Catholics are deluded

[Zundrah]

Ignore the threads title - I just wanted to get your attention!?
A mormon friend of mine sent me this after I asked her if the catholic covenents I found on the web were official; (I highlighted what she said in red)

As I see it:

The Catholic Church continues to believe they have the authority to administrate the kingdom/
The Protestents and all their decendent churches: protested that the catholic church had lost this authority and could not agree on doctrines so split into many different churches.
Our church (The Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints - Yes I’m a Saint and so are all the members of my church) claims that the Catholic church no longer has the authority of the original church as it had split and revolted against the authority of John and its priests and leaders mixed the philosophies of men with recorded scripture in the bible (a dead church). That the protestants did the best that they could to revive the old teachings of the church but did not have the devine authorship to do so, and that our church is lead by a living prophet who by the visitation of Jehova, Elohim, Peter James and John was given the keys of the kingdom in the last days before the second coming.

So any way this is what I sent her before hand;
“This is the official Catholic Covenants! Apparently…
Can you check for me if this is actually genuine? Please?”

1. Jesus Christ is the final covenant God made with man.
2. When God makes a covenant, He makes it with Himself, and He promises to fulfill it. He is the author and the finisher of the covenant. The covenant consists of the promises made as part of that covenant.
3. Every promise Jesus made when He was here on earth was part of that covenant. He is the Word. Everything He said is part of that covenant.
4. Jesus promised to Peter that He would build His church on that rock in Matthew 16.
5. In Matthew 16:13-20, the Greek distinguishes between when Jesus is speaking to all the disciples and to Peter alone.
6. Therefore certain promises were made to Peter apart from the rest of the disciples.
7. Jesus referred to giving Peter the keys, a reference to Isaiah 22-22, where there is the promise of the office of steward.
8. Jesus therefore gave Peter primacy over the other disciples.
9. This can be observed in the Gospels and the book of Acts, where Peter is generally mentioned first. He also speaks more than the other disciples.
10. Peter directed church activity in Acts 1:15 following. Peter gave the first Christian sermon in Acts 2:14. This primacy was clearly recognized by the other disciples. There are numerous examples of this in the book of Acts.
11. Paul recognized the primacy. In Galatians 1:18 he went to Jerusalem and visited Cephas (=Peter) only.
12. Jesus made an everlasting covenant, meaning that although Peter died, the office would continue. We see succession of apostles started in Acts 1 by Peter.
13. The covenant being everlasting, its promises are also everlasting. Therefore the office continues today.
14. There are repeated warnings in Scripture against schismatics and heretics. We see this in the early church fathers as well. Paul warns against those bringing a different Gospel in Galatians 1:6-9, for example.
15. There is therefore a divinely authorized bishopric which developed into the Papacy.
16. Neither Luther nor Calvin nor any other reformer was authorized to bring reform to the Catholic church.
17. Jesus said, “he who receives you, receives me, and he who receives me, receives him who sent me.” This was spoken to the apostles, the forebears of the bishops of the Church.
18. Jesus promised to be with us always. He does not abandon us, but He sent His Holy Spirit to guide and direct us and the Church.
19. This is all part of the Covenant Jesus made at the cross.
20. Jesus made a number of parables in which a man goes away and leaves a steward in charge. This is no coincidence. Jesus went away and left a steward in charge.
21. To reject the Church is to reject Jesus. To reject the Pope then is to reject the one He put in charge.

So what does she mean by saying “The Catholic Church continues to believe they have the authority to administrate the kingdom”?

 

[codebilly]

Ignore the threads title - I just wanted to get your attention!?
A mormon friend of mine sent me this after I asked her if the catholic covenents I found on the web were official; (I highlighted what she said in red)

As I see it:

The Catholic Church continues to believe they have the authority to administrate the kingdom/
The Protestents and all their decendent churches: protested that the catholic church had lost this authority and could not agree on doctrines so split into many different churches.
Our church (The Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints - Yes I’m a Saint and so are all the members of my church) claims that the Catholic church no longer has the authority of the original church as it had split and revolted against the authority of John and its priests and leaders mixed the philosophies of men with recorded scripture in the bible (a dead church). That the protestants did the best that they could to revive the old teachings of the church but did not have the devine authorship to do so, and that our church is lead by a living prophet who by the visitation of Jehova, Elohim, Peter James and John was given the keys of the kingdom in the last days before the second coming.

So any way this is what I sent her before hand;
“This is the official Catholic Covenants! Apparently…
Can you check for me if this is actually genuine? Please?”

1. Jesus Christ is the final covenant God made with man.
2. When God makes a covenant, He makes it with Himself, and He promises to fulfill it. He is the author and the finisher of the covenant. The covenant consists of the promises made as part of that covenant.
3. Every promise Jesus made when He was here on earth was part of that covenant. He is the Word. Everything He said is part of that covenant.
4. Jesus promised to Peter that He would build His church on that rock in Matthew 16.
5. In Matthew 16:13-20, the Greek distinguishes between when Jesus is speaking to all the disciples and to Peter alone.
6. Therefore certain promises were made to Peter apart from the rest of the disciples.
7. Jesus referred to giving Peter the keys, a reference to Isaiah 22-22, where there is the promise of the office of steward.
8. Jesus therefore gave Peter primacy over the other disciples.
9. This can be observed in the Gospels and the book of Acts, where Peter is generally mentioned first. He also speaks more than the other disciples.
10. Peter directed church activity in Acts 1:15 following. Peter gave the first Christian sermon in Acts 2:14. This primacy was clearly recognized by the other disciples. There are numerous examples of this in the book of Acts.
11. Paul recognized the primacy. In Galatians 1:18 he went to Jerusalem and visited Cephas (=Peter) only.
12. Jesus made an everlasting covenant, meaning that although Peter died, the office would continue. We see succession of apostles started in Acts 1 by Peter.
13. The covenant being everlasting, its promises are also everlasting. Therefore the office continues today.
14. There are repeated warnings in Scripture against schismatics and heretics. We see this in the early church fathers as well. Paul warns against those bringing a different Gospel in Galatians 1:6-9, for example.
15. There is therefore a divinely authorized bishopric which developed into the Papacy.
16. Neither Luther nor Calvin nor any other reformer was authorized to bring reform to the Catholic church.
17. Jesus said, “he who receives you, receives me, and he who receives me, receives him who sent me.” This was spoken to the apostles, the forebears of the bishops of the Church.
18. Jesus promised to be with us always. He does not abandon us, but He sent His Holy Spirit to guide and direct us and the Church.
19. This is all part of the Covenant Jesus made at the cross.
20. Jesus made a number of parables in which a man goes away and leaves a steward in charge. This is no coincidence. Jesus went away and left a steward in charge.
21. To reject the Church is to reject Jesus. To reject the Pope then is to reject the one He put in charge.

So what does she mean by saying “The Catholic Church continues to believe they have the authority to administrate the kingdom”?

There are no protestant priests. They make no priestly vow. The vow of the catholic priest is the same vow (Covenant) of Jesus, specifically, to surrender one’s life in the service of God the Father for the salvation of souls, even at the expense of one’s real body and real blood.

No vow. No priesthood.

That is why the Church has the ultimate authority as it is the only church maintaining Christ’s command, “Do this in remembrance of Me”. As I’ve said on many posts, “Do this” includes not only the command to bless and consecrate bread and wine, but includes the making of the priestly vow, which is the same vow (covenant) made by the Blessed Savior at the Last Supper.

 

[CentralFLJames]

It’s hard to say exactly without seeing context.

It is true that the Catholic Church has the power of “loosing and binding” on all things on earth within Christ’s Church - which is the Kingdom of Jesus on earth.

That means The Church has the power to do everything to administer His Church on earth - including administering the sacraments (esp. eucharist, and forgive sins) as well as ordaining new clergy and setting all its disciplines and to teach and interpret God’s Word - both written (Bible) and by Tradition.

BTW - no one ever had the authority to declare the “church” lost its authority. That’s circular. Only God has that authority - not Joseph Smith nor Luther. None of these men ever showed a sign that God told them to reform His Church and I expect they and those who supported and abetted them in the early days are in hell now unless God showed them a Mercy He did not show similar men who rebelled against His Church (ref. Numbers 16, Korah’s Rebellion - He and his men were incinerated by God in punishment).

What miracle did Joseph Smith claim to perform besides being able to hide 70 lbs plates of gold in his hat without ripping a whole in the bottom while he alleged to reading and translating the new Mormon books?

James

 

[Saintlucy]

So what does she mean by saying “The Catholic Church continues to believe they have the authority to administrate the kingdom”?

Christ came to earth to establish His kingdom which is the Catholic Church. Nothing of what He taught through His apostles has been added to or taken away. He gave authority to the apostles to administer His Kingdom. The successor of Peter, to whom Jesus gave the keys of the Kingdom (the Church) is the Bishop of Rome, the Pope. He is the first among equals, the vicar of Christ and the servant of the servants of God.

I found this article very good.

home.inreach.com/bstanley/kingdom.htm

 

[NHInsider]

As I see it:

So what does she mean by saying “The Catholic Church continues to believe they have the authority to administrate the kingdom”?

Mormon doctrine asserts that the Church apostasized very early (during the Apostolic age) and therefore has never had divine authority since. They believe that Jesus then returned to earth in North America, and that they are the true church.

So essentially, her assessment is correct - we DO believe that the Church has the authority Jesus gave to the Apostles. We reject the heretical position of the “Great Apostasy”

From Patrick Madrid

Mormonism’s claim to be the “restored” church hangs upon there having been a complete apostasy. The late James E. Talmadge, prolific Mormon writer and member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, wrote, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims the restoration of the Gospel, and re-establishment of the Church as of old, in this, the dispensation of the fullness of times. Such restoration and re-establishment, with the modern bestowal of the holy priesthood, would be unnecessary and indeed impossible had the Church of Christ continued among men with unbroken succession of priesthood and power, since the meridian of time [the time of Christ].

“The restored Church affirms that a general apostasy developed during and after the apostolic period, and that the primitive Church lost its power, authority, and graces as a divine institution, and degenerated into an earthly organization only. The significance and importance of this apostasy, as a condition precedent to the re-establishment of the Church in modern times, is obvious. IF THE ALLEGED APOSTASY OF THE PRIMITIVE CHURCH WAS NOT A REALITY, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS IS NOT THE DIVINE INSTITUTION ITS NAME PROCLAIMS”[2] (emphasis added).

Talmadge is correct in evaluating the consequences, of course: if no apostasy, no restoration, and if no restoration, no Mormonism.

 

[Zundrah]

It’s hard to say exactly without seeing context.

It is true that the Catholic Church has the power of “loosing and binding” on all things on earth within Christ’s Church - which is the Kingdom of Jesus on earth.

That means The Church has the power to do everything to administer His Church on earth - including administering the sacraments (esp. eucharist, and forgive sins) as well as ordaining new clergy and setting all its disciplines and to teach and interpret God’s Word - both written (Bible) and by Tradition.

BTW - no one ever had the authority to declare the “church” lost its authority. That’s circular. Only God has that authority - not Joseph Smith nor Luther. None of these men ever showed a sign that God told them to reform His Church and I expect they and those who supported and abetted them in the early days are in hell now unless God showed them a Mercy He did not show similar men who rebelled against His Church (ref. Numbers 16, Korah’s Rebellion - He and his men were incinerated by God in punishment).

What miracle did Joseph Smith claim to perform besides being able to hide 70 lbs plates of gold in his hat without ripping a whole in the bottom while he alleged to reading and translating the new Mormon books?

James

“What miracle did Joseph Smith claim to perform besides being able to hide 70 lbs plates of gold in his hat without ripping a whole in the bottom while he alleged to reading and translating the new Mormon books?” :bounce::whacky::extrahappy:

• I love it! That is the funniest thing I have heard in years!!! -
  Thank for your time!
  P.S. Are the catholic covenents I showed you right?

 

[Zundrah]

Mormon doctrine asserts that the Church apostasized very early (during the Apostolic age) and therefore has never had divine authority since. They believe that Jesus then returned to earth in North America, and that they are the true church.

So essentially, her assessment is correct - we DO believe that the Church has the authority Jesus gave to the Apostles. We reject the heretical position of the “Great Apostasy”

From Patrick Madrid

Thanks for that, she (along with other mormons) claims to be the true church?
Well all I can say is - I DON’T THINK SO!

 

[phoenix3212]

As I see it:

The Catholic Church continues to believe they have the authority to administrate the kingdom/
The Protestents and all their decendent churches: protested that the catholic church had lost this authority and could not agree on doctrines so split into many different churches.
Our church (The Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints - Yes I’m a Saint and so are all the members of my church) claims that the Catholic church no longer has the authority of the original church as it had split and revolted against the authority of John and its priests and leaders mixed the philosophies of men with recorded scripture in the bible (a dead church). That the protestants did the best that they could to revive the old teachings of the church but did not have the devine authorship to do so, and that our church is lead by a living prophet who by the visitation of Jehova, Elohim, Peter James and John was given the keys of the kingdom in the last days before the second coming.

Mormons will usually acknowledge that the Catholic Church was indeed the true church, long ago. But then they say it apostatized. Apparently someone missed the line in Matthew where Jesus said: "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it." Jesus also promised “I am with you always, until the end of the age.” Notice, he didn’t say “I’ll be with you until you apostatize, and then I’ll restore my church.” He promised to be with us forever, not leave us in the dark for 1800 years. And, if he is indeed with us always, we can be assured that the Church he established all those years ago is indeed the true Church and is still going strong on it’s 265th successor to Peter.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Ignore the threads title - I just wanted to get your attention!?
A mormon friend of mine sent me this after I asked her if the catholic covenents I found on the web were official; (I highlighted what she said in red)

As I see it:

The Catholic Church continues to believe they have the authority to administrate the kingdom/
The Protestents and all their decendent churches: protested that the catholic church had lost this authority and could not agree on doctrines so split into many different churches.
Our church (The Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints - Yes I’m a Saint and so are all the members of my church) claims that the Catholic church no longer has the authority of the original church as it had split and revolted against the authority of John and its priests and leaders mixed the philosophies of men with recorded scripture in the bible (a dead church). That the protestants did the best that they could to revive the old teachings of the church but did not have the devine authorship to do so, and that our church is lead by a living prophet who by the visitation of Jehova, Elohim, Peter James and John was given the keys of the kingdom in the last days before the second coming.

So any way this is what I sent her before hand;
“This is the official Catholic Covenants! Apparently…
Can you check for me if this is actually genuine? Please?”

1. Jesus Christ is the final covenant God made with man.
2. When God makes a covenant, He makes it with Himself, and He promises to fulfill it. He is the author and the finisher of the covenant. The covenant consists of the promises made as part of that covenant.
3. Every promise Jesus made when He was here on earth was part of that covenant. He is the Word. Everything He said is part of that covenant.
4. Jesus promised to Peter that He would build His church on that rock in Matthew 16.
5. In Matthew 16:13-20, the Greek distinguishes between when Jesus is speaking to all the disciples and to Peter alone.
6. Therefore certain promises were made to Peter apart from the rest of the disciples.
7. Jesus referred to giving Peter the keys, a reference to Isaiah 22-22, where there is the promise of the office of steward.
8. Jesus therefore gave Peter primacy over the other disciples.
9. This can be observed in the Gospels and the book of Acts, where Peter is generally mentioned first. He also speaks more than the other disciples.
10. Peter directed church activity in Acts 1:15 following. Peter gave the first Christian sermon in Acts 2:14. This primacy was clearly recognized by the other disciples. There are numerous examples of this in the book of Acts.
11. Paul recognized the primacy. In Galatians 1:18 he went to Jerusalem and visited Cephas (=Peter) only.
12. Jesus made an everlasting covenant, meaning that although Peter died, the office would continue. We see succession of apostles started in Acts 1 by Peter.
13. The covenant being everlasting, its promises are also everlasting. Therefore the office continues today.
14. There are repeated warnings in Scripture against schismatics and heretics. We see this in the early church fathers as well. Paul warns against those bringing a different Gospel in Galatians 1:6-9, for example.
15. There is therefore a divinely authorized bishopric which developed into the Papacy.
16. Neither Luther nor Calvin nor any other reformer was authorized to bring reform to the Catholic church.
17. Jesus said, “he who receives you, receives me, and he who receives me, receives him who sent me.” This was spoken to the apostles, the forebears of the bishops of the Church.
18. Jesus promised to be with us always. He does not abandon us, but He sent His Holy Spirit to guide and direct us and the Church.
19. This is all part of the Covenant Jesus made at the cross.
20. Jesus made a number of parables in which a man goes away and leaves a steward in charge. This is no coincidence. Jesus went away and left a steward in charge.
21. To reject the Church is to reject Jesus. To reject the Pope then is to reject the one He put in charge.

So what does she mean by saying “The Catholic Church continues to believe they have the authority to administrate the kingdom”?

I am not sure what this person is saying - the Church does not teach in terms of a Catholic Covenant in this sense. We are Credal in faith. There are certainly NT Covenantial promises through His Church but we don’t teach it in the terms of a covenantal relationship. We are universal in that sense - but through the covenant formed on Peter through Christ’s Church. The Covenant of the new Testament is sealed in the cup of Salvation at the table of the Lord and entered into initially by baptismal promise.

I think what your friend is doing is trying to rearrange Catholic Teachings to conform to a recruitment script that both polemicizes Catholics while pointing to a conventional concept that Mormons invented. Don’t let him/her bend you his way - that’s a strawman tactic.

For the record there are quite a few dozens of references to “covenant” in the Catechism - we just don’t break them out and list them this way in a spread sheet like your friend is trying to do.

If you want to see for yourself go here and type in “covenant” into the search window:
kofc.org/un/catechism/index.action

James

 

[Liraco]

None of these men ever showed a sign that God told them to reform His Church

If we’re going to believe that God decided “I made a mistake, I’ll go tell this one person to fix it all” to start the Mormon church, why not believe Mohamed’s “revelation from God” too? He came a lot earlier than Mr. Smith.

Our Catholic Church’s authority comes from Jesus who proclaimed Peter to be its foundation and so you could trace from Pope Benedict down the ages to Peter.

Just because bad people did bad things using the name of the Church doesn’t mean the Church is evil (unless you want to apply the same thing to Jesus for having picked Judas who betrayed Him).

He came to heal the sick, but don’t judge the medicine by those who abstain from it but by those who take it.

 

[CentralFLJames]

If we’re going to believe that God decided “I made a mistake, I’ll go tell this one person to fix it all” to start the Mormon church, why not believe Mohamed’s “revelation from God” too? He came a lot earlier than Mr. Smith.

Our Catholic Church’s authority comes from Jesus who proclaimed Peter to be its foundation and so you could trace from Pope Benedict down the ages to Peter.

Just because bad people did bad things using the name of the Church doesn’t mean the Church is evil (unless you want to apply the same thing to Jesus for having picked Judas who betrayed Him).

He came to heal the sick, but don’t judge the medicine by those who abstain from it but by those who take it.

Excuse me Liraco - but did you mean to preach to me here as if I support Mormonism or Protestantism? Gracious me - how could you misconstrue my meaning? I thought I made that rather clear - I am a strong conservative Catholic and DO NOT advocate these false disciples and false teachers and utterly reject everything they teach. The Catholic Church has the only one full teaching. The Catholic Church has never taught error and can’t be corrected since we have Christ’s promise that The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail.

Did you respond to the wrong poster?

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

To the OP - I went through all the Catholic Catechism teachings very rapidly looking for a covenantial breakout of teaching. Here are the only CCCs of the very many that reference “covenant” that I think give us the best overall linkage to a covenant sort of view for The Catholic Church. There is a general covenant with all mankind in Genesis promising to restore man. We see this again with Abraham’s descendants and Noah etc. The 10 commandments are also a form of covenant and are really the first 10 written words God ever gave us with His very own finger. Thus the OT covenants are still respected and very much alive. But that covenant is subsumed by the NT and the OT prefigures the NT.

Here is what I think is best to say about it:

Catholic Church Covenant
796 The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist. 234 The Lord referred to himself as the “bridegroom.” 235 The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride “betrothed” to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him. 236 The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb. 237 “Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her.” 238 He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body: 239

This is the whole Christ, head and body, one formed from many . . . whether the head or members speak, it is Christ who speaks. He speaks in his role as the head (ex persona capitis) and in his role as body (ex persona corporis). What does this mean? “The two will become one flesh. This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the Church.” 240 And the Lord himself says in the Gospel: “So they are no longer two, but one flesh.” 241 They are, in fact, two different persons, yet they are one in the conjugal union, . . . as head, he calls himself the bridegroom, as body, he calls himself “bride.” 242

234 Jn 3:29; 235 Mk 2:19; 236 Cf. Mt 22:1-14; 25:1-13; I Cor 6:15-17; 2 Cor 11:2; 237 Cf. Rev 22:17; Eph 1:4; 5:27; 238 Eph 5:25-26; 239 Cf. Eph 5:29; 240 Eph 5:31-32; 241 Mt 19:6; 242 St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 74:4: PL 36, 948-949.

816 “The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it… This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him.” 267

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: “For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.” 268

267 LG 8 § 2;268 UR 3 § 5.

James

 

[steve_b]

Ignore the threads title - I just wanted to get your attention!?
A mormon friend of mine sent me this after I asked her if the catholic covenents I found on the web were official; (I highlighted what she said in red)

As I see it:

The Catholic Church continues to believe they have the authority to administrate the kingdom/
The Protestents and all their decendent churches: protested that the catholic church had lost this authority and could not agree on doctrines so split into many different churches.
Our church (The Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints - Yes I’m a Saint and so are all the members of my church) claims that the Catholic church no longer has the authority of the original church as it had split and revolted against the authority of John and its priests and leaders mixed the philosophies of men with recorded scripture in the bible (a dead church). That the protestants did the best that they could to revive the old teachings of the church but did not have the devine authorship to do so, and that our church is lead by a living prophet who by the visitation of Jehova, Elohim, Peter James and John was given the keys of the kingdom in the last days before the second coming.

We know who founded

• each Protestant denomination and the date,
• Mormonism and their date of origin.
• the Catholic Church and when.

The key is the founder…correct?

• Can Protestants or Mormonism claim to have Jesus as their founder? No
• Can Mormons prove the Catholic Church broke from John? No. It was John himself that recorded Jesus statement to Peter in front of ALL the apostles after the resurrection and before His ascension back to heaven…when Jesus says to Peter alone, feed and rule my sheep. Not just some of them but ALL of them everywhere in the world. Jesus didn’t say that to any other apostle.

Z:

So any way this is what I sent her before hand;
“This is the official Catholic Covenants! Apparently…
Can you check for me if this is actually genuine? Please?”

1. Jesus Christ is the final covenant God made with man.
2. When God makes a covenant, He makes it with Himself, and He promises to fulfill it. He is the author and the finisher of the covenant. The covenant consists of the promises made as part of that covenant.
3. Every promise Jesus made when He was here on earth was part of that covenant. He is the Word. Everything He said is part of that covenant.
4. Jesus promised to Peter that He would build His church on that rock in Matthew 16.
5. In Matthew 16:13-20, the Greek distinguishes between when Jesus is speaking to all the disciples and to Peter alone.
6. Therefore certain promises were made to Peter apart from the rest of the disciples.
7. Jesus referred to giving Peter the keys, a reference to Isaiah 22-22, where there is the promise of the office of steward.
8. Jesus therefore gave Peter primacy over the other disciples.
9. This can be observed in the Gospels and the book of Acts, where Peter is generally mentioned first. He also speaks more than the other disciples.
10. Peter directed church activity in Acts 1:15 following. Peter gave the first Christian sermon in Acts 2:14. This primacy was clearly recognized by the other disciples. There are numerous examples of this in the book of Acts.
11. Paul recognized the primacy. In Galatians 1:18 he went to Jerusalem and visited Cephas (=Peter) only.
12. Jesus made an everlasting covenant, meaning that although Peter died, the office would continue. We see succession of apostles started in Acts 1 by Peter.
13. The covenant being everlasting, its promises are also everlasting. Therefore the office continues today.
14. There are repeated warnings in Scripture against schismatics and heretics. We see this in the early church fathers as well. Paul warns against those bringing a different Gospel in Galatians 1:6-9, for example.
15. There is therefore a divinely authorized bishopric which developed into the Papacy.
16. Neither Luther nor Calvin nor any other reformer was authorized to bring reform to the Catholic church.
17. Jesus said, “he who receives you, receives me, and he who receives me, receives him who sent me.” This was spoken to the apostles, the forebears of the bishops of the Church.
18. Jesus promised to be with us always. He does not abandon us, but He sent His Holy Spirit to guide and direct us and the Church.
19. This is all part of the Covenant Jesus made at the cross.
20. Jesus made a number of parables in which a man goes away and leaves a steward in charge. This is no coincidence. Jesus went away and left a steward in charge.
21. To reject the Church is to reject Jesus. To reject the Pope then is to reject the one He put in charge.

Just curious, where did you get this list?
Z:

So what does she mean by saying “The Catholic Church continues to believe they have the authority to administrate the kingdom”?

When Jesus gave the keys of His kingdom to Peter, when did Jesus say the kingdom that Peter has the keys to, will end?

 

[DawnInTexas]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liraco
If we’re going to believe that God decided “I made a mistake, I’ll go tell this one person to fix it all” to start the Mormon church, why not believe Mohamed’s “revelation from God” too? He came a lot earlier than Mr. Smith.

Our Catholic Church’s authority comes from Jesus who proclaimed Peter to be its foundation and so you could trace from Pope Benedict down the ages to Peter.

Just because bad people did bad things using the name of the Church doesn’t mean the Church is evil (unless you want to apply the same thing to Jesus for having picked Judas who betrayed Him).

He came to heal the sick, but don’t judge the medicine by those who abstain from it but by those who take it.

Excuse me Liraco - but did you mean to preach to me here as if I support Mormonism or Protestantism? Gracious me - how could you misconstrue my meaning? I thought I made that rather clear - I am a strong conservative Catholic and DO NOT advocate these false disciples and false teachers and utterly reject everything they teach. The Catholic Church has the only one full teaching. The Catholic Church has never taught error and can’t be corrected since we have Christ’s promise that The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail.

Did you respond to the wrong poster?

James

It looks to me that what you wrote gave him an additional idea to build on what you wrote.

+Peace In Christ.
-Dawn

 

[CentralFLJames]

It looks to me that what you wrote gave him an additional idea to build on what you wrote.

+Peace In Christ.
-Dawn

Ah, thanks. I was thinking that at first but the last line confused me.

I agree with his conclusions about Mohammad doing the same thing as Joseph Smith did. Both of them had single witness (prophet) testamonies and both built on the teachings of already established books (The Bible). Worse, Joseph Smith actually idolizes Mohammad and looked up to him as a role model in some ways.

“I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’

James

 

[Liraco]

Apologies on the confusion, James!

I should have been more clear that I was speaking to the one who made this thread, and indeed just used part of what you said to build on it. NEVER meant to imply you believed any of that.

I also looked into some of the Mormon beliefs and though they seem to believe in the trinity they are incredibly confused (stating things like the fact that God the Father must have a physical body.)

The last comment I made was more directed at the Mormon friend because it seems that because they see bad people in the Church then it mustn’t be the one true Church.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Apologies on the confusion, James!

I should have been more clear that I was speaking to the one who made this thread, and indeed just used part of what you said to build on it. NEVER meant to imply you believed any of that.

I also looked into some of the Mormon beliefs and though they seem to believe in the trinity they are incredibly confused (stating things like the fact that God the Father must have a physical body.)

The last comment I made was more directed at the Mormon friend because it seems that because they see bad people in the Church then it mustn’t be the one true Church.

No problem. Thanks for clarifying.

Actually Mormons do not believe in the Trinity - they are NOT Christian by any stretch of the imagination. Mormons do not baptise by the Trinitarian formula - they use similar words but mean different things all together .They also practise baptising the dead by a proxy - somone who stands in for a dead person - total heretical stuff.

Here is a bit from CAF’s This Rock:

A: The Catholic Church does not recognize Mormon baptism as valid because, although Mormons and Catholics use the same words, those words have completely unrelated meanings for each religion. The Mormon’s very concept of God is infinitely different from that of Christians—even though they call themselves the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

**Mormons believe that God is only one of many gods who were once men and that each of us in turn can become what God is now. **This process of men becoming gods is said to go back infinitely. But of course none of these gods can be infinite if they are multiple and had a beginning and are actually human beings. In Mormons’ view, both Jesus and the Father are what we would call glorified creatures.

They also believe that Jesus came into existence after the Father, and that the Father and the Son are not one in being. Thus, although they use the phrase “the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,” in their usage this phrase takes on a meaning that is actually polytheistic and pagan rather than trinitarian.

For an in-depth look at this, see the books Inside Mormonism and When Mormons Call by Isaiah Bennett, available from Catholic Answers. For a shorter but equally incisive take, see Fr. Brian Harrison’s two-part series on Mormonism in the April and May-June 2003 issues of This Rock.

More Here: What You Need to Know About the Mormons (But They Probably Won’t Tell You)

Very weird stuff - a PURE cult to be avoided. Mormons will try to bait and switch and claim they are “Christian” since they believe the bible - but BEWARE - it’s a con-game. That is a lead-in to their new book of Mormon which repudiates and supercedes the bible by overlaying all new “correct” teachings. Add in the ever changing doctrines and disciplines that no one seems to know who is in control of them and its a house of mirrors…

James

 

[Zundrah]

SteveB ;
Where did I get this list? I saw two people on a thread - they were goths and they were boasting that they had stole this covenent from a catholic web page. The other guy asked where he got it so I followed the link and copied it.
I now have no memory of what web page it was but I do remember that some how it lead me to this one; catholic answers. It was a long time ago. I sent it to a friend to comfirm if it was real or not. Obviously this friend was mormon - so rather than answer the question, she just rambled on about mormonism…
P.S. I wont let her brain wash me, but she keeps trying to drag me to her “temple” and join her church.:hypno:

 

[Zundrah]

CentralFLJames;
If you want to see for yourself go here and type in “covenant” into the search window:
kofc.org/un/catechism/index.action

I looked and it is loooooong…
So I suppose I should wonder who made that really short one I found…
I 'm glad I made this thread. A lot has come out into the open.:juggle:

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

The “rule of faith” for Catholics is the Church, not the Bible. The Bible, inerrant and infallible, is not to be interpreted outside the Sacred Tradition of the Church or the Magisterium of said Church.

Since faith is Divine and infallible, the rule of faith must be also Divine and infallible; and since faith is supernatural assent to Divine truths upon Divine authority, the ultimate or remote rule of faith must be the truthfulness of God in revealing Himself. But since Divine revelation is contained in the written books and unwritten traditions (Vatican Council, I, ii), the Bible and Divine tradition must be the rule of our faith; since, however, these are only silent witnesses and cannot interpret themselves, they are commonly termed “proximate but inanimate rules of faith”. Unless, then, the Bible and tradition are to be profitless, we must look for some proximate rule which shall be animate or living.newadvent.org/cathen/05766b.htm

If Luther didn’t get it right, or Wycliff, or Westley, Robert Brown (Congregationalist), John Smyth (Baptist), Russell (Jehovah’s Witness), Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science), or Seymour (Azusa Street Revival / Pentecostal) as a return to the one true faith, why Joe Smith? As to the proof of the Gold Plates, why, if Crowderly, Whitmer, and Harris saw the plates, did they leave the Church? This would be absolute proof that Smith was telling the truth and that he was the “One” and that Mormonism was the “true faith”. Instead they were called “evil” by Smith, after, of course, they were good enough to be Smith’s scribes in the translation of the plates. Bring this up with a fellow Mormon and your faith is questioned and you are ostracized. Faith without reason is superstition, something Smith also was a purveyor of.