Catholics are not saved by Works

[Nick_Jones]

If Cornelius, while still “dead in his sins” can seek God and please him with his prayers and good works (i.e. almsgiving), then why is regeneration - as understood by Calvinism - necessary in order to produce a “voluntary” acceptance of the Gospel? If man can seek God without regeneration (as in the case of Cornelius), without the “renewing the will” and the “new heart and new spirit”, then to what extent is man totally depraved?

God Bless,
Michael

Hi Michael,

Who are these “Calvinist” people that are claiming that Cornelius while still “dead in his sins” can seek God and please him with his prayers and good works? I have never met a person who claimed to believe what the Westminster Confession says, who rejects the necessity of regeneration to make sinners seek God, and to make them receptive to the gospel.

 

[guanophore]

No, since there is no good reason to disobey God, this question has no satisfactory answer. ISTM that if a satisfying answer could be found to the question (why did Adam sin), it would excuse his sin…which, of course, is impossible.

What it shows is that man can, by exercise of the free will, thwart the plan of God. God created humans to be in fellowship with him, but they chose pride instead. However, this is what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God. The angels were also made for fellowship with Him, had no original sin, yet chose to rebel.

I agree. God decreed that mankind should fall, AND that the fall should be due to the free will choice of man.

No, God foreknew this, just as He foreknew the fall of the angels, but did not “decree” it. He does not want to have fellowship in eternity with those who do not choose to be with him.

 

[Nick_Jones]

What it shows is that man can, by exercise of the free will, thwart the plan of God. God created humans to be in fellowship with him, but they chose pride instead. However, this is what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God. The angels were also made for fellowship with Him, had no original sin, yet chose to rebel.

No, God foreknew this, just as He foreknew the fall of the angels, but did not “decree” it. He does not want to have fellowship in eternity with those who do not choose to be with him.

Hi guanophore,

As I see it, there was never any possibility that God would have fellowship in eternity with those who do not choose to be with Him.
Furthermore, if the will of almighty God can thwarted by His creatures, then we have no assurance that ANYONE is saved, and therefore, we can’t worship Jesus as our Savior, or as the Savior of anyone.

 

[mikeledes]

Hi Michael,

Who are these “Calvinist” people that are claiming that Cornelius while still “dead in his sins” can seek God and please him with his prayers and good works? I have never met a person who claimed to believe what the Westminster Confession says, who rejects the necessity of regeneration to make sinners seek God, and to make them receptive to the gospel.

None. That’s my point. It seems that many Calvinists have overlooked this serious challenge to their theology. The problem is that the Calvinists I’ve come across have identified baptism with the Spirit with regeneration and the bible clearly states that Cornelius was “baptized with the Spirit” - and hence regenerated - in Acts 10:44. And this is reaffirmed by Acts 11:15-16:

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 10:44 is cited by Calvinist theologians in order to support the doctrine that man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit through the instrumentality of the Word, as affirmed in the Westminster Confession. I’ve cited Wayne Grudem, a respected Calvinist theologian, who clearly states that Cornelius was regenerated in Acts 10:44:

**As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to summon us to himself (effective calling) and to give us new spiritual life (regeneration) so that we are enabled to respond in faith. Effective calling is thus God the Father speaking powerfully to us, and regeneration is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit working powerfully in us, to make us alive. These two things must have happened simultaneously as Peter was preaching the gospel to the household of Cornelius, for while he was still preaching "the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word’ (Acts 10:44). **

Regeneration in Calvinist theology means passing from spiritual death to spiritual life and that man plays a completely passive role. So if we are “dead in our trespasses” prior to regeneration, and Cornelius was regenerated in Acts 10:44, then Cornelius was dead in his trespasses prior to Acts 10:44. And yet we find Cornelius seeking God continually in prayer and pleasing Him with his prayers and almsgiving prior to being regenerated and hence while spiritually dead. If Calvinists believe in " the necessity of regeneration to make sinners seek God, and to make them receptive to the gospel," then how is it possible that Cornelius continually sought God prior to his regeneration in Acts 10:44. Thus the example of Cornelius contradicts Calvinist theology.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

What it shows is that man can, by exercise of the free will, thwart the plan of God. God created humans to be in fellowship with him, but they chose pride instead. However, this is what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God. The angels were also made for fellowship with Him, had no original sin, yet chose to rebel.

Hi guanophore! I woudn’t say “thwart” the plan of God because that kind of language would infer that God was somehow surprised or overpowered by the will of man. God has allowed us to chose evil, but even out of this evil He can bring something good.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Hi guanophore,

As I see it, there was never any possibility that God would have fellowship in eternity with those who do not choose to be with Him.
Furthermore, if the will of almighty God can thwarted by His creatures, then we have no assurance that ANYONE is saved, and therefore, we can’t worship Jesus as our Savior, or as the Savior of anyone.

The eternal decrees of God regarding predestination will not be thwarted.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Shiann]

Hi guanophore,

As I see it, there was never any possibility that God would have fellowship in eternity with those who do not choose to be with Him.

All things are possible with God… and since he offered mankind Free Will, he obviously designed it so that mankind has the gift to choose his eternal destiny. (As much as I’m sure it pains God to do so.)

Furthermore, if the will of almighty God can thwarted by His creatures, then we have no assurance that ANYONE is saved,

Sure you do. God can offer Salvation to EACH AND EVERY human born… In fact He does and promises it again and again.

But if you do not will it, God will not make you- yet His offer stands at every moment of every day, just in case you have a change of heart.

and therefore, we can’t worship Jesus as our Savior, or as the Savior of anyone.

Not sure how you make this leap.

 

[guanophore]

No, I don’t believe that the free will of man (before the fall) subtracted from God’s sovereignty.

If God “allows” then ISTM that He “wills” unless it is possible for God to allow things against His own will.

What makes you think He does not? Would you force your wife to “love” you, and how do you think this might be done? Even we, being human, can see that we are made in such a manner that this is not possible.

He allows people the free will to disobey Him, and to go against his desire. Not just people, but angels too!

 

[guanophore]

Hi Michael,

Who are these “Calvinist” people that are claiming that Cornelius while still “dead in his sins” can seek God and please him with his prayers and good works? I have never met a person who claimed to believe what the Westminster Confession says, who rejects the necessity of regeneration to make sinners seek God, and to make them receptive to the gospel.

They are claiming that regeneration and drawing are one and the same. They are claiming that a person cannot respond to God without grace, and that grace is what regenerates.

Sinners, as demonstrated by Cornelius, seek God prior to regeneration. They have responded to God’s drawing grace, which makes them receptive to the gospel. We see this clearly in Acts.

 

[guanophore]

Hi guanophore,

As I see it, there was never any possibility that God would have fellowship in eternity with those who do not choose to be with Him.
Furthermore, if the will of almighty God can thwarted by His creatures, then we have no assurance that ANYONE is saved, and therefore, we can’t worship Jesus as our Savior, or as the Savior of anyone.

Are you saying that you will only worship God if He promises to save you? If the case, then perhaps it is better of you don’t. God is worshipped because He is worthy of worship, not because we get bennies from worshipping HIm.

Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. Just because God has allowed his creatures to spurn his fellowship with Him, how does that make Him incapable of having fellowship with those that want Him?

 

[mikeledes]

No, I don’t believe that the free will of man (before the fall) subtracted from God’s sovereignty.

If God “allows” then ISTM that He “wills” unless it is possible for God to allow things against His own will.

Then you see no contradiction between an eternal decree and free will, at least in the case of Adam? How does God execute an eternal decree without directly causing the act, particularly in the case of Adam’s sin?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

They are claiming that regeneration and drawing are one and the same. They are claiming that a person cannot respond to God without grace, and that grace is what regenerates.

Sinners, as demonstrated by Cornelius, seek God prior to regeneration. They have responded to God’s drawing grace, which makes them receptive to the gospel. We see this clearly in Acts.

And if man’s will can chose to seek God under the influence of this grace without “regeneration”, that raises another question, to what extent was man’s will affected by the Fall?

Calvinists essentially argue that a radical problem requires a radical solution. The radical corruption of man (i.e. total depravity) requires a radical intervention by God (i.e. regeneration) in order to produce a positive response to the Gospel. This rules out any “in between” spiritual state. You are either unregenerated and hostile to God or regenerated and responsive to God. This stark black and white spiritual scenario created by Calvinism, is contradicted by the example of Cornelius. If man can positively respond to God without regeneration, without a “new heart and new spirit” - as in the case of Cornelius - then how do Calvinists reconcile this with their view of the human will prior to regeneration? Moreover, how do they reconcile this with their understanding of regeneration?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

None. That’s my point. It seems that many Calvinists have overlooked this serious challenge to their theology. The problem is that the Calvinists I’ve come across have identified baptism with the Spirit with regeneration and the bible clearly states that Cornelius was “baptized with the Spirit” - and hence regenerated - in Acts 10:44. And this is reaffirmed by Acts 11:15-16:

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 10:44 is cited by Calvinist theologians in order to support the doctrine that man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit through the instrumentality of the Word, as affirmed in the Westminster Confession. I’ve cited Wayne Grudem, a respected Calvinist theologian, who clearly states that Cornelius was regenerated in Acts 10:44:

As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to summon us to himself (effective calling) and to give us new spiritual life (regeneration) so that we are enabled to respond in faith. Effective calling is thus God the Father speaking powerfully to us, and regeneration is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit working powerfully in us, to make us alive. These two things must have happened simultaneously as Peter was preaching the gospel to the household of Cornelius, for while he was still preaching "the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word’ (Acts 10:44).

Regeneration in Calvinist theology means passing from spiritual death to spiritual life and that man plays a completely passive role. So if we are “dead in our trespasses” prior to regeneration, and Cornelius was regenerated in Acts 10:44, then Cornelius was dead in his trespasses prior to Acts 10:44. And yet we find Cornelius seeking God continually in prayer and pleasing Him with his prayers and almsgiving prior to being regenerated and hence while spiritually dead. If Calvinists believe in " the necessity of regeneration to make sinners seek God, and to make them receptive to the gospel," then how is it possible that Cornelius continually sought God prior to his regeneration in Acts 10:44. Thus the example of Cornelius contradicts Calvinist theology.

God Bless,
Michael

Hi Michael,

I’m still confused. Did Wayne Grudem specifically say that Cornelius was unregenerate prior to this incident (the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message) in verse 44?

 

[mikeledes]

Hi Michael,

I’m still confused. Did Wayne Grudem specifically say that Cornelius was unregenerate prior to this incident (the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message) in verse 44?

Hi Nick! If Wayne Grudem says that Cornelius was regenerated in Acts 10:44, then that means that prior to that he was not regenerated:

As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to summon us to himself (effective calling) and to give us new spiritual life (regeneration) so that we are enabled to respond in faith. Effective calling is thus God the Father speaking powerfully to us, and regeneration is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit working powerfully in us, to make us alive. These two things must have happened simultaneously as Peter was preaching the gospel to the household of Cornelius, for while he was still preaching "the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word’ (Acts 10:44).

He is basically saying that the “effective calling” and “regeneration” occured simultaneously in Acts 10:44. Besides, that’s the moment the Bible says Cornelius was “baptized with the Spirit” (Acts 11:16), which you and most Calvinists identify with regeneration.

God bless,
Michael

 

[myfavoritmartin]

:

**As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to summon us to himself (effective calling) and to give us new spiritual life (regeneration) so that we are enabled to respond in faith. Effective calling **is thus God the Father speaking powerfully to us, and regeneration is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit working powerfully in us, to make us alive

Think eunuch!
Mike I leave for a couple months, come back and you sound like a born again fundamentalist like me…
God be with you brother…

 

[mikeledes]

Think eunuch!
Mike I leave for a couple months, come back and you sound like a born again fundamentalist like me…
God be with you brother…

Hi Simon! What a pleasant surprise! I haven’t heard from you in months. I hope everything is going well with you.

I’ve been hanging out with born again fundamentalists for a while. Something eventually has to rub off. Though those words belong to Wayne Grudem.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hi Simon! What a pleasant surprise! I haven’t heard from you in months. I hope everything is going well with you.

I’ve been hanging out with born again fundamentalists for a while. Something eventually has to rub off.

God Bless,
Michael

Just here for a post and dash. Was bored at my home forum thought i’d see what you and NW and CM were up to, seriously I miss chatting with you three.
Everything is well with me, the Lord is moving in wondrous ways in our circle drawing many to Him, it’s truly been a blessed couple of months seeing Him reveal himself to new believers is awesome. Praise Him.
His Servant,
Simon

 

[Nick_Jones]

Hi Nick! If Wayne Grudem says that Cornelius was regenerated in Acts 10:44, then that means that prior to that he was not regenerated:

This is precisely the point. If Wayne Grudem says that Cornelius was unregenerate prior to this event (in Acts 10:44) then Wayne Grudem needs to explain how it was possible for Cornelius to seek God prior to his regeneration. It sounds to me as though Wayne Grudem is using this text from Acts 10 to demonstrate that, in general, the Holy Spirit works regeneration in union with the preaching of the gospel. It doesn’t appear to me as though Wayne Grudem meant that Cornelius himself was unregenerate prior to this event, but I could be wrong about what he meant.

He is basically saying that the “effective calling” and “regeneration” occured simultaneously in Acts 10:44. Besides, that’s the moment the Bible says Cornelius was “baptized with the Spirit” (Acts 11:16), which you and most Calvinists identify with regeneration.

God bless,
Michael

My only quibble here is that biblically speaking, not every instance
in which the Holy Spirit comes upon a person is for the purpose of regeneration.

 

[mikeledes]

Just here for a post and dash. Was bored at my home forum thought i’d see what you and NW and CM were up to, seriously I miss chatting with you three.
Everything is well with me, the Lord is moving in wondrous ways in our circle drawing many to Him, it’s truly been a blessed couple of months seeing Him reveal himself to new believers is awesome. Praise Him.
His Servant,
Simon

What’s your home forum? Maybe I’ll drop in and visit you! Though I don’t know what kind of welcome I’ll get. If you don’t want to tell me here, you can send me a PM.

I’m very glad to hear about your experiences with the Lord and I am so glad that you haven’t forgotten me. You are one of the finest Protestants I have ever had discussions with and would love to see you here more often. You are confident about your faith without being arrogant and assertive without being aggressive. I admire those qualities. And I admire your strong faith. Please keep me in your prayers and I will keep you in mine. May God continue to richly bless you in Christ!

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

This is precisely the point. If Wayne Grudem says that Cornelius was unregenerate prior to this event (in Acts 10:44) then Wayne Grudem needs to explain how it was possible for Cornelius to seek God prior to his regeneration. It sounds to me as though Wayne Grudem is using this text from Acts 10 to demonstrate that, in general, the Holy Spirit works regeneration in union with the preaching of the gospel. It doesn’t appear to me as though Wayne Grudem meant that Cornelius himself was unregenerate prior to this event, but I could be wrong about what he meant.

It is clear that Grudem is using Acts 10:44 as an example of effective calling and regeneration working simultaneously. In other words, he is basically saying that that was the moment Cornelius was regenerated. If he did not believe that this is an example of effective calling and regeneration, I doubt he would use it.

My only quibble here is that biblically speaking, not every instance
in which the Holy Spirit comes upon a person is for the purpose of regeneration

But it is clear from Scripture that this was the moment Cornelius and his household was “saved” and “baptized with the Spirit,” which you yourself have said that it is the equivalent of regeneration:

Acts 11:14

**And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ **

Will be saved means that Cornelius was not saved yet and he had not been regenerated. Otherwise, he would have been saved already before meeting with Peter.

Nick, I don’t think Calvinists believe that you can be regenerated more than once. Regeneration is a once in a lifetime experience. If Grudem is using Cornelius’s encounter with Peter as an example of effective calling and regeneration, then he obviously does not believe Cornelius was regenerated prior to that encounter. Otherwise, he was regenerated twice and that is not taught by Calvinism.

God bless,
Michael