Catholics are not saved by Works

[ryanoneil]

Faith justifies initially, but works perfect and complete justification.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

1 Peter 2:7-8 *Therefore, its value is for you who have faith, but for those without faith: “The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone that will make people stumble, and a rock that will make them fall.” They stumble by disobeying the word, as is their destiny. *

Obedience is separate from faith in these verses, and is something that must be added to faith to be justified. “belief” includes “obedience,” and since Jesus commanded us to do good works and endure to the end to be saved, true “faith” in Christ includes doing the “works” that He commanded us to do. It is faith + works that lead to salvation.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[moondweller]

Faith justifies initially, but works perfect and complete justification.

Proof? Faith is perfected (matured), but besides Rome, where is it taught that justification needs completion? It’s God who justifies the ungodly, and that through faith alone (Rom. 4:5).

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

To believe in the Son is to obey Him. To not believe but add works is to not obey the Son, and you will not see life, but the wrath of God remains. It’s called “the obedience of FAITH” (Rom. 1:5; 16:26)

1 Peter 2:7-8 Therefore, its value is for you who have faith, but for those without faith: “The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone that will make people stumble, and a rock that will make them fall.” They stumble by disobeying the word, as is their destiny.

Yes, the word of the cross.

Obedience is separate from faith in these verses, and is something that must be added to faith to be justified.

Rom. 3:26 "…for the demonstration of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law?** Of works?** No, but by a law of faith.

It is faith + works that lead to salvation.

You make this statement because you fail to understand, or believe, the power God has to saved (forever) through of the cross of Christ.1 Cor 1:21 "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

 

[Fidelis]

Originally Posted by Fidelis

If there are many Catholics who “have faith in their own ability to cooperate sufficiently with God to attain salvation” then they are poorly taught in their own Faith. That isn’t what the Church or the Scriptures teach. Poor knowledge of individual Catholics is not the topic here, any more than poor knowledge of individual Protestants is.

And if these works are blocked off by sin, then it becomes a circular argument along the lines of:

*“If you’re saved, works should flow from your faith. Unless, of course, you sin, in which case maybe you’re not saved after all because, well, works aren’t flowing from your faith to give evidence of that faith.” *

This is not the biblical view of how saving faith works. As I pointed out with king David, good works done in faith do not prevent a saved individual from straying far away from God many times. You seem determined to make your own goodness a factor in saving your soul.

On the contrary, often good works DO prevent the saved individual from straying far away from God.

I am not determined at all to “make my own goodness a factor in saving my soul.” As I have repeated over and over and over and over again throughout this thread, the Church and the Scriptures do not teach that, and I don’t beleive that. Let me repeat it again in a futile hope of it sinking in: We are saved by grace through faith, and faith includes obedience.

But not without David’s cooperation. David had the free will to refuse to repent.

Again, this is your own opinion, which finds reason to give credit to ther saved individual, rather than credit to the Savior for saving people!

So David did not have free will to repent and neither do we? :hypno:

We are not “earning” our way into heaven by “not sinning.” We are avoiding losing heaven that is freely given us by God, but is ours to lose.

What’s the difference? ISTM that either way you word it, your theory is that we must be good enough (we must earn) by our deeds (or lack of offenses) to attain salvation.

There is a **HUGE **difference between earning your way into heaven, and *forfeiting *it by refusing to do good and avoiding evil. In fact, we don’t even have to go that that far. In Hebrews (again, addressed to saved believers), all that is necessary to lose heaven is to neglect the grace (and thus salvation) that is offered us (Hebrews 2:3).

 

[guanophore]

And for this reason Catholics look to salvation as a “process” by which works (other than Christ’s on the cross) must be added, and therefore salvation is completed only at the end of one’s life here on earth. But such a notion is unbiblical and hardly Apostolic.

This is a either a misunderstanding or a misrepresentation of Catholic teaching. There is no other “work” besides the work of Christ on the cross that can “save” mankind. We cannot add to His sacrifice by our own work. We can partake of it, and unite our suffering with His, but apart from Him, our efforts are of no avail.

The work of Christ on the cross, and the role of good deeds are not relevant to the concept that salvation is not completed until the Last Day. In fact, this notion is entirely biblical and Apostolic. Those who believe otherwise have not read the writings of the Apostles. Or, perhaps such persons have read the text, but rationalize it’s contents. For example, I had a reformed preacher tell me that this statement of Paul:

1 Cor 9:27
27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

did not really mean he thought he could be disqualified (fail to attain heaven) in fact, he was assured of his salvation. He was just being humble.

Also a way must be found to discount a number of the sayings of Jesus, including this one:

Rev 3:4-5
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life;

How can one’s name be blotted out, if it was not previously written into the book?

He who endures to the end, we are told…will conquer, an their name will not be blotted out.

 

[guanophore]

Proof? Faith is perfected (matured), but besides Rome, where is it taught that justification needs completion?

Luke 14:28
28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

Col 1:24

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

2 Tim 3:16-17
17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Why is it important that we may be complete, and equipped for ever good work, if works are of no value?

James 1:3-4
4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Why be steadfast, if nothing needs to be preserved? If we are OSAS, who needs steadfastness?

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Many stop reading at the end of vs. 9, failing to recognize that the purpose of our salvation is not salvation itself, but that we should walk in the ways of God.

It’s God who justifies the ungodly, and that through faith alone (Rom. 4:5).To believe in the Son is to obey Him. To not believe but add works is to not obey the Son, and you will not see life, but the wrath of God remains. It’s called “the obedience of FAITH” (Rom. 1:5; 16:26)Yes, the word of the cross.Rom. 3:26 "…for the demonstration of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law?** Of works?** No, but by a law of faith.You make this statement because you fail to understand, or believe, the power God has to saved (forever) through of the cross of Christ.1 Cor 1:21 "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Amen! The obedience of faith means living according to one’s belief. If one believes in Christ, then one will “perform works befit of repentance”. The two (works and faith) cannot be separated from one another, and are not separated.

 

[Fidelis]

Taking a break in the action and not responding to anyone in particular, I must make this observation.

Why does it seem that many Protestants, when discussing the issue of salvation, can’t seem to get it out of their heads that Catholics are taught that they have to work their way to heaven? Putting aside the fact that there are many, many poorly catechized Catholics who have this idea (and there are not a few Protestants who fall into this too), once you point out to these Protestants that that is not what the Church teaches, show them from Scripture and official Church teaching, and repeat it numerous times – they still go back to the mantra “Don’t you know you can’t work your way to heaven?” No DUH!!:doh2:

Are these particular Protestant individuals so indoctrinated – even brainwashed – by Protestant literature and teachers that that is what Catholics believe that they can’t even process the facts showing the opposite even when it is placed before them?

It is one thing to disagree on the Protestant/Catholic differences in seeing how faith and works fit into salvation – it’s another thing to mindlessly keep ascribing to the other side something they don’t even believe. Isn’t that the definition of insanity?:hypno:

I can only guess that these particular individuals are so wedded to the totally unbiblical 16th century inventions of OSAS and “faith alone,” that works (good or ill) can only be seen as having NO part in our salvation. As Martin Luther said:

**“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness”

“No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”

“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.”

“The imputation of righteousness we need very much, because we are far from perfect. As long as we have this body, sin will dwell in our flesh. Then, too, we sometimes drive away the holy spirit; we fall into sin, like Peter, David, and other holy men. Nevertheless we may always take recourse to this fact, that our sins are covered, and that God will not lay them to our charge. Sin is not held against us for Christ’s sake.”

“your sin cannot cast you into hell”

“No sin can harm me” **

End of rant. Thank you. Carry on.:tiphat:

 

[ryanoneil]

Proof? Faith is perfected (matured), but besides Rome, where is it taught that justification needs completion? It’s God who justifies the ungodly, and that through faith alone (Rom. 4:5). To believe in the Son is to obey Him. To not believe but add works is to not obey the Son, and you will not see life, but the wrath of God remains. It’s called “the obedience of FAITH” (Rom. 1:5; 16:26)Yes, the word of the cross.Rom. 3:26 "…for the demonstration of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law?** Of works?** No, but by a law of faith.You make this statement because you fail to understand, or believe, the power God has to saved (forever) through of the cross of Christ.1 Cor 1:21 "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Mat 10:22, 24:13 Mark 13:13 You will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. the demonstration of whether or not one is saved is whether or not the person “endures to the end,” you can never know that you are saved until “the end,” that is, when you die.

James 2:24* See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. *a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification. Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham.

If you want to call it “the obedience of FAITH” so be it. The faith we have must be a repentant faith, not just an intellectual faith that believes in God. Repentance is not just a thought process (faith), but an act (work) by which we ask God for His mercy and forgiveness.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Nick_Jones]

Faith justifies initially, but works perfect and complete justification.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

1 Peter 2:7-8 *Therefore, its value is for you who have faith, but for those without faith: “The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone that will make people stumble, and a rock that will make them fall.” They stumble by disobeying the word, as is their destiny. *

Obedience is separate from faith in these verses, and is something that must be added to faith to be justified. “belief” includes “obedience,” and since Jesus commanded us to do good works and endure to the end to be saved, true “faith” in Christ includes doing the “works” that He commanded us to do. It is faith + works that lead to salvation.

Peace,

Ryan

Faith plus OUR works saves us?

Titus 3:4-6
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior…

 

[Nick_Jones]

Faith justifies initially, but works perfect and complete justification.

Could you provide some biblical support for this view of yours? Thanks.

 

[teachccd]

Faith plus OUR works saves us?

Titus 3:4-6
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior…

Your emphasis on our baptism as a requirement for salvation, as is exhibited in the scripture you quoted, does not negate Matthew 25:31-46. James really makes it clear as crystal that faith without works is dead. So, you are correct in that our self righteousness does not save us but faith, working through love, (Galatians 5:6) saves. Faith, hope, love…these three remain and the greatest of these is love…1 Cor 13

So yes, faith and works saves us. You may need to take this up with James. He started this when he understood Christ and wrote a chapter in his letter on this. Was James Catholic??? Hmmmm…teachccd

 

[Fidelis]

Faith plus OUR works saves us?

Titus 3:4-6
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior…

If this verse was the whole Bible, you would be right. But it’s not.

One cannot simply take a verse like this and ignore/explain away 20 others plus whole chapters like Matthew 24 and James 2 that directly oppose Protestant tradition on this subject.

The historical and orthodox approach is to apply the ENTIRE Gospel. That’s why the Catholic Church is the only Full Gospel Church.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The one thing we can be sure of is that faith alone doesn’t save us because the only time in the whole bible that “Faith” and “Alone” are used together as “Faith alone” is in James 2:24 where the scriptures say that we are not saved by “Faith alone” but by works!

There is no way to escape this direct truth that the Holy Spirit inspired James to write that is in holy scripture.

Catholics believe God the Holy Spirit when he says that and they believe the Bible.

Protestants do not.

Case Closed!

 

[Nick_Jones]

Your emphasis on our baptism as a requirement for salvation, as is exhibited in the scripture you quoted, does not negate Matthew 25:31-46. James really makes it clear as crystal that faith without works is dead. So, you are correct in that our self righteousness does not save us but faith, working through love, (Galatians 5:6) saves. Faith, hope, love…these three remain and the greatest of these is love…1 Cor 13

So yes, faith and works saves us. You may need to take this up with James. He started this when he understood Christ and wrote a chapter in his letter on this. Was James Catholic??? Hmmmm…teachccd

You have completely ignored the verse I provided that clearly tells us that faith plus our good works were NOT the basis of salvation, but instead it is all about God’s mercy. If the RC view of mercy is that we must earn mercy by doing enough good works to “prove” that our faith is worthy of salvation, then you have redefined “mercy” in a way that turns “mercy” into “bondage.” Either God is merciful on those whom He intends to save, and He saves them for free… or He forces them to work for their salvation. It can’t be both, for the two views are not at all compatible.

 

[Nick_Jones]

The one thing we can be sure of is that faith alone doesn’t save us because the only time in the whole bible that “Faith” and “Alone” are used together as “Faith alone” is in James 2:24 where the scriptures say that we are not saved by “Faith alone” but by works!

There is no way to escape this direct truth that the Holy Spirit inspired James to write that is in holy scripture.

Catholics believe God the Holy Spirit when he says that and they believe the Bible.

Protestants do not.

Case Closed!

Well at least you are being honest. There are relatively few RC’s who will admit that they believe that James teaches that we are saved by faith plus our good works.

 

[Nick_Jones]

If this verse was the whole Bible, you would be right. But it’s not.

One cannot simply take a verse like this and ignore/explain away 20 others plus whole chapters like Matthew 24 and James 2 that directly oppose Protestant tradition on this subject.

The historical and orthodox approach is to apply the ENTIRE Gospel. That’s why the Catholic Church is the only Full Gospel Church.

Could you explain how Matt. 24 and James 2 directly oppose Protestant tradition? Thanks.

 

[Fidelis]

Could you explain how Matt. 25 and James 2 directly oppose Protestant tradition? Thanks.

The 16th century Protestant tradition spoken of is that works play absolutely no part in our salvation

Matthew 25:31-46 (I mistakenly said 24) makes clear we will be judged by what we do don’t do.

James 2 has been explained in this thread numerous times. I’m getting tired of repeating myself.

Many other passages could be cited (and then also ignored ).

 

[teachccd]

You have completely ignored the verse I provided that clearly tells us that faith plus our good works were NOT the basis of salvation, but instead it is all about God’s mercy. If the RC view of mercy is that we must earn mercy by doing enough good works to “prove” that our faith is worthy of salvation, then you have redefined “mercy” in a way that turns “mercy” into “bondage.” Either God is merciful on those whom He intends to save, and He saves them for free… or He forces them to work for their salvation. It can’t be both, for the two views are not at all compatible.

Did you email or fax or however you could get to James to tell him how wrong both he and I are? I’m sure that the inspired writer would love to hear how much your interpretation of Scripture outweighs God’s inspiration of his letter.

Also, the Roman Catholic’s view has NEVER been that we earn mercy. Please do not invalidate your position by posting ridiculous propaganda. Have you read Philippians 2 verse 12? Hmmmm…Now with Matthew 25:31-46, James 2:24-26 and Paul in the verse just given you have a problem with three inspired writers besides the grief that I give you on this forum.

So now don’t be like me and “ignore” the verses that I give you. It would not be a very good example for me.

Incidentally, your verse did show the necessity of baptism for salvation, Titus 3:5 is very clear on that…God Bless…teachccd

 

[moondweller]

Fidelis:

If there are many Catholics who “have faith in their own ability to cooperate sufficiently with God to attain salvation” then they are poorly taught in their own Faith.

But it is still taught by Rome that salvation is finally attained through a cooperative, obedient effort on the part of a Catholic and not simply “through faith” in the efficacy of Christ’s work on the cross alone. Your argument that works done by the faithful Catholic in this lifetime are the result of the empowerment of God is immaterial. God doesn’t save anyone based on those works (even if they were His through you). He saves based on Christ’s redemptive work on the cross only. Christ and His sacrificial (substitutionary) work on the cross is the object of salvation faith. The cross was the message the Apostles took to the world:1 Cor 1:23 “but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ (i.e., His crucifixion) the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

1 Cor 2:2 "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."The saved (aka “the righteous”) are to walk/live by faith (Rom. 1:17; 2 Cor. 5:21), but it’s not the “walk” that saves, saved, or ever will save them. Whether God empowers them to perform good works or not is not the issue of salvation. God saves based on one Man’s work, and His work alone. And that work He “finished” two thousand years ago. We benefit eternally from His work through faith in Him. God Himself saves (an all inclusive word for: justification, sanctification, redemption, regeneration, glorification, etc., etc.) the sinner when he turns from unbelief to belief in the Son and His sacrificial work on his behalf. In regards to faith, Christ crucified was the Apostolic message.

When God saves, He is able to save completely because the cross released Him from any and all restrictions which sin had imposed (Jn. 1:29). Salvation is a faith issue, not a sin issue. It was the message of the cross that Christ commissioned His Apostles to take to the world and to be believed for salvation:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Acts 26:18 “to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God (this is what it means to “repent”), that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’”

Let me repeat it again in a futile hope of it sinking in: We are saved by grace through faith, and faith includes obedience.

Repeat it again and again, but salvation faith is personal belief in Christ’s obedience, even His death on a cross on your behalf (Phil. 2:8).

But none of this makes sense to you because Catholic theologians and apologists have surgically removed the substitutionary value of the cross of Christ, ergo, the only way salvation can be made personal for you is by adding meritorious works and rendering salvation the end product of a cooperative life effort between God and you (I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard a Catholics say, “Christ did His part now I must do mine”). But no matter what kind of spin you put on it (e.g., God gives us the graces to do the works), you’re presenting a salvation based on personal merit rather than the sole work Christ Himself finished two thousand years ago.

I wonder if there were those in Galatia who responded to Paul by saying that they believed God provides them with the “graces” to endure the pain of circumcision. Because they believed enduring the pain of circumcision increased their “initial” justificaition. And through circumcision they partake of His suffering. In other words, they rathionalized that they weren’t being circumcised according to “the Law” (because we all know that no one is justified by works of law) but according to God’s “graces.” However, no matter what kind of spin they could put on it, it’s still “another gospel.”

 

[moondweller]

guanophore:

This is a either a misunderstanding or a misrepresentation of Catholic teaching. There is no other “work” besides the work of Christ on the cross that can “save” mankind. We cannot add to His sacrifice by our own work. We can partake of it, and unite our suffering with His, but apart from Him, our efforts are of no avail.

You can no more partake of His sacrificial work on the cross than you can partake in the building of a house you bought on the market. Oh, you can go around saying things like, “we partake in the building of it by living in it.” Or, “we partake in the building of it by painting it every five years, doing the gardening and fixing the plumbing.” But the truth is it was the builder’s sweat and blood efforts alone that built the house. It was completed when you moved in. And that’s the way it is with salvation. The work was “finished” by Another and through faith you move in and eternally enjoy the benefits of another Man’s labor.

That’s why in the early years of the church the Eucharist was considered a “thank offering” and not a sin offering.

 

[ryanoneil]

Faith plus OUR works saves us?

Titus 3:4-6
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior…

He is refering to baptism. And we can lose our salvation after baptism. I didn’t think we were having a OSAS conversation here.

Peace,

Ryan