” None of it was even true bigotry. I never once had the impression that the word “fag” was being uttered by anyone as a result of a deeply held irrational hatred of men who are sexually attracted to other men.
That does not make it permissible, because the connection is there, regardless of whether you acknowledges it or not. If “Catholic!” became a slur, it would still be inappropriate for the same reason.
On the less frequent occasions that I heard kids throwing racial epithets around, there was clearly something else at play. There was un an unspoken acknowledgement that something ugly was being uttered, even by the utterer, and that it was intended to be ugly.
“Fag” is ugly for the same reason that “retard” is. Both have unfortunately achieved currency in the language as a slur that is divorced, but not completely, from the original meaning, hence the problem.
Homosexuality, as a practice, really deserves to be hated, as it is an objectively evil action contrary to God’s natural order.
Homosexuality is not a practice; it is a state over which the individual has no control, as stated by the Church:
"CCC:
They do not choose their homosexual condition
A Catholic with SSA who lives a holy celibate life is not a homosexual. Full stop.
The Church disagrees, as do most dictionaries:

Homosexual: (of a person) sexually attracted to people of one’s own sex.
 
I love a lively discussion. I love lively, passionate discourse at social gatherings and on online forums. I’m particularly gratified that, in the latter case, no one can throw their drink in my face in the heat of the moment. This is my first thread on CAF, so please don’t mind if I just dive right into it:

There is a disturbing trend among Catholics in the west – cleric and layman alike – toward granting certain tenets of the homosexual agenda, even while combatting it… even before the dialogue has commenced.

For one thing, note how lamentably widespread (even among Catholics) use of the term “gay” is… And I don’t mean in the all-purpose adolescent pejorative sense that the homosexual agenda is currently campaigning against. I mean in the sense of phrases like “gay marriage” or “gay rights,” or simply referring to homosexuals en masse as “gays.” This term, which started as a vague if overly charitable euphemism for homosexuality when discussing the subject in polite company, has since been adopted by the homosexual agenda …
“Since” been adopted? I’m 63 years old and “gay” was a word that gay folks used to refer to one another. It’s a phonetic spelling from a shortened version of some French word, iirc. At any rate, it’s been around since before there was any sort of “gay rights movement.” They didn’t “adopt” it - we did.
 
Very well said, Ed. And in response to a typical complaint that when right thinking Roman Catholics describe homosexual activity as immoral this is somehow unfairly negative and hurtful I respond that this complaint is based on one of two premises: first, that homosexual activity is not immoral or second, that morality is relative or nonexistent. However, Catholic morality is absolute, grounded in divine and natural law. For the Catholic Church and its faithful to condone an act that is highly immoral would itself be immoral, as it would be dishonest. For the Catholic Church and its faithful to keep silent about the immorality of homosexual activity, and in particular the forced establishment of an institution based on this immoral act (same sex “marriage”), would be tantamount to condoning it- a sin of omission. Finally, if one doesn’t want to be told by the Church that an activity is immoral then one can either ignore Church teaching or stop engaging in the immoral activity. Faithful Catholics believe that the latter choice is the only real choice.

For example, I want to be part of the Catholic Church, so I do my best to conform to its teachings. When I fail, which I often do, to live up to the moral perfection towards which all Roman Catholics are required to strive, then I am required to confess my sins, to do penance, and to do my best to amend my life. Whatever one may think of this, it is eminently logical- confession demands accountability, and places the blame for failure strictly on the individual. Confession is a positive Sacrament because it always, ultimately, allows for personal growth- rather than constantly blaming someone else for one’s failings or claiming victim-hood, one can own one’s shortcomings and strive to overcome them. Penance is also progressive and positive, since extenuating circumstances and intention are taken into account in determining the gravity of the sin. Just as in all other aspects of life, in seeking to overcome sin, constant strong and dedicated effort will eventually achieve improvement and at least some degree of success. And when one falls short or backslides, rather than giving up or wallowing in self-pity one is required to get back in the game and keep fighting.

The Church is not going to change- I need to change if I want to conform to the moral teachings of the Catholic Church. The notion that any institution can or should adapt to suit the desires, lifestyle or proclivities of every single individual is not only absurd, it is impossible. This impossibility is magnified exponentially when speaking of the moral teachings of the Catholic Church.
 
The reason many of us “declare” is because we are tired of being represented by the guy in spandex with the rainbow boa from the gay pride parade news coverage. When many heterosexuals think of gay people, they think of stereotypical images-and most gay people aren’t like that at all. It’s like saying that all Christians are the angry guy on the street corner with the megaphone screaming at everyone about how they are all going to burn in Hell because they are such evil sinners. Most Christians aren’t like him either.

Since most of us aren’t spandex-guy, and we don’t walk around wearing signs or labels (yet), we answer honestly about who we are so that straight people can see we’re not that different. We work, pay taxes, shop for groceries…all the boring stuff you do.

I am still hopeful that a day will come when nobody will have to “declare” because the stereotyping and irrational fears are gone.
Nobody thinks of gay people in the way you describe… Sounds like a bad case of heterophobia to me.
 
They would not have to; they could.

That does not follow at all. “Coming out” signifies that you are openly gay, i.e. attracted to persons of the same sex. Nothing else follows necessarily.

That does not make it permissible, because the connection is there, regardless of whether you acknowledges it or not. If “Catholic!” became a slur, it would still be inappropriate for the same reason.

“Fag” is ugly for the same reason that “retard” is. Both have unfortunately achieved currency in the language as a slur that is divorced, but not completely, from the original meaning, hence the problem.

Homosexuality is not a practice; it is a state over which the individual has no control, as stated by the Church:

The Church disagrees, as do most dictionaries:

Homosexual: (of a person) sexually attracted to people of one’s own sex.
I think what BTSYNC means is actively homosexual. Also, I would substitute the word “chastity” for celibacy, as a requirement for SSA individuals to be part of the Church, since same-sex “marriage” is an oxymoron in Catholic teaching.
 
They would not have to; they could.

That does not follow at all. “Coming out” signifies that you are openly gay, i.e. attracted to persons of the same sex. Nothing else follows necessarily
I think the OP responded well to a similar question in an earlier post.

You wouldn’t refer to someone as a “non practicing masturbator” would you?

A person with same sex attraction who does not act or live the lifestyle is not a homosexual. Straight up.

Again as the original idea of this thread is, the language is very important. Sounds like you are getting confused with the original and true meaning behind the language amd getting mixed up by the propganda that is spewed by the gay agenda.
 
I think the OP responded well to a similar question in an earlier post.

You wouldn’t refer to someone as a “non practicing masturbator” would you?

A person with same sex attraction who does not act or live the lifestyle is not a homosexual. Straight up.

Again as the original idea of this thread is, the language is very important. Sounds like you are getting confused with the original and true meaning behind the language amd getting mixed up by the propganda that is spewed by the gay agenda.
Indeed… 👏
 
You wouldn’t refer to someone as a “non practicing masturbator” would you?
No, because the entire basis for calling someone a masturbator is that they masturbate. Homosexual describes someone who is attracted to persons of the opposite sex.
A person with same sex attraction who does not act or live the lifestyle is not a homosexual. Straight up.
That is a definitional issue and the distinction you draw has no purpose whatsoever.

From Merriam-Webster:
1: of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex
2: of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex
Note that the primary definition does not relate to any action whatsoever and the second one cannot relate to a person.

Furthermore, as I stated above, the Church’s definition of homosexuality does not involve action.
Again as the original idea of this thread is, the language is very important. Sounds like you are getting confused with the original and true meaning behind the language amd getting mixed up by the propganda that is spewed by the gay agenda.
LOL. Point out a single thing I said that is contrary to any Church document. Then point out a single thing I said that suggests I condone homosexual actions in any way whatsoever.
 
Belor: Finally, someone here is making sense! Homosexual describes those with same-sex attraction- practicing describes those who act on that attraction. There is quite a world of difference between being inclined towards a certain temptation and giving into it.
 
Baelor and brasta, that is not the accurate definition of homosexual. Read the very first post of this entire thread please. It seems you have bought into the big lie that this is the definition of homosexual provided and changed by propagandaists for the gay agenda.

Having same sex attraction does not make you homosexual, it means you are tempted.

Having an inclination towards stealing does not make a person a thief, it means they are tempted.
 
That is the definition provided by a dictionary, a far more reliable source of definitions than a random person with an opinion on a forum.

And anybody can be inclined towards stealing- whereas only a small minority of the population is inclined towards this particular sin. You would never see a naturally heterosexual person like most of us ever being attracted towards a member of the same sex- but we still can steal, murder, rob, and commit a host of other sinsanyone else can. This a specific sin that only one small group is inclined towards.
 
That is the definition provided by a dictionary, a far more reliable source of definitions than a random person with an opinion on a forum.

And anybody can be inclined towards stealing- whereas only a small minority of the population is inclined towards this particular sin. You would never see a naturally heterosexual person like most of us ever being attracted towards a member of the same sex- but we still can steal, murder, rob, and commit a host of other sinsanyone else can. This a specific sin that only one small group is inclined towards.
I didn’t define homosexual. Look up the meaning from the earlier sources before they became corrupt by propagandaists as has already been suggested. Please don’t take.my word for it. Look it up.

I would never see a heterosexual attracted to the same sex? Just look at what goes on in prison and try making that statement again.

Even if it only affects a small population, so can any other sin. While a group of people may be heavily tempted to steal, I am not tempted in the least to steal. That doesn’t take away from the point whatsoever. If you don’t steal, you’re not a thief. Period. Regardless of the level or severity of temptation and inclination.
 
Dear Portrait,

As usual, an excellent post. Allow me to point out that our one hour in Church, plus Holy days of Obligation, are immediately drowned out the moment we set foot in almost any store that sells magazines or books, or when we turn on the radio, or listen to the TV news, and watch most TV programs. The words and phrases are repeated endlessly, the same words and phrases. So, we, in essence, by reading or hearing those words and phrases, meditate on them. This is an old propaganda technique. It makes even otherwise thoughtful and Christian people wonder: Am I missing anything? And notice the terminology: rights, bigotry and phobia. We are normally inclined to be for rights, if they can be shown to be legitimate, against bigotry, and understanding of the word phobia. So when the President of the United States, states that “I think homosexuals should be allowed to marry,” it makes me wonder: Here is an otherwise intelligent and articulate man, but he too, has been convinced of something. How? As the leader of this country, he has singled out a single group and attached his approval to their agenda.

snipped for space.

Peace,
Ed
Dear ed,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well. You dispatch some splendid stuff your self, old chap, the above being no exception.

Homosexual propaganda, which many have been duped by hook, line and sinker, is indeed powerful and the activists have been jolly disingenuous in having any opposition to homosexual vice bracketed along with racialism, when the two are clearly not identical.

Significant shifts have occured in the way society views homosexuality, for example, dear friend, consider the use of the word ‘heterosexual’. If you look in the Oxford Dictionary, Third Edition 1944; Reprinited with corrections 1947, you will find that there are over 70 words beginning with the prefix ‘hetero’, but ‘heterosexual’ is not to be found among them. Why? Because that dictionary clearly represents the thinking of a period in which the compound would have seemed tautologous. For the word ‘sex’ and the word ‘sexual’ are clearly defined in terms of male and female, thus: ‘the distinction between male and female’ and ‘relative to physical intercourse between the sexes’. What else, on this basis, can ‘sexual’ relationships be but relationships between the sexes? Thus whilst that dictionary certainly defines ‘homosexual’ as ‘having a sexual propensity for persons of one’s own sex’, it sees no cause to qualify the word ‘sexual’ for general purposes. Once you make a practice of qualifying the adjective ‘sexual’ by turning it into ‘heterosexual’, you at once imply that heterosexuality is but one variant of sexuality, of which homosexuality is another variant. The standard has gone and the norm has disappeared from view. What was once a deviation from normal and natural sexuality has become a variant as valid as the former norm. Now this sort of stuff, dear friend, gradually changes people’s perceptions in a very subtle way so that they begin to see what is aberrant as normal, even though different.

Since the social upheaval of the Sixties, men have become increasingly reluctant to pass judgment on departures from conventional (and normal) monogamous practices which former generations would have been bluntly hostile to, and quite rightly so. The avant-garde of the Sixties and Seventies revolted against anything which even had the whiff of conventionality or traditional values, they were essentially iconaclasts destroying the old order and putting in its place the ‘new explanation’ or the philosophy of libertinism. In their wicked and childish rejection of what they deemed to be the ‘rigidities of the past’ and ‘societal stereotypes’, they went further and further in the direction of moral anarchy. Many good and God-fearing people. both Catholic and Protestant, did denounce this new godless ideology and warned of its dire consequences, but they were largely dismissed as the old guard refusing to accept the march of social and intellectual progress. Now this godless philosphy has caused immeasurable high moral damage in the West and undeniably has impacted the thinking of Christians, perhaps a great deal more than they are willing to admit. For example, many see nothing wrong with the use of profanity or women being indecently attired in seductive style clothing, such as mini-skirts, which plainly transgress the boundaries of propriety and one could go on. Suffice to say that many have assimilated the spirit of the age and have become desensitized to that which wrong and sinful. It is, as you rightly remark, dear friend, the reason why the dogma of the homosexual agenda has filtered through to the minds of the laity and clergy. We are less likely now to speak of homosexuality as an ‘abomination’ in the sight of God and as a henious sin that calls forth his wrath, as this is seen as disrespectful and even uncharitable, notwithstanding that it is the truth.

It is now becoming, certainly here in the UK, well-nigh impossible to speak out against homosexual vice without being accused of a ‘hate crime’. Quite recently a godly couple who owned a guest house got themselves into jolly deep water because they turned away two homosexual men who had requested a double-room. Christians now feel very muzzled and even among their more worldly brethren, the more earnest men can seem like heartless Puritan priggs or like preachers of the fire and brimstone variety, devoid of any compassion. We are certainly living in very troublous times, but I think that the time will arrive when Christians will have to nail their colours to the mast and stand up and be counted. Perhaps that time is coming very soon.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Baelor and brasta, that is not the accurate definition of homosexual. Read the very first post of this entire thread please.
You keep saying that. I keep responding the same thing.

Let me put it another way:

Why should I ignore the definition the Church offers instead of your own?
Having same sex attraction does not make you homosexual, it means you are tempted.
It makes you a homosexual by definition.
Having an inclination towards stealing does not make a person a thief, it means they are tempted.
That comparison is faulty:
  1. The definition of a thief is one who steals; the definition of a homosexual is one who is attracted to the same sex.
  2. “Homosexual” is fundamentally a static state. “Thief” is not. One can steal things, and then cease to steal things. The Church has not taken a position on whether one can simply cease to be homosexual, because that implies a mental state. There is a term for someone who cannot cease to steal and is mentally compelled to steal, a kleptomaniac. Even your example demonstrates my point.
 
I didn’t define homosexual. Look up the meaning from the earlier sources
Earlier sources are irrelevant. The question is what the term means. It is now generally agreed to mean someone who is sexually attracted to the same sex, and therefore it means someone who is sexually attracted to the same sex, as per the Church’s definition.
I would never see a heterosexual attracted to the same sex? Just look at what goes on in prison and try making that statement again.
You misunderstand gravely the nature of prison rape. It does not involve sexual attraction.
 
Very well said, Ed. And in response to a typical complaint that when right thinking Roman Catholics describe homosexual activity as immoral this is somehow unfairly negative and hurtful I respond that this complaint is based on one of two premises: first, that homosexual activity is not immoral or second, that morality is relative or nonexistent. However, Catholic morality is absolute, grounded in divine and natural law. For the Catholic Church and its faithful to condone an act that is highly immoral would itself be immoral, as it would be dishonest. For the Catholic Church and its faithful to keep silent about the immorality of homosexual activity, and in particular the forced establishment of an institution based on this immoral act (same sex “marriage”), would be tantamount to condoning it- a sin of omission. Finally, if one doesn’t want to be told by the Church that an activity is immoral then one can either ignore Church teaching or stop engaging in the immoral activity. Faithful Catholics believe that the latter choice is the only real choice.

For example, I want to be part of the Catholic Church, so I do my best to conform to its teachings. When I fail, which I often do, to live up to the moral perfection towards which all Roman Catholics are required to strive, then I am required to confess my sins, to do penance, and to do my best to amend my life. Whatever one may think of this, it is eminently logical- confession demands accountability, and places the blame for failure strictly on the individual. Confession is a positive Sacrament because it always, ultimately, allows for personal growth- rather than constantly blaming someone else for one’s failings or claiming victim-hood, one can own one’s shortcomings and strive to overcome them. Penance is also progressive and positive, since extenuating circumstances and intention are taken into account in determining the gravity of the sin. Just as in all other aspects of life, in seeking to overcome sin, constant strong and dedicated effort will eventually achieve improvement and at least some degree of success. And when one falls short or backslides, rather than giving up or wallowing in self-pity one is required to get back in the game and keep fighting.

The Church is not going to change- I need to change if I want to conform to the moral teachings of the Catholic Church. The notion that any institution can or should adapt to suit the desires, lifestyle or proclivities of every single individual is not only absurd, it is impossible. This impossibility is magnified exponentially when speaking of the moral teachings of the Catholic Church.
Dear Faithdancer,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Jolly well said. A hearty Amen to all of that.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Why does anyone want to say, publicly, “I’m gay.” Yeah. So?

For Catholics, let’s be clear.

(A) A person can be gay his whole life, say nothing about it, not act out and die.
(B) A person could tell people in public, that he’s gay. Why?
(C) A person could make it be known that he is gay and engaging in gay sexual behavior. Why?
(D) A person could dress up in whatever he likes and participate in a gay pride parade. Why?
(E) A person could be promoting same-sex marriage and be acting out his same-sex desires. Why?

It is clear that there is an ongoing campaign here, and around the world, to normalize gay sexual behavior. That is against natural biology and against Church teaching. That is all Catholics need to know.

And yes, we should respect everyone.

Peace,
Ed
 
Thank you, Baelor.
And I would disagree that there are not variants of sexuality- if there were not, everyone would never have any inclination towards the same sex at all. And as for what happens in prison- there is quite a difference between actually being attracted to someone, and trying to use them for sexual pleasure simply because there is no other option- I assure if prisons were co-ed, you wouldn’t see that happening. I nother words, those in prison commit sinful acts with the same gender because there is no one else there for them to commit sinful acts with, whereas homosexuals are free to commit sinful acts with both the same and oppositte genders, but are only sexually atracted to one. Desperation trumps Sexual Inclination when your moral standards are low already.
 
You keep saying that. I keep responding the same thing.

Let me put it another way:

Why should I ignore the definition the Church offers instead of your own?
Actually “my definition” is not mine, its what I’ve learned from members of the Church. Although some members have been tricked into accepting propagandaists terms amd conceding more ground to those who support the gay agenda. Sound familiar? Oh yea its the very thing this thread is about!
That comparison is faulty:
  1. The definition of a thief is one who steals; the definition of a homosexual is one who is attracted to the same sex.
That’s what societys definition is. Merriam Webster isn’t credible and are obviously biased.
  1. “Homosexual” is fundamentally a static state. “Thief” is not. One can steal things, and then cease to steal things. The Church has not taken a position on whether one can simply cease to be homosexual, because that implies a mental state. There is a term for someone who cannot cease to steal and is mentally compelled to steal, a kleptomaniac. Even your example demonstrates my point.
A kleptomaniac is a person who is compelled to steal. If the kleptomaniac does not steal, they are no longer a thief/kleptomaniac, despite the severity of the urge to steal. It is the action that defines.
 
And anybody can be inclined towards stealing- whereas only a small minority of the population is inclined towards this particular sin. You would never see a naturally heterosexual person like most of us ever being attracted towards a member of the same sex.
I don’t believe it. :cool:

I could do anything I put my mind to… Doesn’t mean I’m going to do it.
 
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