Catholics are not saved by Works

[guanophore]

Well, ISTM that if the entire creation is all about God’s purposes and God’s glory, then His greatest work of all, the salvation of His sheep, must be something that most clearly reveals His good workmanship–we are saved ONLY by His goodness, not any goodness of our own.

Well, now, that is very Catholic of you!

So, to answer your question, the passage above demonstrates that even under the most ideal conditions (such as the garden of Eden) the final result is still rebellion and sin. Only God’s special grace can make and keep a person righteous. God goes to the most extreme lengths to make the elect righteous.

That is one of the possible outcomes. The other is that the person yields to the vinedresser, and produces the fruit that was meant to be produced. Yes, only God’s grace can make and keep a person righteous, and yes, he goes to extreme lengthes to make the elect righteous. However, not to the extreme of violating the free will of His creation.

 

[Philthy]

It is apparent that you worship a god who only offers the POSSIBILITY of salvation. How is this belief any different than giving all the credit for salvation to the goodness of those who, by their own “full acceptance and cooperation” are saved?

Sorry Nick, but we believe in a God who not only offers the POSSIBILITY, but who has DELIVERED the goods as well! That is what Sainthood, with a capital T, is all about: the Church proclaims that God has delivered on His promise. OTOH, you seem to believe in a God who only offers the ILLUSION of salvation to most while threatening the ILLUSION of damnation to others.
Lastly, the “goodness” you refer to is inaccurate - it is mere cooperation with God’s goodness and not an outright rejection of it.

 

[Philthy]

All of us reject the purpose of God for ourselves every time we sin. Yet our sin still accomplishes God’s purpose. This might seem like a huge contradiction to you,

Actually it seems like a poorly worded representation of the fact that God can accomplish his will DESPITE our sin. To say that "our sin accomplishes Gods purpose (aka will), however, is to say that Gods will is that we sin! That is simply not true.

but ultimately, God’s will cannot be frustrated by the will of any individual. In the end, all things work out for Him, and for His glory.

Correct, as noted above, but that does not mean that God’s will is that we sin IN ORDER TO accomplish His purpose.

 

[peary]

This is not an effective use of language for Apologetics with Protestants, who have been taught a different meaning for justification. Using the language this way will only cause more confusion.

Actually, I think it clarifies the Catholic position.

 

[Pwrlftr]

What I find interesting is that we now have two Calvinists saying two different things. One says that drawing = regeneration and that no one can seek God unless they have been regenerated first, while the other one says drawing precedes regeneration.


God Bless,
Michael

This should be no more interesting to you than the various catholics that disagree over “pick your catholic doctrine”. This one will say such-and-such says X and the other catholic will say that such-and-such says Y.

That infallible magesterium is not all that helpful sometimes.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

But it is helpful at all times teaching that Catholics are not saved by works.

The bible says it.

The magisterium says the bible says it.

And we should all believe it.

 

[peary]

You keep saying the wrong thing. We are not justified by our works.

What you are saying is that we are saved by our good works.

How many times do you have to be told that was condemned by the Council of Trent.

peace

**If such was condemned by the Council of Trent, then the council went against scripture.

Read it again: WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE ALONE

BUT

WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY OUR WORKS.**

 

[mgrfin]

QUOTE=peary;

We have to check your credentials. Maybe examing your posts will tell us that you are secretly a non-Catholic and you keep repeating this stuff to disrespect us.

We are not saved by works.

It is a fundamental principle of Catholic theology that we can do nothing of ourselves towards salvation, and this is true of the growth in grace. We can correspond with grace; and by corresponding with grace we can increase the supernatural life which we already possess.

It is clear this is clear from the teaching of the NT.

God alone gives grace and God alone increases it. The increase can be merited, and it is in this sense that with the help of God, our own actions can bring about the growth of the life of grace.
Remember, the increase in grace may be merited by us, but is not directly produced by us.

Protestants deny that there is such a thing as merit.

In Catholicism, we stress the fact, and rejoice in it that grace makes us truly sons of God, and heirs of the kingdom of heaven. Before Christ can sanctify us and make us sons of God, we must ‘receive’ him and believe in his name. St. Paul says that the just man lives by faith, and we are ‘children of God by faith in Christ Jesus’.

peace

 

[VARC]

Why must you always be so offensive by accusing people of being secretly noncatholics. I seen you do this a few times now. Who made you the inquisitor of Catholics answers forums.

 

[VARC]

…and you’re wrong again. The church teaches we are saved by grace through faith and works. Please do a little research before you accuse your brethren of being noncatholic infiltrators.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

mgrfin;3213985:

Why must you always be so offensive by accusing people of being secretly noncatholics. I seen you do this a few times now. Who made you the inquisitor of Catholics answers forums.

I understand your agenda, VARC.

You seem to have nothing else to do but issue false statements about what I do, and what I say.

I am not the inquisitor of Catholic Answers Forum. I participate like everyone else. And I do my best to treat everyone with respect.

peace

 

[VARC]

VARC;3213996:

I understand your agenda, VARC.

You seem to have nothing else to do but issue false statements about what I do, and what I say.

I am not the inquisitor of Catholic Answers Forum. I participate like everyone else. And I do my best to treat everyone with respect.

peace

Well you need to try harder. peary is simply giving his views on the council of trent and you throw him under the bus as noncatholic. That’s dispicable.

 

[mgrfin]

mgrfin;3214012:

Well you need to try harder. peary is simply giving his views on the council of trent and you throw him under the bus as noncatholic. That’s dispicable.

No, you have it backwards, I am sorry to say.

I constantly quote the Canons of the Council of Trent to him on Justification.

He keeps saying we are justified by works which has been condemned by Trent.

But a good try at your false propaganda, VARC.

peace

 

[VARC]

VARC;3214015:

No, you have it backwards, I am sorry to say.

I constantly quote the Canons of the Council of Trent to him on Justification.

He keeps saying we are justified by works which has been condemned by Trent.

But a good try at your false propaganda, VARC.

peace

Just because peary and I understand the council to say saved by grace thru faith and works that makes me a propagandist and him a noncatholic. Shame on you. there are more than a few catholic apologists that teach the same thing but I guess they are suspects too.

 

[ryanoneil]

In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9).

James 2:20-26
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Jerry-Jet]

We are gracefully saved by faith which continues through God willed works.

No continuation = state of mortal sin = if not repented of before death = Hell!

Continuation = state of grace = at time of death= Heaven!

God willed works come from God and are not works of the law or man intitated works.

Any works not initiated and willed by God do not save and put one into a state of Mortal sin.

Saving faith encompases everything from prevenient grace to conversion to the doing of God-willed works.

Man cooperates with the saving grace of God–God does all the saving.

Anyone who tries to separate the WHOLE of grace that continues through faith and God-willed works is of Satan and the truth is not in him.

 

[guanophore]

Actually, I think it clarifies the Catholic position.

Perhaps, but only for Catholics. Those formed in Protestant Theology will not be benefitted by such language. they will not understand, an it will only thrust more wedges.

 

[guanophore]

This should be no more interesting to you than the various catholics that disagree over “pick your catholic doctrine”. This one will say such-and-such says X and the other catholic will say that such-and-such says Y.

That infallible magesterium is not all that helpful sometimes.

On the contrary, we can easily discern who is actually Catholic (and not Catholic in name only) by their adherance to Catholic doctrine. It is a sad fact that most “catholics” are not really, and are actually Protestant (rejecting the authority appointed by Christ). They are poorly catechized, and don’ t realize that the Teaching of Jesus is not a cafeteria affair.

In fact, the Magesterium is even more essential in such times, when people go after such teachings as will tickle the ears.

 

[guanophore]

mgrfin;3213985:

Why must you always be so offensive by accusing people of being secretly noncatholics. I seen you do this a few times now. Who made you the inquisitor of Catholics answers forums.

It is a valid inquiry, when one purporting to support Catholic principles is promulgating otherwise.

 

[Pwrlftr]

On the contrary, we can easily discern who is actually Catholic (and not Catholic in name only) by their adherance to Catholic doctrine. It is a sad fact that most “catholics” are not really, and are actually Protestant (rejecting the authority appointed by Christ). They are poorly catechized, and don’ t realize that the Teaching of Jesus is not a cafeteria affair.

In fact, the Magesterium is even more essential in such times, when people go after such teachings as will tickle the ears.

I was thinking more along the lines of those who read the same documents you do and come to different conclusions.