Catholics ARE "Christians"; so why aren't all Christians Catholic?

[rcwitness]

So if I am understanding you correctly then I have learned something new this morning. I am hearing that if I receive salvation validly through my Protestant church by professing belief in Jesus Christ as my Saviour and Lord and am validly baptized that Jesus only grants me salvation because the CC has extended that unity and privilege to me?

Yes, although you kinda make it sound like the Church decided this in recent times. Those things are Apostolic Truths which were professed from the beginning. The situations of protestants are modern, so they have to be taken under consideration of the circumstances they are in.

 

[rcwitness]

You post those verses KNOWING that Peter and Paul did NOT submit to their governing authorities.

please explain how that affected their salvation.

yes they did, but they were a pointed as Apostles which demanded a higher authoritative position. They had the authority to distinguish what was the higher law.

For example, Paul appealed to authorities, and even submitted to St Peter for confirmation.

 

[PJM]

I’m not following how not submitting to an earthly authority of any kind invalidates the plan of salvation
Please explain to us how anyone’s **salvation depends on ** submission to Obama?

And here’s WHY you struggle with it:

IT’s GOD"S Desire, and Divine Will that that their be worldwide

Just One True God {the 1st Commandment}

One God can logically & Morally have Just ONE set of Faith beliefs {cannot be disproven: logically, morally or BIBLICALLY}

And just as Yahweh chose JUST ONE People {Exodus 6:7}; Jesus {the SAME GOD} followed his own Tradition by

Desiring

Establishing

Protecting

just one Church> “MY CHURCH” {singular} and a church cannot be separated from the faith beliefs of that Church.

Mt 16:17-20
[17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock** I will build my church**{singular}, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."

So Jesus established His Catholic Church some 1,500 years before the reformation. Amen!

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Quote:
Originally Posted by alwayswill View Post
Absolutely; that part of Unam Sanctam is it considered an infallible declaration

.

Yes … by some.

So my friend Peter, do you perhaps not know that any and all tracings on Faith and or Morals by the Pontiff, in a formal declaration to the world is Infallible?

Please Read
Mt 10:1-8
Mt 16:15-19
John 7: 17-20 {this is the grounds and foundations of Infallibility; IF rightly inderstood.
Mt 28:18-20

Pray Much my friend Peter.

Patrick

 

[alwayswill]

yes they did, but they were a pointed as Apostles which demanded a higher authoritative position. They had the authority to distinguish what was the higher law.

For example, Paul appealed to authorities, and even submitted to St Peter for confirmation.

and what of the early Christian martyrs? did they submit to their governing authorities?

please explain how that affected their salvation.

 

[PJM]

Hi rc, in 1 Peter 2 :25, is the Bishop of your souls meaning Peter or Jesus?

Here’s the passage:
" [25] For you were as sheep going astray; but you are now converted to the shepherd and bishop of your souls."

REPLY

From God’s and therefore “realities” perspective the terms are interchangeable in EFFECT and AUTHORITY when teaching on all matters of Faith-beliefs and OR Morals

John 17:17-20

[17] Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. [18] As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [19] And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [20] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;[21] That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

No other church or faith can claim Jesus as the WARRANTY of their teaching ONLY God’s Truth and be able to prove it, except his Catholic Church.

My 16: 18-19 Jesus [GOD} clearly gives ALL the key’s to HiS Heavenly Kingdom to Peter and his successors {read Mt 10:1-8 and compare it to Mt 28:19-20}

**Then their is this exchange
John 21:15-17

[15] When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him**: [YOU PETER] Feed my lambs**. [16] He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him**: [YOU PETER] Feed my lambs**. [17] He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him**:[YOU PETER] Feed my sheep**

God Bless you

Patrick {OP}

 

[PJM]

So who are we to listen to?
The Catholic Catechism #819: Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these churches and Ecclesial Communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fulness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

PLEASE read my post #106 for this answer. GREAT Q!

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[Wannano]

Yes, although you kinda make it sound like the Church decided this in recent times. Those things are Apostolic Truths which were professed from the beginning. The situations of protestants are modern, so they have to be taken under consideration of the circumstances they are in.

Honestly rc, I will be gone for a few hours but now I sure have something to think on. I guess in all my time here at caf I have totally misunderstood so much.

I had joyfully understood that in a spirit of eniightenment and ecumenism the CC had come to realize that non-catholics are brothers and sisters in Christ and not heretics with all the profane that went with that. I somehow has felt that it was OK to be non-catholic. Now I understand that it is as long as I don’t realize that my salvation came from the CC AND NOT from Jesus directly.

Am I the only one muddled up?

 

[PJM]

I take it a little more literally…it states that salvation can be gained and experienced in churches that are not in communion with Rome. Being a separated brother would place me in a position of not obeying the Bishops of the Catholic Church right? So you are saying I cannot follow the Holy Spirit even though I can gain salvation in a church that is outside the confines of the CC?

From the Catechism of the RCC
SAVED

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[Peter_J]

What if the Bishops are clearly not following the Holy Spirit?

History clearly shows that, sometimes, some in the Church are “clearly not following the Holy Spirit”. That can even include bishops. Even the Patriarch of Constantinople. Heck, we even have Galatians 2:11, “But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.”

What I don’t believe can happen is for the Church as a whole to fail to follow the Holy Spirit.

 

[rcwitness]

Honestly rc, I will be gone for a few hours but now I sure have something to think on. I guess in all my time here at caf I have totally misunderstood so much.

I had joyfully understood that in a spirit of eniightenment and ecumenism the CC had come to realize that non-catholics are brothers and sisters in Christ and not heretics with all the profane that went with that. I somehow has felt that it was OK to be non-catholic. Now I understand that it is as long as I don’t realize that my salvation came from the CC AND NOT from Jesus directly.

Am I the only one muddled up?

Whoah… I think you are jumping to strange conclusions. Your salvation comes from God through the life, work, and death of our Lord. This is participated initially in Baptism and persevered through suffering with Him.

This Revelation came through the Church which was Built in Peter and the Apostles. You did not learn of the message directly from Jesus, such as the Apostles and Paul did. You received a faith from the apostolic succession of the Church of God.

 

[Peter_J]

Honestly rc, I will be gone for a few hours but now I sure have something to think on. I guess in all my time here at caf I have totally misunderstood so much.

I had joyfully understood that in a spirit of eniightenment and ecumenism the CC had come to realize that non-catholics are brothers and sisters in Christ and not heretics with all the profane that went with that. I somehow has felt that it was OK to be non-catholic. Now I understand that it is as long as I don’t realize that my salvation came from the CC AND NOT from Jesus directly.

Am I the only one muddled up?

Hi Wannano.

This will be brief as I’m eager for lunch, and not even sure I understand your post beyond the fact that your basis for changing your mind is something you read on catholic.com right? But you had also previously made up your mind based on something you read on catholic.com. Is that right?

 

[rcwitness]

Hi Wannano.

This will be brief as I’m eager for lunch, and not even sure I understand your post beyond the fact that your basis for changing your mind is something you read on catholic.com right? But you had also previously made up your mind based on something you read on catholic.com. Is that right?

And I am ready to admit I am not infallible in my understanding of Church Teaching. But I am trying to convey the Catholic faith as the Spirit gives understanding to me.

That, we all need to do ourselves.

But I am also getting misunderstood here by Wannano. And I am not offended. I don’t take it as intentional. I only hope I am expressing the faith truly and sincerely.

 

[Padres1969]

History clearly shows that, sometimes, some in the Church are “clearly not following the Holy Spirit”. That can even include bishops. Even the Patriarch of Constantinople. Heck, we even have Galatians 2:11, “But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.”

What I don’t believe can happen is for the Church as a whole to fail to follow the Holy Spirit.

Still in post 93 it was suggested that even if they’re clearly not following the Holy Spirit Catholics still have to submit to their judgement? Even if it’s clearly not God’s will?

 

[Padres1969]

Correct, BUT is that biblically GOD"S Divine Will?

God Bless you

Patrick

Depends on your definition of “one” I suppose, as in all of us (being Christians) being one.

I’d say that despite some comparatively minor differences between denominations we are all still one in Christ.

 

[rcwitness]

Still in post 93 it was suggested that even if they’re clearly not following the Holy Spirit Catholics still have to submit to their judgement? Even if it’s clearly not God’s will?

Ok, this deserves a little clarification! What I was intending, is to submit oneself to the institution. I’m not suggesting that we do something clearly against the Holy Spirit! There is no way a situation would not be able to be appealed to if a leader was demanding someone do something against the Holy Spirit.

My point is, is that you would need to appeal to the Church to resolve the issue. If God is willing, it will reach the Bishop of Rome for Divine confirmation. If the Holy Spirit is guiding you, He will show you the Words and the Teaching to defend yourself.

St Joan of Arc is a prime example! She submitted to the Church and was persecuted falsely! She did not deny Jesus or the Holy Spirit!

 

[rcwitness]

Still in post 93 it was suggested that even if they’re clearly not following the Holy Spirit Catholics still have to submit to their judgement? Even if it’s clearly not God’s will?

Furthermore, when you ask, “… their judgment?” Doyou mean the bishops together?

You ask a complicated question and criticize. You ask if the Holy Spirit would lead us to disobey the Church of God? I say no. Do leaders behave wrongly sometimes? Yes. But we need to subject ourselves to the authorities, and appeal to the highest rule of the Church while doing so.

 

[Padres1969]

Ok, this deserves a little clarification! What I was intending, is to submit oneself to the institution. I’m not suggesting that we do something clearly against the Holy Spirit! There is no way a situation would not be able to be appealed to if a leader was demanding someone do something against the Holy Spirit.

My point is, is that you would need to appeal to the Church to resolve the issue. If God is willing, it will reach the Bishop of Rome for Divine confirmation. If the Holy Spirit is guiding you, He will show you the Words and the Teaching to defend yourself.

St Joan of Arc is a prime example! She submitted to the Church and was persecuted falsely! She did not deny Jesus or the Holy Spirit!

Your example of Joan of Arc however presents a troubling question IMO. If we know the Church acted wrongly in her case, which it very clearly did, then why should she have submitted to it?

 

[rcwitness]

Your example of Joan of Arc however presents a troubling question IMO. If we know the Church acted wrongly in her case, which it very clearly did, then why should she have submitted to it?

Because she was submitting to the Church for the sake of her Lord. The men who persecuted her were not following the Lord. They held an unlawful court against her. The Bishops must abide by Church law.

 

[Wannano]

Whoah… I think you are jumping to strange conclusions. Your salvation comes from God through the life, work, and death of our Lord. This is participated initially in Baptism and persevered through suffering with Him.

This Revelation came through the Church which was Built in Peter and the Apostles. You did not learn of the message directly from Jesus, such as the Apostles and Paul did. You received a faith from the apostolic succession of the Church of God.

Hi, I am back. Ok, I am not trying to drive you nuts, I am just in sort of a quandary…

With reference to Catholic Catechism #818, 819 and 862.
CC 818…I have been born into a community (that resulted from such a separation) and been brought up in the faith of Christ. So the CC accepts me with respect and affection as a brother. I have the right to be called a Christian because I have been baptized, even as an adult, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. As such I am accepted as a brother in the Lord by the children of the CC.

CC 819…many elements of sanctification and truth are found outside the visible confines of the CC. Christ uses these Churches and Ecclesial Communities such as mine as a means of salvation. Through the teaching of my non-Catholic church and home I made a conscious decision to follow Christ and make Him Lord of my life. I was then baptized and became a member of our church. Seems this is all good with the CC in #819.

CC 862…my church which is outside the confines of the CC does not teach that Jesus started His Church on Peter but rather on Himself as per the confession of Peter that Jesus was the Christ. So we differ in #862 and I quote “hence the Church teaches that the Bishops have by divine institution taken the place of the Apostles as pastors of the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them is listening to Christ, and whoever despises them despises Christ and him who sent Christ.”

To be continued…