Catholics are not saved by Works

[mgrfin]

And if you use your free will to do good or to choose what is good, while John Doe uses his free will to reject God’s grace, you are saved ultimately by your own goodness, and John Doe is damned by his lack of goodness. How is this any different from moral elitism?

We are not saved by our own goodness. We begin the process of salvation by cooperation with actual grace which God sends us.
God initiates; we can respond.

Do you want to insist that that cooperation via free will is ‘goodness’? Nonsense. At this point of cooperation we are ‘not good’ - we are in the state of sin. How could we be good and be in sin?

No man can have faith in Christ unless the grace of God first draw him. It is for man to accept or to reject this grace. If he accepts it, he is led on to make a true act of faith, that is, he is led by God to believe what has been divinely revealed. With this faith, he is led to hope in God and to love him, and to turn his heart away from sin. Thus, under the influence of actual grace, a soul is prepared for Justification. Hence, it is not a matter of faith only, but of faith which leads to hope and love, and genuine sorrow; yet, faith is the foundation of the whole process. All is now ready for incorporation in Christ, which will bring life to the soul.

Salvation is a process, and God is the Prime Mover. He is Good. We have no goodness until God pours his sanctifying grace in our souls. He sees that transformed soul, when it is done, filled with charity, and the Holy Spirit. Then you can ask the question, ‘are we good’?

We are certainly justified at this point, and then you can use your own terminology about goodness to ask your questions.

Are we predestined? Are we forced to cooperate? Are we saved even though our souls remain in sin? Calvin and Luther might say so, but we are not Calvinists or Lutherans. They see us as corrupt regardless of our justification; we see ourselves as thoroughly washed in the Blood of Christ, and regenerated, redeemed, with souls then as pure as the souls of Adam and Eve before the Fall.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

I will most likely not be online tomorrow. I wish everyone a a very blessed Wednesday!

Good Night and God bless,
Michael

It is still Tuesday in the U.S., but we take heart in your message.

 

[mgrfin]

QUOTE]

Nick,

What is the name of your Church?

What denomination do you belong to?

peace

 

[guanophore]

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

I think this is not the best example of pre-venient grace, because the ones to whom he writes are already disciples. Granted, they came to believe through grace, but clearly they had already become believers, and not everyone exposed to prevenient grace becomes a disciple.

I think a better one would be the people of Athens:

Acts 17:22-24

22 So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-op’agus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.

These people intuitively know that there is a higher power, and are disposed to turn toward that power, though they do not know who He is.

 

[Nick_Jones]

What I really want to know is where in the Bible does it states that “regeneration” must precede faith? There is not a single verse in the Bible that states this? Yes, God must intervene, He must take the initaitive. But where in the Bible is this divine initiative equated with regeneration?

God Bless,
Michael

Jesus said, “You must be born again.” Regeneration is what makes room for faith since “no one seeks God” and “all have turned away”. The lack of faith in God is the NATURAL state of fallen mankind. Fallen man doesn’t believe because he WILL NOT believe. You are suggesting that faith can precede regeneration. How is that possible?

 

[Nick_Jones]

Nick Jones;3194306:

QUOTE]

Nick,

What is the name of your Church?

What denomination do you belong to?

peace

I attend a non-denominational church called ‘FAITH BIBLE CHURCH.’

 

[mgrfin]

Jesus said, “You must be born again.” Regeneration is what makes room for faith since “no one seeks God” and “all have turned away”. The lack of faith in God is the NATURAL state of fallen mankind. Fallen man doesn’t believe because he WILL NOT believe. You are suggesting that faith can precede regeneration. How is that possible?

It must happen, even in your church, all the time.

A man is studying Christianity. Let’s say he is going to be baptised in two weeks time.

Before then he makes sincere, fervent acts of faith, of hope, and of charity. Hereby his profession of faith precedes the formal act of regeneration.

His belief was motivated by actual grace which God sent him, enabling him to make these fervent acts. The stain of original sin flees his soul, and God pours his Grace into it.

Baptism formalizes this man’s faith, and an indelibly mark now is in his soul, marking him a Christian.

Where does it say in your bible that faith cannot precede baptism. Doesn’t the NT say that a man should believe first, and then be baptised, rather than the other way around?

peace

 

[Nick_Jones]

It must happen, even in your church, all the time.

A man is studying Christianity. Let’s say he is going to be baptised in two weeks time.

Before then he makes sincere, fervent acts of faith, of hope, and of charity. Hereby his profession of faith precedes the formal act of regeneration.

His belief was motivated by actual grace which God sent him, enabling him to make these fervent acts. The stain of original sin flees his soul, and God pours his Grace into it.

Baptism formalizes this man’s faith, and an indelibly mark now is in his soul, marking him a Christian.

Where does it say in your bible that faith cannot precede baptism. Doesn’t the NT say that a man should believe first, and then be baptised, rather than the other way around?

peace

There are two kinds of baptism mentioned in the NT. Baptism by the Spirit of God, and baptism by water. Most people will not be interested in water baptism unless they already believe in Jesus.

 

[ryanoneil]

I think this is not the best example of pre-venient grace, because the ones to whom he writes are already disciples. Granted, they came to believe through grace, but clearly they had already become believers, and not everyone exposed to prevenient grace becomes a disciple.

I think a better one would be the people of Athens:

Acts 17:22-24

22 So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-op’agus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.

These people intuitively know that there is a higher power, and are disposed to turn toward that power, though they do not know who He is.

Here is another one.

John Salza: One of the best examples of prevenient grace not mentioned above is demonstrated in Acts 10:1-4, 31, 44-49. In these passages, we learn that Cornelius, who was a non-baptized Gentile centurion, offered prayers that ascended as a memorial before God. God received this non-baptized man’s prayers because he sought the true God. This actual grace moved Cornelius to be born again in water baptism, and thus saved by Jesus Christ. This demonstrates that God does give actual grace to those not yet baptized, for the purposes of moving them to baptism and the fullness of the truth of Jesus Christ which can only be found in the Holy Catholic Church.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[mgrfin]

There are two kinds of baptism mentioned in the NT. Baptism by the Spirit of God, and baptism by water. Most people will not be interested in water baptism unless they already believe in Jesus.

You just contradicted yourself: You said "Most people will not be interested in water baptism unless they already believe in Jesus "

Well, if they already believe in Jesus, and then are baptised, doesn’t faith precede regeneration?

peace

 

[mgrfin]

There are two kinds of baptism mentioned in the NT. Baptism by the Spirit of God, and baptism by water. Most people will not be interested in water baptism unless they already believe in Jesus.

Define for us what is “Baptism by the Spirit of God” and ‘baptism by water’.

Scriptural quotes would be very important as well.

peace

 

[guanophore]

Jesus said, “You must be born again.” Regeneration is what makes room for faith since “no one seeks God” and “all have turned away”. The lack of faith in God is the NATURAL state of fallen mankind. Fallen man doesn’t believe because he WILL NOT believe. You are suggesting that faith can precede regeneration. How is that possible?

All things are possible with God, Nick. Yes, regeneration does allow a person to live a life of faith, but not all persons who are drawn end up regenerated. some reject the purpose of God (salvation ) for themselves.

The scripture you quote is about believers (members of the covenant) who have turned away from the practice of their faith. For those who have not yet entered into covenant with God, the spirit draws them.

Acts 17:26-27
26 And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him.

Human beings have a God given desire to seek for Him. This is part of God’s prevenient grace.

Rom 1:18-22
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.

God reveals HImself in His creation, so that men can clearly perceive His invisible nature. This is part of HIs prevenient grace.

“will not” believe indicates that there is a choice, an application of the will. One cannot have choice unless alternatives are presented.

Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days,

If you say that man has not the freedom to choose, or that God does not allow man the freedom to resist His call, then you call God a liar.

I attend a non-denominational church called ‘FAITH BIBLE CHURCH.’

You probably did not realize that you are following a Calvanistic tradition.

 

[guanophore]

mgrfin;3197964:

I attend a non-denominational church called ‘FAITH BIBLE CHURCH.’

You probably did not realize that you are following a Calvanistic tradition.

 

[guanophore]

Define for us what is “Baptism by the Spirit of God” and ‘baptism by water’.

Scriptural quotes would be very important as well.

peace

Most likely Nick has been taught “believers baptism” - separated from Baptism in the HS, it is simply an ordinance (done because Jesus commanded it) and is considered a public testimony of faith, and has no sacramental value. Believers baptism does not consider water baptism to be salvific or regenerative.

 

[mgrfin]

Most likely Nick has been taught “believers baptism” - separated from Baptism in the HS, it is simply an ordinance (done because Jesus commanded it) and is considered a public testimony of faith, and has no sacramental value. Believers baptism does not consider water baptism to be salvific or regenerative.

No disrespect, but I have asked Nick questions in several posts, and has not responded.

You do not speak for Nick so please allow the discussion to go on the way it is supposed to.

thanks

peace

 

[mikeledes]

I think this is not the best example of pre-venient grace, because the ones to whom he writes are already disciples. Granted, they came to believe through grace, but clearly they had already become believers, and not everyone exposed to prevenient grace becomes a disciple.

Yes, they are already disciples. However, the passage indicates that these Christians had come to believe through grace. In other words, God’s grace preceded and led to their faith. So this is an example of prevenient grace that is efficacious.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Define for us what is “Baptism by the Spirit of God” and ‘baptism by water’.

Scriptural quotes would be very important as well.

peace

I think you’ve asked a very important question. I would also like to know when does this “Baptism by the Spirit of God” occur?

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Jesus said, “You must be born again.” Regeneration is what makes room for faith since “no one seeks God” and “all have turned away”. The lack of faith in God is the NATURAL state of fallen mankind. Fallen man doesn’t believe because he WILL NOT believe. You are suggesting that faith can precede regeneration. How is that possible?

Because regeneration is a different aspect of God’s salvific work within us. Jesus says “You must be born again.” What He does not say is that repentance and faith are the result of being “born again.” Yes, man cannot - by the pure exertion of his own will - come to faith. That’s why God must take the inititiatve, He must draw man unto Himself. The literal meaning of “draw” is to pull. The immediate end of an efficacious drawing is regeneration. I don’t have the time now, Nick, but I would like to discuss with you the meaning of regeneration. I’ll be posting on this topic later in the day.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I think a better one would be the people of Athens:

Acts 17:22-24

22 So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-op’agus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.

These people intuitively know that there is a higher power, and are disposed to turn toward that power, though they do not know who He is.

True. But they cannot turn to that power - even if they do know who He is - without God’s direct intervention, which I’m sure you believe as well. Man, apart from the grace of God, can have knowledge of a higher power and a basic understanding of ethics (good vs. evil) because of the natural moral law God has written in their hearts:

Romans 2:14-15

**14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, **

That’s why we find in pagan philosophical and religious systems many simliarities to Christianity when it comes to ethics/morality (i.e ancient Egyptian wisdom literature, ancient Greek philosophy, Buddhism, Zoroatrianism, etc.). However, if this basic capacity to know God and His moral law is not united to grace, it cannot produce repentance and faith. I’m just clarifying this so that Nick does not misunderstand you.

God bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

Yes, they are already disciples. However, the passage indicates that these Christians had come to believe through grace. In other words, God’s grace preceded and led to their faith. So this is an example of prevenient grace that is efficacious.

God Bless,
Michael

I see your point, of course, but this verse could also support Nick’s point that they became believers because they were regenerated by grace first.