Catholics Are More Progressive Than The Vatican, And Almost Everyone Else

[gilliam]

Roman Catholic bishops released a draft document this week calling for the church to welcome gays, unmarried couples and people who have divorced. The document is proving to be highly controversial among conservative Catholics, and the official English translation already has had some of the welcoming tone revised out of it. But several public-opinion polls suggest that Catholics in many countries are ready to accept such change — more ready than members of many other religions.

In the U.S, the General Social Survey, which is conducted by the research organization NORC at the University of Chicago, has been asking about divorce and gay rights since the early 1970s, and about cohabitation since 1994 (typically at least every two years). At my request, GSS director Tom W. Smith sent data, broken down by religion, for half a dozen questions. In their answers, American Catholics consistently have shown themselves to be more tolerant of divorce, gay rights and unmarried cohabitation than have American Protestants and Americans overall — especially in recent years.

In all but one of the 14 GSS polls over the last quarter century, more Catholics than Protestants said divorce should be easier to get by law. In every survey since 1973, more Catholics than Protestants said gays should be allowed to speak publicly, teach and have books they wrote available in libraries. (If those questions don’t sound like they go very far by today’s standards, keep in mind that the Vatican isn’t going all that far, either, and that when these questions were asked in 1973, more than a third of Americans didn’t agree — half, in the case of teaching.) Also in each survey, more Catholics than Protestants said gay sex was “not wrong at all.” And all four times the GSS asked whether a couple living together unmarried was acceptable, more Catholics than Protestants said it was.

fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/catholics-are-more-progressive-than-the-vatican-and-almost-everyone-else/

 

[edwest2]

Progress? Church teaching remains Church teaching. The chaos of the last 40 years consisted of social engineering experiments that have created disaster for families, thrown away years of documented research and ignored reality. Only right reason based on timeless truths will allow human beings to live like human beings. 40 years of hammering at a very thick wall will cause parts to crumble and other parts to remain intact.

I put the blame on the father of lies and the vain imaginings of men who believe they can rearrange the social furniture. The Vatican and the Holy Father represent the pillar of truth.

Peace,
Ed

 

[_Abyssinia]

There was a CBS/New York Times poll that came out last year, and when you looked at the percentages, there was with multiple questions, double digit differences comparing results for Catholics who went to Church weekly compared to those that differently.

 

[Joe_5859]

There has been no “official English translation” of the document to my knowledge.

 

[Della]

I believe these are some of the factors involved:

1. Catholics like to think of themselves as compassionate–witnessed by the many religious who quite rightly marched for civil rights in the 60’s. Unfortuntely, much of this compassion has devolved into mere sentimentality, so that anyone who sobs must have a cause worth supporting.
2. Poor catechesis over the last generation. We haven’t been taught basic morality over the last 40 years. It was all love, love, love to the negation of anything else, such as truth.
3. American Catholics want to “fit into” the general culture–to be mainstreamed. The desire to be a success and not be considered “odd” has a lot to do with this.
4. The American Church has become unwieldy and fractured into factions all wanting to control American Catholics’ opinions and behavior.
5. Many who want to ditch Church teaching took over high ranking lay positions, working in the dioceses to push their agenda. They’ve done a good job for orthodox Catholics were marginalized in the onrush to “modernize” the Church.
6. The sex abuse scandal unsettled many who feel if the leadership can be so unsure and unreliable, then they have every right to do what they think best without regard to Church teaching.
7. The changes in leadership at the Vatican has pulled people one way and now seemingly another. People feel like everything is up for grabs.

I predict that when the Church finally restates what it has always taught about same sex marriage, divorce and remarriage, and who can receive communion a lot of people will leave in disgust and confusion. Our pastors need to tell people the truth, especially now. There is no more time for obfusticating or side-stepping by those who simply cannot bring themselves to “hurt” people by telling them what’s what. All this could have been avoided if our leadership had spoken clearly about morality over the last generation. This is the sad result of not doing so.

 

[kenmiller]

Obama has congress blocking his agenda and the Pope has the same with conservative bishops -

Take care,

 

[Usige]

1. Poor catechesis over the last generation. We haven’t been taught basic morality over the last 40 years. It was all love, love, love to the negation of anything else, such as truth.

I’d agree that the factors you list all contribute to the survey results, but I think the second factor about lack of catechesis is a huge part of the problem.

Our pastor was recently talking about how he had to learn the answers in the Baltimore Catechism when he was growing up, now kids in RE learn how to make felt banners. When right and wrong are discussed it seems to be done in the abstract and often couched in language as to not offend anyone. My general perception is that the Catholic position is taught as the best of many possible right answers.

I think one of the other things is the deemphasis on the clergy as having any authority in our lives. The Church in either the person of the bishop or priest is seen in an advisory role and not as an authority.

 

[Robyn_p]

I believe these are some of the factors involved:

1. Catholics like to think of themselves as compassionate–witnessed by the many religious who quite rightly marched for civil rights in the 60’s. Unfortuntely, much of this compassion has devolved into mere sentimentality, so that anyone who sobs must have a cause worth supporting.
2. Poor catechesis over the last generation. We haven’t been taught basic morality over the last 40 years. It was all love, love, love to the negation of anything else, such as truth.

3. American Catholics want to “fit into” the general culture–to be mainstreamed. The desire to be a success and not be considered “odd” has a lot to do with this.

1. The American Church has become unwieldy and fractured into factions all wanting to control American Catholics’ opinions and behavior.
2. Many who want to ditch Church teaching took over high ranking lay positions, working in the dioceses to push their agenda. They’ve done a good job for orthodox Catholics were marginalized in the onrush to “modernize” the Church.
3. The sex abuse scandal unsettled many who feel if the leadership can be so unsure and unreliable, then they have every right to do what they think best without regard to Church teaching.
4. The changes in leadership at the Vatican has pulled people one way and now seemingly another. People feel like everything is up for grabs.

I predict that when the Church finally restates what it has always taught about same sex marriage, divorce and remarriage, and who can receive communion a lot of people will leave in disgust and confusion. Our pastors need to tell people the truth, especially now. There is no more time for obfusticating or side-stepping by those who simply cannot bring themselves to “hurt” people by telling them what’s what. All this could have been avoided if our leadership had spoken clearly about morality over the last generation. This is the sad result of not doing so.

I think you hit the nail on the head. This is what happens when Catholics decide that they care more about the world’s opinion than God’s. :sad_yes:

 

[Justin_Swanton]

I believe these are some of the factors involved:

1. Catholics like to think of themselves as compassionate–witnessed by the many religious who quite rightly marched for civil rights in the 60’s. Unfortuntely, much of this compassion has devolved into mere sentimentality, so that anyone who sobs must have a cause worth supporting.
2. Poor catechesis over the last generation. We haven’t been taught basic morality over the last 40 years. It was all love, love, love to the negation of anything else, such as truth.
3. American Catholics want to “fit into” the general culture–to be mainstreamed. The desire to be a success and not be considered “odd” has a lot to do with this.
4. The American Church has become unwieldy and fractured into factions all wanting to control American Catholics’ opinions and behavior.
5. Many who want to ditch Church teaching took over high ranking lay positions, working in the dioceses to push their agenda. They’ve done a good job for orthodox Catholics were marginalized in the onrush to “modernize” the Church.
6. The sex abuse scandal unsettled many who feel if the leadership can be so unsure and unreliable, then they have every right to do what they think best without regard to Church teaching.
7. The changes in leadership at the Vatican has pulled people one way and now seemingly another. People feel like everything is up for grabs.

I predict that when the Church finally restates what it has always taught about same sex marriage, divorce and remarriage, and who can receive communion a lot of people will leave in disgust and confusion. Our pastors need to tell people the truth, especially now. There is no more time for obfusticating or side-stepping by those who simply cannot bring themselves to “hurt” people by telling them what’s what. All this could have been avoided if our leadership had spoken clearly about morality over the last generation. This is the sad result of not doing so.

On the money. Not the first time either.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

In all but one of the 14 GSS polls over the last quarter century, more Catholics than Protestants said divorce should be easier to get by law. In every survey since 1973, more Catholics than Protestants said gays should be allowed to speak publicly, teach and have books they wrote available in libraries. (If those questions don’t sound like they go very far by today’s standards, keep in mind that the Vatican isn’t going all that far, either, and that when these questions were asked in 1973, more than a third of Americans didn’t agree — half, in the case of teaching.) Also in each survey, more Catholics than Protestants said gay sex was “not wrong at all.” And all four times the GSS asked whether a couple living together unmarried was acceptable, more Catholics than Protestants said it was.

fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/catholics-are-more-progressive-than-the-vatican-and-almost-everyone-else/

Is there any church teaching that says that gay people can’t teach or become authors? Don’t really see a big deal with that. Do I believe there is such thing as gay marriage? Nope. Do I think any type of premarital sex is OK? Nope.
Do I think people who have different sexual inclinations can’t have successful careers teaching or writing literature or anything else they set their minds to do? Sure go for it! I don’t see the big deal with that.

 

[RGCheek]

I believe these are some of the factors involved:

1. Catholics like to think of themselves as compassionate–witnessed by the many religious who quite rightly marched for civil rights in the 60’s. Unfortuntely, much of this compassion has devolved into mere sentimentality, so that anyone who sobs must have a cause worth supporting.
2. Poor catechesis over the last generation. We haven’t been taught basic morality over the last 40 years. It was all love, love, love to the negation of anything else, such as truth.
3. American Catholics want to “fit into” the general culture–to be mainstreamed. The desire to be a success and not be considered “odd” has a lot to do with this.
4. The American Church has become unwieldy and fractured into factions all wanting to control American Catholics’ opinions and behavior.
5. Many who want to ditch Church teaching took over high ranking lay positions, working in the dioceses to push their agenda. They’ve done a good job for orthodox Catholics were marginalized in the onrush to “modernize” the Church.
6. The sex abuse scandal unsettled many who feel if the leadership can be so unsure and unreliable, then they have every right to do what they think best without regard to Church teaching.
7. The changes in leadership at the Vatican has pulled people one way and now seemingly another. People feel like everything is up for grabs.

I predict that when the Church finally restates what it has always taught about same sex marriage, divorce and remarriage, and who can receive communion a lot of people will leave in disgust and confusion. Our pastors need to tell people the truth, especially now. There is no more time for obfusticating or side-stepping by those who simply cannot bring themselves to “hurt” people by telling them what’s what. All this could have been avoided if our leadership had spoken clearly about morality over the last generation. This is the sad result of not doing so.

 

[livingwordunity]

“Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared.” (1 Timothy 4:1-2)

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." (Matthew 7:15)

“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings…” (Hebrews 13:8-9)

 

[Hopalong]

Gay people can pursue whatever they want in the secular world, but to be part of the Church they need to have fully repented. Cardinal Kasper was one of the only cardinals
to give a voice for the desire of the re-married to be able to receive communion, many others were outraged. Yet, many others were willing to discuss gay civil unions and what gifts the gay community has to offer. I am hoping someone will correct me if I’m wrong in that last statement, because the word of God is very clear: Leviticus 18:22: “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; IT IS AN ABOMINATION.”
Romans 1:27: “Likewise, also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.”
Clearly, there is no place for homosexuality in the Church at all. God is the same yesterday today and forever. Any cardinal who would put forth such a suggestion should be put on leave. I can understand providing a road for repentance and reconciliation with our Lord in a compassionate manner, but it has to be made clear that a gay life style is an abomination. Not my words, but God’s words. It leaves one to wonder how many homosexuals may be already in the Church undercover.

 

[CarolNoel]

I believe these are some of the factors involved:

1. Catholics like to think of themselves as compassionate–witnessed by the many religious who quite rightly marched for civil rights in the 60’s. Unfortuntely, much of this compassion has devolved into mere sentimentality, so that anyone who sobs must have a cause worth supporting.
2. Poor catechesis over the last generation. We haven’t been taught basic morality over the last 40 years. It was all love, love, love to the negation of anything else, such as truth.
3. American Catholics want to “fit into” the general culture–to be mainstreamed. The desire to be a success and not be considered “odd” has a lot to do with this.
4. The American Church has become unwieldy and fractured into factions all wanting to control American Catholics’ opinions and behavior.
5. Many who want to ditch Church teaching took over high ranking lay positions, working in the dioceses to push their agenda. They’ve done a good job for orthodox Catholics were marginalized in the onrush to “modernize” the Church.
6. The sex abuse scandal unsettled many who feel if the leadership can be so unsure and unreliable, then they have every right to do what they think best without regard to Church teaching.
7. The changes in leadership at the Vatican has pulled people one way and now seemingly another. People feel like everything is up for grabs.

I predict that when the Church finally restates what it has always taught about same sex marriage, divorce and remarriage, and who can receive communion a lot of people will leave in disgust and confusion. Our pastors need to tell people the truth, especially now. There is no more time for obfusticating or side-stepping by those who simply cannot bring themselves to “hurt” people by telling them what’s what. All this could have been avoided if our leadership had spoken clearly about morality over the last generation. This is the sad result of not doing so.

WOW! Very well stated Della:thumbsup:

 

[Della]

Don’t forget. To quote Pope Francis, “God surprises us”!

.

God can and does surprise us but people never do–human beings have always wanted to excuse themselves for one reason or another.

The Church’s teachings cannot and will not change because they are Christ’s teachings not men’s.

Now, that doesn’t mean that cases cannot be handled with love and respect–they should be, but the truth is always best no matter how hard it might be to face.

People mess up their lives and the Church takes the blame. Of course, if they’d been taught proper morality from childhood, they wouldn’t have messed up their lives, so our leadership must take part of the blame. They can’t ignore sin merely because so many made poor decisions. Being victims of a divided society is also a sad fact, but this too cannot excuse sin–sin, like cancer, must be eliminated not accommodated.

It’s particularly vital to teach the truth when the world is so opposed to the truth. We are reaping a sad harvest. It is going to take generations to bring people back to the truth but it can be done if we keep on teaching and living the truth.

 

[RGCheek]

It’s particularly vital to teach the truth when the world is so opposed to the truth. We are reaping a sad harvest. It is going to take generations to bring people back to the truth but it can be done if we keep on teaching and living the truth.

That is hard to do in view of your earlier point number 4:
“3. American Catholics want to “fit into” the general culture–to be mainstreamed. The desire to be a success and not be considered “odd” has a lot to do with this.”

This really needs to change my leadership or it will change by demographic forces, i.e. Catholics that want to blend with the mainstream culture will lose their faith or fail to pass it down in any meaningful form to the children and grandchildren. The only ones left after several generations will be Catholics who do not want to ‘mainstream’ into our degenerate society.

 

[Julianna]

I’d agree that the factors you list all contribute to the survey results, but I think the second factor about lack of catechesis is a huge part of the problem.

Our pastor was recently talking about how he had to learn the answers in the Baltimore Catechism when he was growing up, now kids in RE learn how to make felt banners. When right and wrong are discussed it seems to be done in the abstract and often couched in language as to not offend anyone. My general perception is that the Catholic position is taught as the best of many possible right answers.

I think one of the other things is the deemphasis on the clergy as having any authority in our lives. The Church in either the person of the bishop or priest is seen in an advisory role and not as an authority.

Gee I wonder why? Oh yeah, Bishops and Priests are…dare I say…are HUMAN. When I was little in the early 60’s and even for my dad who grew up in the 40’s…If Father so and so or Bishop so and so, said it, then it was true and not to be questioned.

When the scandal broke, and even before that…(the priest that refused to marry my parents in '56 because my mother was a Protestant…took off with one of the married women in the parish…2 yrs later…go figure).

The scandal was blamed on the homosexual agenda. Really? I don’t recall call gay pride parades in the 40’s and 50’s…

It is one thing to be an authority, it’s another to be a hypocrite.

I agree poor catechesis is a big issue. Solutions and resolutions are the order of the day. Not finger pointing or bringing down the entire felt industry. One cannot put the “hammer down” now that the horse has left the barn.

I truly believe Pope Francis is on the right track.

 

[Julianna]

That is hard to do in view of your earlier point number 4:
“3. American Catholics want to “fit into” the general culture–to be mainstreamed. The desire to be a success and not be considered “odd” has a lot to do with this.”

This really needs to change my leadership or it will change by demographic forces, i.e. Catholics that want to blend with the mainstream culture will lose their faith or fail to pass it down in any meaningful form to the children and grandchildren. The only ones left after several generations will be Catholics who do not want to ‘mainstream’ into our degenerate society.

Can’t live in a fish bowl…can’t work in a fishbowl…

 

[Neofight]

**I hope my CAF neighbors don’t read more into what I have written. I agree with much of this post, except I think it is applicable to all Catholics, and not just one side of the ideological horizon.

Much of these sweeping generalizations could be used to paint both traditionalist and progressive Catholics.

We really need to look inside, and dialogue rather than argue, with our brothers and sisters in the faith. We are all the one Body of Christ; the ONE holy and apostolic Church!**

I believe these are some of the factors involved:

1. Catholics like to think of themselves as compassionate–witnessed by the many religious who quite rightly marched for civil rights in the 60’s. Unfortuntely, much of this compassion has devolved into mere sentimentality, so that anyone who sobs must have a cause worth supporting.…and the feeling by many if they don’t agree with people on any issue who just happen to be suffering, that there is no obligation to feel compassion for them.
2. Poor catechesis over the last generation. We haven’t been taught basic morality over the last 40 years. It was all love, love, love to the negation of anything else, such as truth.…woefully true, in that the Church’s teaching on Social Justice are ignored by many, if those catechized on the teachings, unless they support all aspects of the group that Social Justice is to be offered to
3. American Catholics want to “fit into” the general culture–to be mainstreamed. The desire to be a success and not be considered “odd” has a lot to do with this.…and many other American Catholics lament even change codified by the Church (i.e, Vatican II), and view those who have accepted it, or came to the Church later are "odd"
4. The American Church has become unwieldy and fractured into factions all wanting to control American Catholics’ opinions and behavior**…undeniably true, except what is failed to be mentioned is that not just progressives have separated themselves, but many traditionalist American Catholics have separated themselves from other American Catholics**.
5. Many who want to ditch Church teaching took over high ranking lay positions, working in the dioceses to push their agenda. They’ve done a good job for orthodox Catholics were marginalized in the onrush to “modernize” the Church.…and many more, as stated earlier, are resistant to legitimate change (Vatican II), and want their own agenda pushed to roll back the Church to 1962.
6. The sex abuse scandal unsettled many who feel if the leadership can be so unsure and unreliable, then they have every right to do what they think best without regard to Church teaching.…this is true, but it is not unique to either progressives or traditionalists.
7. The changes in leadership at the Vatican has pulled people one way and now seemingly another. People feel like everything is up for grabs.…again, this is not exclusive to progressives…many traditionalist feel the same…and even sadder, many progressives and traditionalist members of the laity believe the Church is a democracy, and their “opinions” should be enacted.

I predict that when the Church finally restates what it has always taught about same sex marriage, divorce and remarriage, and who can receive communion a lot of people will leave in disgust and confusion. Sadly, very true…and it won’t be just progressives who leave, just as many traditionalist will leave Our pastors need to tell people the truth, especially now. There is no more time for obfusticating or side-stepping by those who simply cannot bring themselves to “hurt” people by telling them what’s what. All this could have been avoided if our leadership had spoken clearly about morality over the last generation.…and additionally and equally as sad is that in this, the internet age, clear speaking is shouted over by anyone with a WIFI connection. This is the sad result of not doing so.

 

[Della]

Neofight, thank you for your insights. I only want to make clear that I do not categorize “traditionalist” who will not accept VII as “orthodox.” Many on the far “right” are just as wrong-headed as those on the far “left.” Also, many traditionalist of the diehard kind have already left the Church to form their own various sects. Progressives have, by and large, tried to change the Church from within. Their agenda cannot be ignored nor really put on the same level as traditionalist who have little to no voice in diocesan matters. Social issues are important, of course, as I cited in my post, but they cannot be used as an excuse to set aside Church teachings, as so many want to do. All issues have their place, but sin is still sin–that cannot be altered or amended.