Catholics are not saved by Works

[paarsurrey]

we are not saved by faith alone nor works alone.

Hi

I think pure faith and good deeds are essential for being saved. A man walks with two legs, both are essential for being saved.
At least Quran enjoins that perfect belief and good deeds are essential to attract God’s grace/mercy.

[2:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[2:2] Alif, Lam, Mim.
[2:3] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
[2:4] Who believe in the unseen and observe prayer and spend out of what We have provided for them.
[2:5] And who believe in that which has been revealed to thee and that which was revealed before thee and they have firm faith in the hereafter.
[2:6] It is they who follow the guidance from their Lord and it is they who shall prosper.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=2

Thanks

 

[teachccd]

You can read the passage and hopefully learn that even the demons believe that there is one God, but mere intellectual assent to God’s existence is not saving faith. The faith that saves also changes the saved individual and saving faith is made evident by what the faithful do.

Thank you for finally concluding that a saving faith must include good works. They go hand in hand. So merely accepting Christ as your “Personal Lord and Savior” is not enough. Even the demons believe and shutter. So a mere assent of the will is the first “work” if you will and then you must pick up your Cross daily AND FOLLOW Him.

In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus is quite clear that what we do is very necessary as part of our judgement.

So , as you agree, we are justified by a saving faith and a saving faith is only evidenced by good works. So, in conclusion, first grace (the gift), then faith (the acceptance of the gift) and works (utilizing the gift) are all necessary in our belief in Christ.

It’s amazing at what great lengths people wil go to ignore the Letter of James, Matthew 25:31-46 and the many other scriptures that indicate how we are judged by what we do. But Nick, it’s obvious in your post above that you recognize the necessity of good works. Good works animate the faith (as you stated)** as the soul animates the body and that is why James said that without works faith is** dead as is a body without a soul…God Bless…teachccd

 

[Fidelis]

Interesting idea. But where does the bible tell us that there are “man initiated” works and “God initiated” works, and how can we be certain that our works are the right kind?

You are still advocating salvation by faith plus works, which is contrary to Romans 4:1-6

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works…

The number of previous posts containing patient explanation and Scripture citations that must have been ignored to post this is is frankly uncountable.

Please see Post #46.

Posting on this thread like reinventing the wheel every five posts. :banghead:

 

[mikeledes]

Good Works that are meritorious must be performed by a person who is in a state of grace (i.e. justified) and done out of love of God and neighbor. This love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

God bless,
Michael

 

[teachccd]

The number of previous posts containing patient explanation and Scripture citations that must have been ignored to post this is is frankly uncountable.

Please see Post #46.

Posting on this thread like reinventing the wheel every five posts. :banghead:

His WHOLE Bible consists of six verses: Romans 4:1-6.

I wonder if he got a discount for his abridged version??

 

[Nick_Jones]

Thank you for finally concluding that a saving faith must include good works. They go hand in hand. So merely accepting Christ as your “Personal Lord and Savior” is not enough. Even the demons believe and shutter. So a mere assent of the will is the first “work” if you will and then you must pick up your Cross daily AND FOLLOW Him.

I never denied that saving faith is evidenced by good works. BTW, the assent of our will is a work of the Holy Spirit. No one comes to Jesus without being drawn by God first.

In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus is quite clear that what we do is very necessary as part of our judgement.

Yes, those who are under God’s wrath will indeed be judged for what they’ve done.

So , as you agree, we are justified by a saving faith and a saving faith is only evidenced by good works. So, in conclusion, first grace (the gift), then faith (the acceptance of the gift) and works (utilizing the gift) are all necessary in our belief in Christ.

Yes, and no one accepts the free gift unless God changes the will of the one who accepts…so acceptance of God (by sinners) is also the work of God. In the same way, no saved person will have the desire to do good works unless God works to change the will of the saved person, creating the desire to do good.

It’s amazing at what great lengths people wil go to ignore the Letter of James, Matthew 25:31-46 and the many other scriptures that indicate how we are judged by what we do. But Nick, it’s obvious in your post above that you recognize the necessity of good works.

I recognize their necessity ONLY as they (the good works) pertain to demonstrating the faith that lives in the saved person. Although it is clearly important that faith should be evident in the lives of the saved, God hasn’t made salvation contingent upon the good works that faith inspires.

Good works animate the faith

(as you stated)** as the soul animates the body and that is why James said that without works faith is** dead as is a body without a soul…God Bless…teachccd

True. And of course it follows that if our good works have anything to do with what makes us saved, then God is playing a very cruel trick on us, for no one could know how much good works is enough, and we would all live by fear rather than by faith. But God is loving and merciful, thus, as Scripture says, salvation is a free gift (by grace) given on the basis of God-given faith.

 

[ryanoneil]

And of course it follows that if our good works have anything to do with what makes us saved, then God is playing a very cruel trick on us, for no one could know how much good works is enough, and we would all live by fear rather than by faith. But God is loving and merciful, thus, as Scripture says, salvation is a free gift (by grace) given on the basis of God-given faith.

A cruel trick or a blessing?

1 Cor. 3:9 For we are God’s co-workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 ***But they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the word through accompanying signs.) *** this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 Working together, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Why is it impossible for some people not to have a brain large enough to understand that faith that completes itself by God willed works is not faith + works or faith and works but the entirety of faith?

And why is it impossible for poeople not to have brains large enough to understand that that entirety can be disrupted at any point?

What is so hard about that?

And look I’m no exegetical genius but if James tells me that I’m not saved by “Faith Alone” will some of the people who believe in the Literal truth of the bible tell me how James means the exact opposite of what He says?

I don’t believe those people because I believe the bible!

Look it doesn’t make any difference if you’re Catholic or not Catholic–if you just plain old believe the bible you cannot believe that it means 180 degrees directly opposite of what it plainly and literally says!

As long as the bible say that you aren’t saved by “Faith Alone” I’ll believe that until the day I die!

You know Luther just should have trusted his first instincts and threw James out of the bible instead of trying to twist the scriptures to the exact opposite of what he wanted them to say to support his own theology!

For all the Protestants out there I’m just saying this: look you don’t have to be Catholic but at least be intellectually honest enough with yoursef and the brain that God gave you not to reject what the bible says in James 2:24!

 

[Cling2Cross]

Catholics dont teach salvation of works.

But how do I explain this in a beginer apologetic way.

How would you explain it in this way we are not saved by faith alone nore works alone. This is the base of my argument but how would YOU atact this argument from this particular point with a protestant?

If you say that the rituals of the sacraments are necessary for salvation, then you make it by works. These are cermonies by which you are saying that you receive grace. However, it is interesting that this is some kind of grace for works exchange.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (Romans 11:6 KJV)

These are mutually exclusive in salvation.

 

[Fidelis]

If you say that the rituals of the sacraments are necessary for salvation, then you make it by works. These are cermonies by which you are saying that you receive grace. However, it is interesting that this is some kind of grace for works exchange.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (Romans 11:6 KJV)

These are mutually exclusive in salvation.

This line of reasoning has been refuted thoroughly in previous posts in this thread. Several times over. Citing numerous Scripture passages.

Posting a reply in a thread without reading or addressing previous posts is like entering a conversation in process and immediately start spouting off without knowing what has already been said.

 

[Cling2Cross]

This line of reasoning has been refuted thoroughly in previous posts in this thread. Several times over. Citing numerous Scripture passages.

Posting a reply in a thread without reading or addressing previous posts is like entering a conversation in process and immediately start spouting off without knowing what has already been said.

No it has not been dealt with properly. Chill out, too.

 

[Fidelis]

No it has not been dealt with properly. Chill out, too.

Yes it has. Unless to be dealt with properly means regurgitating the same argument and the same Scripture passage an infinite number of times no matter how often it has been addressed.

 

[Cling2Cross]

Yes it has. Unless to be dealt with properly means regurgitating the same argument and the same Scripture passage an infinite number of times no matter how often it has been addressed.

No it hasn’t! (OK, you next)

 

[Nick_Jones]

Good Works that are meritorious must be performed by a person who is in a state of grace (i.e. justified) and done out of love of God and neighbor. This love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

God bless,
Michael

In what sense are good works meritorious when performed while in a state of grace and how does a person attain and remain in this state of grace?

 

[Nick_Jones]

Another example please. Belief and faith are not mutually exclusive. I believe there is one Satan, but I certainly don’t have faith in him.

How about Scripture that uses the word “faith”

Peace,

Ryan

P.S. going to bed talk to you tomorrow

Before his conversion on the road to Damascus, Saul was a man of (Jewish) faith. Although Saul put his faith into action, Saul didn’t know God. His faith was futile because the god he served never existed.

 

[Nick_Jones]

And look I’m no exegetical genius but if James tells me that I’m not saved by “Faith Alone” will some of the people who believe in the Literal truth of the bible tell me how James means the exact opposite of what He says?

I don’t believe those people because I believe the bible!

Look it doesn’t make any difference if you’re Catholic or not Catholic–if you just plain old believe the bible you cannot believe that it means 180 degrees directly opposite of what it plainly and literally says!

As long as the bible say that you aren’t saved by “Faith Alone” I’ll believe that until the day I die!

You know Luther just should have trusted his first instincts and threw James out of the bible instead of trying to twist the scriptures to the exact opposite of what he wanted them to say to support his own theology!

For all the Protestants out there I’m just saying this: look you don’t have to be Catholic but at least be intellectually honest enough with yoursef and the brain that God gave you not to reject what the bible says in James 2:24!

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

The problem with lifting verses out of their context is clearly seen here. By disregarding the context, you have wrongly assumed that James is talking about the doctrine of justification. But as I’ve already pointed out to you, James can’t be teaching contrary to the apostle Paul, unless Scripture contradicts Scripture!

Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that your (out of context) conclusion is correct–James is teaching on the doctrine of justification, and that faith apart from works doesn’t justify. Now let’s look at another verse:

Rom. 9:30-32
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

There are numerous RC’s who see the word, “justified” in James 2:24 and infer from this, that James must be teaching on the doctrine of justification. Do you think it’s reasonable to assume that every time a person uses the word, “justified” they must be referring to the doctrine of justification?

 

[Nick_Jones]

This line of reasoning has been refuted thoroughly in previous posts in this thread. Several times over. Citing numerous Scripture passages.

Can you tell us which specific posts have refuted this line of reasoning? Thanks.

 

[Nick_Jones]

A cruel trick or a blessing?

1 Cor. 3:9 For we are God’s co-workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 ***But they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the word through accompanying signs.) *** this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 Working together, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Peace,

Ryan

Hi Ryan,

A blessing for those who, by faith in Jesus, have been freed from false opinions concerning the role of their works, and a curse for those who are relying on some man-centered scheme of faith plus works = salvation.

The biblical formula is clear:** if it is by faith, then it is not by works.**

To imagine otherwise is to view God as a cruel taskmaster who demands some unknowable amount of work on the part of every individual. It would be impossible to live by faith in the goodness and mercy of God if, in the end, our salvation is dependent upon our own good works…as if God’s mercy and grace were insufficient without adding to it, our own supposed merits!

 

[Cling2Cross]

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

The problem with lifting verses out of their context is clearly seen here. By disregarding the context, you have wrongly assumed that James is talking about the doctrine of justification. But as I’ve already pointed out to you, James can’t be teaching contrary to the apostle Paul, unless Scripture contradicts Scripture!

Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that your (out of context) conclusion is correct–James is teaching on the doctrine of justification, and that faith apart from works doesn’t justify. Now let’s look at another verse:

Rom. 9:30-32
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

There are numerous RC’s who see the word, “justified” in James 2:24 and infer from this, that James must be teaching on the doctrine of justification. Do you think it’s reasonable to assume that every time a person uses the word, “justified” they must be referring to the doctrine of justification?

The word “justified” (greek - dikaioo) has a couple of meanings and does not at all mean in James what it means in Romans…

δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once.

In James 2 - this is the meaning…

1. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered.

This is clear from the passage…

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can **that faith **save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; **show me your faith **without the works, and **I will show you my faith **by my works. - James 2:14-18

The below definition is the proper rendering for Romans 3, 4, 5, etc…

…to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

This is the meaning in the context which contains such courtroom language as Judge - Charge - Law - Jurisdiction - Impute - Condemnation - Justification - Remission…etc. Therefore, in the context of Romans - you have God declaring one to be righteous as they are united/married to Christ by faith - IN THE HEART PRIOR TO ANY OUTWORKING OF FAITH…

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness…[justification], and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. (Romans 10:10 NAS95)

and so one passes from death to life and has no more condemnation…

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1 NAS95)

Therefore, **having been justified **by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (Romans 5:1 NAS95)

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (John 5:24 NAS95)

And those whom He justified, he will glorify!!

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:30 NAS95)

There is plenty more where that came from…James is speaking about the evidence of our faith - the showing of one to have saving faith…Romans is speaking of one being declared righteous on the basis of their receiving the righteousness of Christ.

C2C

 

[Fidelis]

No it hasn’t! (OK, you next)