Catholics are not saved by Works

[ryanoneil]

Could you provide some biblical support for this view of yours? Thanks.

Sure. But first I want to say a few things about faith.

Heb 11:6 *But without faith it is impossible to please him, for anyone who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. *without faith we cannot please God. But faith alone does not justify a person. If you continue reading everyone mentioned after this verse proved their faith by what they did.

Eph. 2:8-9 Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first.

Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 Repentance is not just a thought process (faith), but an act (work) by which we ask God for His mercy and forgiveness.

John 3:36; Rom. 1:5, 6:17; 15:18; 16:26; 2 Cor. 9:13; 1 Thess. 1:3; 2 Thess. 1:11; 1 Peter 2:7-8; Heb. 5:9; cf. Rev. 3:10; Ex. 19:5 this faith must also be an “obedient faith” (as moondweller pointed out) and a “work of faith.” Obedience means persevering in good works to the end.

James 4:17 So for one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, it is a sin.

James 2:15-17 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:18 *Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. *

James 2:21-22 *Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. *

James 2:25- 26 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Hope that helps.

Ryan

 

[Nick_Jones]

He is refering to baptism. And we can lose our salvation after baptism. I didn’t think we were having a OSAS conversation here.

Peace,

Ryan

Hi Ryan,

Is it referring to WATER baptism, or some other type pf immersion? Do you think the bible supports the notion that a saved person could end up going to hell (lose salvation)?

 

[Nick_Jones]

Did you email or fax or however you could get to James to tell him how wrong both he and I are? I’m sure that the inspired writer would love to hear how much your interpretation of Scripture outweighs God’s inspiration of his letter.

I haven’t said that James was wrong. I believe that the bible is the inerrant word of God and that Scripture doesn’t contradict other Scripture. So I’ll challenge you to argue your way out of your conflicting interpretation of Scripture:

Who got it right, James, or Paul?

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Rom. 4:1-6
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works…

 

[Jerry-Jet]

They are both right. They do not speak of the same type of works.

The works that Paul refers to are man inititated works or works of the law.

The works that James talks about are intitated by God and flow from faith completeing it when man does not raise an impediment to God.

Is man justified by faith? Of course!

Is man justified by faith alone?

Of course not–James tell us that that is not so!

Since it isn’t so then it must follow that the faith that Paul is talking about–while it may exclude works that man may inititate and boast aboutt–

It certainly Doesn’t exclude the God inititated works that flow from faith and complete faith.

So does faith save? Yes! Does faith alone save? No! And lastly are the works that Paul and James are talking about the same kinds of works? of course not for if they were then the bible would contradict itself which it doesn’t do!

So for all the ignorant minds out there that can only fathom either/or propositions I’ve got news for you–James and Paul are both right!

“Faith Alone” people are always wrong because the bible says so!

Why not believe the bible when it plainly and literally tells us that?

Believing that in now way diminshes the fact that faith saves!

How does it minimize faith to say that “Faith alone” does not save?

The same free gift of grace that is faith and comes as a gift from God is just like the same free gift of grace that comes from god and CONTINUES through works that He wills and He inititates–Works that we can’t boast about–that complete faith!

Of course if you truely believe that way you have to also believe that man has free will and can interrupt that process.

You have to believe that god allows man enough free will so that man can choose to interrupt God’s grace at any time and damn himself!

That doesn’t make God any less sovereign–alloing man the freedom to do something like that!

It does point to the fact of mortal sin and it does point to the fact that “Faith alone” if followed by mortal sin will damn to hell!

That’s the real core of the issue!

Luther, Calvin, and Protestants don’t want to accept that fact because they want the EASIER way of Instanteous only justification that is irrevocable.

Why? Because it’s easier!

On the other side of the coin is there a danger that a Catholic could concentrate so much on works that he does that he could be lost, too?

Yes! Catholics must always realize that faith and grace are free gifts from God–we do nothing to deserve them.

One can have the Instanteous gift of faith that was credited to Abraham as righteousness but still let God’s grace continue to flow through works as evidenced by Rahab the harlot that help the Isareli spies and was justified by those works!

Were the works the thing that saved Rahab?

If you mean only the works without faith the answer would be no–if you mean that she let God continue to work from faith and didn’t impede god’s grace as if flowed through the works of her harboring the israeli spies–the answer would be yes!

So fiaht saves and it would be wrong to say that faith PLUS works saves.

The more perfectly thing to say would be that faith gracefully saves when continuing through god willed works!

That’s not the truth of James OR Paul.

It is the Fullness of Truth that the bible proclaims that is accepted by the Catholic Church!

Don’t ever settle for part of the truth or only the Pauline version of the truth–listen to All the holty spirit has to say in the bible and believe the Fullness of Truth!

“He who has ears to hear–let him hear”!

 

[teachccd]

I haven’t said that James was wrong. I believe that the bible is the inerrant word of God and that Scripture doesn’t contradict other Scripture. So I’ll challenge you to argue your way out of your conflicting interpretation of Scripture:

Who got it right, James, or Paul?

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Rom. 4:1-6
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works…

James 2:20-24

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is uselessd]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22**You see that his faith and **his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"e] and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

I wouldn’t have to argue my way out of anything. James would…

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi Ryan,

Is it referring to WATER baptism, or some other type pf immersion? Do you think the bible supports the notion that a saved person could end up going to hell (lose salvation)?

water baptism and Yes! But I don’t want to get the discussion off topic. If you’d like I could start a new thread about losing salvation.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Are we Catholics saved by works?

Yes. We are.

We as faithful Catholics are saved by the works of Christ.

 

[Nick_Jones]

They are both right. They do not speak of the same type of works.

The works that Paul refers to are man inititated works or works of the law.

The works that James talks about are intitated by God and flow from faith completeing it when man does not raise an impediment to God.

Interesting idea. But where does the bible tell us that there are “man initiated” works and “God initiated” works, and how can we be certain that our works are the right kind?

Is man justified by faith? Of course!

Is man justified by faith alone?

Of course not–James tell us that that is not so!

You are still advocating salvation by faith plus works, which is contrary to Romans 4:1-6

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works…

 

[teachccd]

Interesting idea. But where does the bible tell us that there are “man initiated” works and “God initiated” works, and how can we be certain that our works are the right kind?

You are still advocating salvation by faith plus works, which is contrary to Romans 4:1-6

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works…

Why do you ignore post #65? Please address that scripture in light of the one that you keep quoting…

 

[Nick_Jones]

I wouldn’t have to argue my way out of anything. James would…

If you’re saying that James agrees with you that salvation is by faith plus our good works, then you still have the problem of James contradicting the apostle Paul, who wrote:

Rom. 4:1-6
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works…

Rom.10:1-3
Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.

---

Question: in what manner (in Rom. 10:1-3) were the Israelites seeking to establish their own righteousness?

 

[teachccd]

If you’re saying that James agrees with you that salvation is by faith plus our good works, then you still have the problem of James contradicting the apostle Paul, who wrote:

Rom. 4:1-6
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Again, I’ll repeat myself. Now listen closely as this has gotten by you a couple of times now. Read post #65. James seems to contradict Paul as YOU see it. I have no place in this as it is James’ inspired text that YOU take issue with. James does not agree with me…I agree with James. He is the inspired author of his letter, not me…

 

[Nick_Jones]

Why do you ignore post #65? Please address that scripture in light of the one that you keep quoting…

As I pointed out in post #29 of this thread, James doesn’t contradict Paul.

Paul teaches in several places on the nature of justification.

In James chapter 2, James is teaching on the nature of saving faith.

Since James uses the word, “justified” (James 2:24) lots of RC apologists wrongly assume that James is teaching on the topic of justification. James is not teaching a contrary “pro-works” doctrine of justification… or any other doctrine of justification. James is simply clarifying what is meant by the faith that saves.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Question: in what manner (in Rom. 10:1-3) were the Israelites seeking to establish their own righteousness?

Answer: They were trying to attain it by their own works-- which is exactly what Paul is warning them not to do.

In other words, Paul is saying to not think that they’ve attained any salvation by the works that they’ve done. Paul is saying that they’re attaining their salvation by the works which Christ is doing through them.

In fact, he often goes one step further and warns them that they should not boast about these works which Christ is doing through them or else they will fall into the devils’ snare of thinking they can do these things without God– thinking they can do this purely on their own without God’s help.

 

[teachccd]

As I pointed out in post #29 of this thread, James doesn’t contradict Paul.

Paul teaches in several places on the nature of justification.

In James chapter 2, James is teaching on the nature of saving faith.

Since James uses the word, “justified” (James 2:24) lots of RC apologists wrongly assume that James is teaching on the topic of justification. James is not teaching a contrary “pro-works” doctrine of justification… or any other doctrine of justification. James is simply clarifying what is meant by the faith that saves.

And just what does that saving faith, that James speaks about, consist of??

 

[teachccd]

As I pointed out in post #29 of this thread, James doesn’t contradict Paul.

Paul teaches in several places on the nature of justification.

In James chapter 2, James is teaching on the nature of saving faith.

Since James uses the word, “justified” (James 2:24) lots of RC apologists wrongly assume that James is teaching on the topic of justification. James is not teaching a contrary “pro-works” doctrine of justification… or any other doctrine of justification. James is simply clarifying what is meant by the faith that saves.

Are we not justified by a saving faith??

 

[ryanoneil]

As I pointed out in post #29 of this thread, James doesn’t contradict Paul.

Paul teaches in several places on the nature of justification.

In James chapter 2, James is teaching on the nature of saving faith.

Since James uses the word, “justified” (James 2:24) lots of RC apologists wrongly assume that James is teaching on the topic of justification. James is not teaching a contrary “pro-works” doctrine of justification… or any other doctrine of justification. James is simply clarifying what is meant by the faith that saves.

Where does the Bible make a distinction between true faith and false faith?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Nick_Jones]

And just what does that saving faith, that James speaks about, consist of??

You can read the passage and hopefully learn that even the demons believe that there is one God, but mere intellectual assent to God’s existence is not saving faith. The faith that saves also changes the saved individual and saving faith is made evident by what the faithful do.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Are we not justified by a saving faith??

Exactly!

 

[Nick_Jones]

Where does the Bible make a distinction between true faith and false faith?

Peace,

Ryan

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

The so-called “faith” of the demons obviously cannot save them.

 

[ryanoneil]

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

The so-called “faith” of the demons obviously cannot save them.

Another example please. Belief and faith are not mutually exclusive. I believe there is one Satan, but I certainly don’t have faith in him.

How about Scripture that uses the word “faith”

Peace,

Ryan

P.S. going to bed talk to you tomorrow