Catholics ARE "Christians"; so why aren't all Christians Catholic?

[Wannano]

Hi, I am back. Ok, I am not trying to drive you nuts, I am just in sort of a quandary…

With reference to Catholic Catechism #818, 819 and 862.
CC 818…I have been born into a community (that resulted from such a separation) and been brought up in the faith of Christ. So the CC accepts me with respect and affection as a brother. I have the right to be called a Christian because I have been baptized, even as an adult, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. As such I am accepted as a brother in the Lord by the children of the CC.

CC 819…many elements of sanctification and truth are found outside the visible confines of the CC. Christ uses these Churches and Ecclesial Communities such as mine as a means of salvation. Through the teaching of my non-Catholic church and home I made a conscious decision to follow Christ and make Him Lord of my life. I was then baptized and became a member of our church. Seems this is all good with the CC in #819.

CC 862…my church which is outside the confines of the CC does not teach that Jesus started His Church on Peter but rather on Himself as per the confession of Peter that Jesus was the Christ. So we differ in #862 and I quote “hence the Church teaches that the Bishops have by divine institution taken the place of the Apostles as pastors of the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them is listening to Christ, and whoever despises them despises Christ and him who sent Christ.”

To be continued…

Why the word “despise” is used is beyond me. I take that to mean hate, loathe etc. To not agree that we are all under the rule of the Pope and Bishops does not mean that one despises them. Then to say that person despises Christ and God?

Herein lie to my quandary. In 818, 819 it seems my church is a viable entity in which Christ presents the salvation message to people. Then in 862, we despise Christ because we understand the catholic church to built upon Christ rather than Peter. Certainly believing that the church, the bride of Christ was to be founded upon Christ Himself instead of man puts us outside the visible confines of the CC, but what happened to the “acceptance as a brother in the Lord with respect and affection.”?

It seems then if I as a Protestant am ignorant of the need to believe the CC is the only true Church of God then I can still attain salvation. If however I am informed and confronted with that “fact” and I do not come to belief and practice in the CC, there probably isn’t much hope for me in eternity.

 

[Peter_J]

So the CC accepts me with respect and affection as a brother.

And vice versa we hope.

 

[Peter_J]

“whoever listens to them is listening to Christ, and whoever despises them despises Christ and him who sent Christ.”

Don’t you believe the same thing, Wannano, excepting that the “them” wouldn’t mean the same for you and for us?

Luke 10:16: “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

 

[Wannano]

And vice versa we hope.

Of course, t’would only be right. Is the rest fluff?

 

[rcwitness]

Why the word “despise” is used is beyond me. I take that to mean hate, loathe etc. To not agree that we are all under the rule of the Pope and Bishops does not mean that one despises them. Then to say that person despises Christ and God?

Herein lie to my quandary. In 818, 819 it seems my church is a viable entity in which Christ presents the salvation message to people. Then in 862, we despise Christ because we understand the catholic church to built upon Christ rather than Peter. Certainly believing that the church, the bride of Christ was to be founded upon Christ Himself instead of man puts us outside the visible confines of the CC, but what happened to the “acceptance as a brother in the Lord with respect and affection.”?

It seems then if I as a Protestant am ignorant of the need to believe the CC is the only true Church of God then I can still attain salvation. If however I am informed and confronted with that “fact” and I do not come to belief and practice in the CC, there probably isn’t much hope for me in eternity.

Good question.

The confession of Peter is definitely the rock of confessions. This should not be a source of contention. However, it was a person who confessed this. And Jesus bestowed a prominent role for this person. He held him in the closest way to his ministry. He prayed for Peter to strengthen the others. Peter was the first whom Jesus saw after the resurrection. Jeus comissioned him to tend and feed the flock. Peter spoke on behalf of the others. Peter was the one to silence the Council, and call the appointing of the Apostle to replace Judas. He was the pillar that Paul spent weeks laying down the Gospel he was called to preach. And he was the Apostle who blessed Rome with the Episcolate office!

The evidence is great that demonstrates that Jesus did not merely build His Church on a statement, but also a leader, which many other leaders. We are told in Scripture to obey our leaders, to submit to them, that they watch over our souls, that they feed us, that they strengthen us, that they rule over us, and not for their own glory.

Yes, some fall away from their calling, and become cruel and beat those under their care. But Jesus was our example not to despise when this happens, but to accept our crosses daily.

All we can do, is to appeal to them. To appeal to their faith, to request to be heard, and if possible all the way to the Holy See. But first we must do our own serving to others in need. I will not imaging myself a victim of clergy abuse unless it actually happens, and if God is my strength, I will persevere like St Joan of Arc did.

But I am not even trustworthy in the little things! Who am I to think myself able to admonish or suffer at the hands of a hypocrite leader of the Church? No, I will obey the Lord when I am in the House of God. I will not look to other flocks who pick and choose their congregation and it’s pastors. I will either make it or fail at the altar of His Eucharist.

You may see two paths to serve; either the Bishop of Rome, or the Holy Spirit.

I do not see them as two separate ways, but His Holy Spirit confirming and convicting my spirit to Commune with the Bishop who has succeeded Peter. I will not judge the Bishops as apostasy and standing on a shakey foundation. Jesus Himself has secured this foundation. He prayed for our strength, and our Father is true to His Son’s prayer.

 

[Wannano]

Don’t you believe the same thing, Wannano, excepting that the “them” wouldn’t mean the same for you and for us?

I think I get your drift, I had not connected those verses to church leadership before.

 

[Wannano]

I think I get your drift, I had not connected those verses to church leadership before.

I think I interpreted it as an anathema if that makes any sense to you.

 

[Wannano]

Good question.

The confession of Peter is definitely the rock of confessions. This should not be a source of contention. However, it was a person who confessed this. And Jesus bestowed a prominent role for this person. He held him in the closest way to his ministry. He prayed for Peter to strengthen the others. Peter was the first whom Jesus saw after the resurrection. Jeus comissioned him to tend and feed the flock. Peter spoke on behalf of the others. Peter was the one to silence the Council, and call the appointing of the Apostle to replace Judas. He was the pillar that Paul spent weeks laying down the Gospel he was called to preach. And he was the Apostle who blessed Rome with the Episcolate office!

The evidence is great that demonstrates that Jesus did not merely build His Church on a statement, but also a leader, which many other leaders. We are told in Scripture to obey our leaders, to submit to them, that they watch over our souls, that they feed us, that they strengthen us, that they rule over us, and not for their own glory.

Yes, some fall away from their calling, and become cruel and beat those under their care. But Jesus was our example not to despise when this happens, but to accept our crosses daily.

All we can do, is to appeal to them. To appeal to their faith, to request to be heard, and if possible all the way to the Holy See. But first we must do our own serving to others in need. I will not imaging myself a victim of clergy abuse unless it actually happens, and if God is my strength, I will persevere like St Joan of Arc did.

But I am not even trustworthy in the little things! Who am I to think myself able to admonish or suffer at the hands of a hypocrite leader of the Church? No, I will obey the Lord when I am in the House of God. I will not look to other flocks who pick and choose their congregation and it’s pastors. I will either make it or fail at the altar of His Eucharist.

You may see two paths to serve; either the Bishop of Rome, or the Holy Spirit.

I do not see them as two separate ways, but His Holy Spirit confirming and convicting my spirit to Commune with the Bishop who has succeeded Peter. I will not judge the Bishops as apostasy and standing on a shakey foundation. Jesus Himself has secured this foundation. He prayed for our strength, and our Father is true to His Son’s prayer.

I respect your commitment.

 

[Peter_J]

I think I get your drift, I had not connected those verses to church leadership before.

Right. Jesus didn’t specify who the “you” was in his statement. Only the apostles? Or also their successors the bishop? Or all Christians? At least the bishops, according to that paragraph from the CCC.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Depends on your definition of “one” I suppose, as in all of us (being Christians) being one.

I’d say that despite some comparatively minor differences between denominations we are all still one in Christ.

Amen to that.

 

[Tomdstone]

I’d say that despite some comparatively minor differences between denominations we are all still one in Christ.

If the differences are minor, why hasn’t the Episcopal church joined the Roman Catholic Church ?

 

[rcwitness]

If the differences are minor, why hasn’t the Episcopal church joined the Roman Catholic Church ?

Good question. I have been told, “It’s the same God we all worship… why does it matter where we go?”

Well, then why not all be Catholic?

It is a most ancient Church, and with a means to all conform under one leadership, while doing so for the sake of Christ our Lord.

 

[rcwitness]

I respect your commitment.

And I respect your faith. You have foundational faith that offers salvation and eternal life!

I dont, however, respect disobedience to the Bishop of Rome, as a pastor over the whole flock/house. I do not believe this comes from faith, but human indifference.

Paul warned the Corinthians of following the leaders who Baptized them as though they were distinct and taught different gospels. Christ crucified was his call. The Eucharist is this very thing. This is why the Church calls His Eucharist central to the faith.

The Catholic faith calls us to centralize His Eucharist in our lives, worship, devotion, and brotherhood.

When I was searching what Church to worship at, and decided to give the one who calls itself the original a chance, I was so pleasantly surprised when I went to Mass and discovered how central Jesus is! The concept that we follow a pope and not Jesus is a myth. And when I went to Mass, I saw that myth dispelled.

 

[Padres1969]

If the differences are minor, why hasn’t the Episcopal church joined the Roman Catholic Church ?

I could ask you the same thing. Why hasn’t the RCC joined the Anglican Communion or with the Orthodox for example? The differences may be minor, but that doesn’t mean we don’t consider them important.

 

[rcwitness]

I could ask you the same thing. Why hasn’t the RCC joined the Anglican Communion or with the Orthodox for example? The differences may be minor, but that doesn’t mean we don’t consider them important.

Absolutely. So hundreds, if not thousands, of denominations can ask this, but what is the most reasonable Communion that affords Universal unification?

We already have it in place, and according to Tradition, it is established by Christ.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by PJM View Post
Correct, BUT is that biblically GOD"S Divine Will?
God Bless you
Patrick [end quote]

Depends on your definition of “one” I suppose, as in all of us (being Christians) being one.

I’d say that despite some comparatively minor differences between denominations we are all still one in Christ.

 

[PJM]

Hi, I am back. Ok, I am not trying to drive you nuts, I am just in sort of a quandary…

With reference to Catholic Catechism #818, 819 and 862.
CC 818…I have been born into a community (that resulted from such a separation) and been brought up in the faith of Christ…

Technically correct, but from a more insightful and right understanding, a “half-brother” is a more APT term.

** scborromeo.org/ccc.htm**

Catechism of the RCC

846 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own,** do not know Christ and his Church**:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

CC 819…many elements of sanctification and truth are found outside the visible confines of the CC. Christ uses these Churches and Ecclesial Communities such as mine as a means of salvation.

“Many” dear friend is NOT “All” essential

CC 862…my church which is outside the confines of the CC does not teach that Jesus started His Church on Peter but rather on Himself as per the confession of Peter that Jesus was the Christ.

Here are the biblical evidences of the position of Christ and HIS CC. Note please the singular tense words chosen by Jesus {GOD}

Mt.-1-2
"And having called his twelve disciples together, **he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, **. [2] And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter,

Mt.16: 18-20
And I {GOD] say to THEE: That thou art Peter; and upon [YOU PETER] this rock I will build 2my MY CHURCH {singular and a church cannot be separated fron its one set of Faith beliefs} , and the gates of hell shall not prevail against IT [singular} [/COLOR]. And I will give to THEE {all of them implied here} the keys of the kingdom of heaven.** And whatsoever YOU shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever YOU shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Eph 2:20-23 Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone: In whom all the building, being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord.

Jn 15: 17-21
Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee.** He saith TO HIM PETER Feed my lambs.**

He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith TO HIM PETER: Feed my lambs.** because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest that I love thee.** He said TO HIM PETER: Feed my sheep.**

Jn 17:17-20
Sanctify THEM in truth. Thy word is truth. [18] As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have SEND THEM {directly and exclusively was Christ intent} into the world. [19**] And FOR THEM} ** do I sanctify myself, that THEY also may be sanctified IN TRUTH. [20]** And not for THEM only do I pray, but for them also who through THEIR WORD shall believe in me**;**

Mt 28:19-20
Going therefore, teach YOU all nations;**{Again direct, singular and exclusive by Christ intent} ** baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world.

…my church which is outside the confines of the CC does not teach that Jesus started His Church on Peter but rather on Himself as per the confession of Peter that Jesus was the Christ

.

As evidenced by the bible passages I quoted and shared, your church’s position is both biblically and historically weak. Christ FOUNDED the Church that He empowered Peter to run on his behalf.

In order for God to be GOD “All good things perfected”; Jesus MUST be both Fair and Just… Jesus MUST pass final judgment upon each of us based NOT on what we choose to believe and accept, NO, rather it has to be on what He Christ has made POSSIBLE for us to know and belief.

Pope Benedict said this about truth:

“THERE CANNOT BE YOUR TRUTH AND MY TRUTH, OR THERE WOULD BE NO TRUTH.” … To which I add AMEN!

God Bless!
Patrick {the OP}

 

[Peter_J]

I could ask you the same thing. Why hasn’t the RCC joined the Anglican Communion or with the Orthodox for example? The differences may be minor, but that doesn’t mean we don’t consider them important.

I was born Catholic and don’t believe it would be right to go over to, say, EOy – or OOy, etc etc.

On the other hand, I don’t try to make non-Catholics become RC.

 

[rcwitness]

Plus, there are more Catholics than all other Christians combined!

 

[PJM]

I was born Catholic and don’t believe it would be right to go over to, say, EOy – or OOy, etc etc.

On the other hand, I don’t try to make non-Catholics become RC.

Peter, may I ask why not:shrug:

God Bless you

Patrick