M
mikeledes
Guest
I may or may not be online for the next couple of days. 
Iâll try, though.
God bless,
Michael
Iâll try, though.God bless,
Michael
- Status
M
mikeledes
Guest
Calvinist John Piper gave the following response to the question whether Cornelius was saved prior to his encounter with Peter:
**Four Reasons for Answering No
Let me give you four reasons from the text for answering NO.
Notice two things. First, notice that the message is essential. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Then notice that the tense of the verb is future: " . . . a message by which you will be saved . . . " In other words, the message was not simply the informing of Cornelius that he already was savedâwhich is what some people say world evangelization is for. If he sends for Peter and hears the message and believes on the Christ of that message, then he WILL be saved. And if he does not, he wonât be.
This surely is why the whole story is built around Godâs miraculously getting Cornelius and Peter together. There was a message that Cornelius needed to hear to be saved (vv. 22, 33).
So Acts 10:35 probably does not mean that Cornelius is already saved when it says that people in unreached ethnic groups who fear God and do right are acceptable to God. Cornelius had to hear the gospel message to be saved.
Forgiveness of sins is salvation. No one is saved whose sins against God are not forgiven by God. And Peter says that forgiveness comes through believing in Christ, and it comes through the name of Christ.
He does not say, âI am here to announce to you that those of you who fear God and do right are already forgiven.â He says, âI am here so that you may hear the gospel and receive forgiveness in the name of Christ by believing in him.â So again it is very unlikely that verse 35 means that Cornelius and his household were already forgiven for their sins before they heard the message of Christ.
So Luke is not trying to tell us in this book that devout, God-fearing people who practice whatâs right as best they know how are already saved and without any need of the gospel. The gospel got its start among the most devout people in the world, namely, the Jews. They had more advantages in knowing God than any of the other peoples of the earth. Yet they were told again and again: devoutness and works of righteousness and religious sincerity does not solve the problem of sin. The only hope is to believe on Jesus. It was true then, it is true today!
âRepentance unto lifeâ means that their repentance led to eternal life. They did not already have eternal life. They received it when they heard the message about Christ and turned to believe and follow him.
So I conclude that Acts 10:35 does not mean that Cornelius was already saved because he was in some sense God-fearing and did many right and noble things. Thatâs the answer to my first question. *
This is from:
desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByScripture/8/777_What_God_Has_Cleansed_Do_Not_Call_Common/
God bless,
Michael**
**Four Reasons for Answering No
Let me give you four reasons from the text for answering NO.
- Peterâs Description in Acts 11:14
Notice two things. First, notice that the message is essential. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Then notice that the tense of the verb is future: " . . . a message by which you will be saved . . . " In other words, the message was not simply the informing of Cornelius that he already was savedâwhich is what some people say world evangelization is for. If he sends for Peter and hears the message and believes on the Christ of that message, then he WILL be saved. And if he does not, he wonât be.
This surely is why the whole story is built around Godâs miraculously getting Cornelius and Peter together. There was a message that Cornelius needed to hear to be saved (vv. 22, 33).
So Acts 10:35 probably does not mean that Cornelius is already saved when it says that people in unreached ethnic groups who fear God and do right are acceptable to God. Cornelius had to hear the gospel message to be saved.
- Peterâs Declaration in Acts 10:43
Forgiveness of sins is salvation. No one is saved whose sins against God are not forgiven by God. And Peter says that forgiveness comes through believing in Christ, and it comes through the name of Christ.
He does not say, âI am here to announce to you that those of you who fear God and do right are already forgiven.â He says, âI am here so that you may hear the gospel and receive forgiveness in the name of Christ by believing in him.â So again it is very unlikely that verse 35 means that Cornelius and his household were already forgiven for their sins before they heard the message of Christ.
- What Devout Jews Need Elsewhere in Acts
So Luke is not trying to tell us in this book that devout, God-fearing people who practice whatâs right as best they know how are already saved and without any need of the gospel. The gospel got its start among the most devout people in the world, namely, the Jews. They had more advantages in knowing God than any of the other peoples of the earth. Yet they were told again and again: devoutness and works of righteousness and religious sincerity does not solve the problem of sin. The only hope is to believe on Jesus. It was true then, it is true today!
- The Apostlesâ Reaction in Acts 11:18
âRepentance unto lifeâ means that their repentance led to eternal life. They did not already have eternal life. They received it when they heard the message about Christ and turned to believe and follow him.
So I conclude that Acts 10:35 does not mean that Cornelius was already saved because he was in some sense God-fearing and did many right and noble things. Thatâs the answer to my first question. *
This is from:
desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByScripture/8/777_What_God_Has_Cleansed_Do_Not_Call_Common/
God bless,
Michael**
M
mikeledes
Guest
Question: can a person be born again and not be saved?
God bless,
Michael
God bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
I just want to clarify, Nick, that Iâm not saying that Cornelius feared God by his own natural powers. I believe that his prayers and almsgiving demonstrate that God was already working in him prior to his enocunter with Peter. However, this work is not regeneration. If Cornelius was born again, then how is it possible that he remained unsaved or needed to hear Peterâs words in order to be saved?
Moreover, what does Ezekiel 18:31 mean to you?
**31"Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? **
Particularly when ânew heart and new spiritâ is understood by Calvinists as signifying regeneration?
God Bless,
Michael
God Bless,
Michael
Moreover, what does Ezekiel 18:31 mean to you?
**31"Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? **
Particularly when ânew heart and new spiritâ is understood by Calvinists as signifying regeneration?
God Bless,
Michael
God Bless,
Michael
C
Cling2Cross
Guest
Man - donât you guys get tired?
M
mikeledes
Guest
Donât you know Iâm the energizer bunny? I keep going, and going, and going, andâŚMan - donât you guys get tired?
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
When presented with the following verse:
1 Timothy 2:4
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Many Calvinists - though not all - will admit that âall menâ means elect and non-elect. However, they interpret it in a way that confroms with Calvinist principles.
When presented withâŚ
Acts 17:30
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
⌠they will admit that the command to repent applies to both elect and non-elect and thus âall menâ includes both.
In 2 Timothy 4:10 âŚ
10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach,[a] because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
⌠the meaning of âall menâ is made quite clear by the inspired author. By saying âespecially of those who believeâ, Paul clearly indicates that âall menâ is not the equivalent of âthe electâ or âall believers.â Rather, the elect are a special subset of âall men.â
So when we have a verse like John 12:32:
**32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." **
how do we reconcile this with Calvinist theology, particularly when the Bible also says:
John 1:9
**9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. **
Hebrews 2:9
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
1 John 4:14
14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
God bless,
Michael
1 Timothy 2:4
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Many Calvinists - though not all - will admit that âall menâ means elect and non-elect. However, they interpret it in a way that confroms with Calvinist principles.
When presented withâŚ
Acts 17:30
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
⌠they will admit that the command to repent applies to both elect and non-elect and thus âall menâ includes both.
In 2 Timothy 4:10 âŚ
10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach,[a] because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
⌠the meaning of âall menâ is made quite clear by the inspired author. By saying âespecially of those who believeâ, Paul clearly indicates that âall menâ is not the equivalent of âthe electâ or âall believers.â Rather, the elect are a special subset of âall men.â
So when we have a verse like John 12:32:
**32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." **
how do we reconcile this with Calvinist theology, particularly when the Bible also says:
John 1:9
**9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. **
Hebrews 2:9
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
1 John 4:14
14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
God bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
What I also find interesting that Calvinists often cite the canons of the Council of Orange to support their claim that Calvinism is the historic teaching of Christianity. And yet one of the canons of that important council - which condemned the heresies of Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism - stated:
CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism â if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, âAnd I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christâ (Phil. 1:6). And again, âFor by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of Godâ (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.
This is from a Calvinist websiteâŚ
reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/canons_of_orange.html
Regarding the historic understanding of regeneration (i.e. first 400 years of Christianity), this website will be helpful:
bringyou.to/apologetics/num2.htm
God Bless,
Michael
CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism â if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, âAnd I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christâ (Phil. 1:6). And again, âFor by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of Godâ (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.
This is from a Calvinist websiteâŚ
reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/canons_of_orange.html
Regarding the historic understanding of regeneration (i.e. first 400 years of Christianity), this website will be helpful:
bringyou.to/apologetics/num2.htm
God Bless,
Michael
C
Cling2Cross
Guest
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2 KJV)
First John 2, 1 John 2, âJesus Christ the righteous,â verse 1, verse 2, âHe Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for those of the whole world.â What is that saying? That He is a propitiation not only for our sins, again this is very Jewish in its context. But for the whole world. Itâs making the same point that John made over and over and over again, the same point that they made in the book of Acts, the same point that Paul makes in Romans 11. That the gospel is not limited to the Jews. Propitiation, by the way, is a very strong word, hilasmos in the Greek. And propitiation means the actual satisfying of Godâs just wrath. Itâs not a potential, itâs an actual word. ItâŚitâŚit could be translated placated, or satisfied. He Himself is the satisfaction, He is the placation, He propitiates God, satisfies God, placates Godâs anger for our sins. But not just ours, as the inside people, but the whole world. That is to say there is no other propitiation for people in any other nation than the one who is the propitiation for us. If this meant that He was actually a satisfaction for every person who ever lived, then the word is way too strong to mean anything potential. It would have to mean actual because itâs a satisfaction, God was satisfied with the sacrifice on their behalf. Nothing is left out. And Jesusâ death, dear one, was a satisfaction. He was the sacrificial lamb on the ultimate day of atonement whose blood sprinkled before God was a true satisfaction. Propitiation is too strong a word to mean something potential because propitiation means it turns Godâs wrath away forever. And not just for us but for any Gentile or anyone else who believes.
First John 2, 1 John 2, âJesus Christ the righteous,â verse 1, verse 2, âHe Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for those of the whole world.â What is that saying? That He is a propitiation not only for our sins, again this is very Jewish in its context. But for the whole world. Itâs making the same point that John made over and over and over again, the same point that they made in the book of Acts, the same point that Paul makes in Romans 11. That the gospel is not limited to the Jews. Propitiation, by the way, is a very strong word, hilasmos in the Greek. And propitiation means the actual satisfying of Godâs just wrath. Itâs not a potential, itâs an actual word. ItâŚitâŚit could be translated placated, or satisfied. He Himself is the satisfaction, He is the placation, He propitiates God, satisfies God, placates Godâs anger for our sins. But not just ours, as the inside people, but the whole world. That is to say there is no other propitiation for people in any other nation than the one who is the propitiation for us. If this meant that He was actually a satisfaction for every person who ever lived, then the word is way too strong to mean anything potential. It would have to mean actual because itâs a satisfaction, God was satisfied with the sacrifice on their behalf. Nothing is left out. And Jesusâ death, dear one, was a satisfaction. He was the sacrificial lamb on the ultimate day of atonement whose blood sprinkled before God was a true satisfaction. Propitiation is too strong a word to mean something potential because propitiation means it turns Godâs wrath away forever. And not just for us but for any Gentile or anyone else who believes.
C
Cling2Cross
Guest
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Timothy 4:10 KJV)
Paul is obviously not teaching universalism, that all men will be saved in the spiritual and eternal sense, since the rest of Scripture clearly teaches that God will not save everyone. Most will reject Him and spend eternity in hell (Matt. 25:41,46; Rev. 20:11â15). Yet, the Gr. word translated âespeciallyâ must mean that all men enjoy Godâs salvation in some way like those who believe enjoy His salvation. The simple explanation is that God is the Savior of all men, only in a temporal sense, while of believers in an eternal sense. Paulâs point is that while God graciously delivers believers from sinâs condemnation and penalty because He was their substitute (2 Cor. 5:21), all men experience some earthly benefits from the goodness of God. Those benefits are: 1) common graceâa term that describes Godâs goodness shown to all mankind universally (Ps. 145:9) in restraining sin (Rom. 2:15) and judgment (Rom. 2:3â6), maintaining order in society through government (Rom. 13:1â5), enabling man to appreciate beauty and goodness (Ps. 50:2), and showering him with temporal blessings (Matt. 5:45; Acts 14:15â17; 17:25); 2) compassionâthe broken-hearted love of pity God shows to undeserving, unregenerate sinners (Ex. 34:6,7; Ps. 86:5; Dan. 9:9; Matt. 23:37; Luke 19:41â44; cf. Is. 16:11â13; Jer. 48:35â37); 3) admonition to repentâGod constantly warns sinners of their fate, demonstrating the heart of a compassionate Creator who has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek. 18:30â32; 33:11); 4) the gospel invitationâsalvation in Christ is indiscriminately offered to all (Matt. 11:28,29; 22:2â14; John 6:35â40; Rev. 22:17; cf. John 5:39,40). God is, by nature, a saving God. That is, He finds no pleasure in the death of sinners. His saving character is revealed even in how He deals with those who will never believe, but only in those 4 temporal ways. See notes on 2:6.
MacArthur, John Jr: The MacArthur Study Bible. electronic ed. Nashville : Word Pub., 1997, c1997, S. 1 Ti 4:10
gty.org/Resources/Transcripts/90-278
OthersâŚ
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:14 KJV)
Paul is obviously not teaching universalism, that all men will be saved in the spiritual and eternal sense, since the rest of Scripture clearly teaches that God will not save everyone. Most will reject Him and spend eternity in hell (Matt. 25:41,46; Rev. 20:11â15). Yet, the Gr. word translated âespeciallyâ must mean that all men enjoy Godâs salvation in some way like those who believe enjoy His salvation. The simple explanation is that God is the Savior of all men, only in a temporal sense, while of believers in an eternal sense. Paulâs point is that while God graciously delivers believers from sinâs condemnation and penalty because He was their substitute (2 Cor. 5:21), all men experience some earthly benefits from the goodness of God. Those benefits are: 1) common graceâa term that describes Godâs goodness shown to all mankind universally (Ps. 145:9) in restraining sin (Rom. 2:15) and judgment (Rom. 2:3â6), maintaining order in society through government (Rom. 13:1â5), enabling man to appreciate beauty and goodness (Ps. 50:2), and showering him with temporal blessings (Matt. 5:45; Acts 14:15â17; 17:25); 2) compassionâthe broken-hearted love of pity God shows to undeserving, unregenerate sinners (Ex. 34:6,7; Ps. 86:5; Dan. 9:9; Matt. 23:37; Luke 19:41â44; cf. Is. 16:11â13; Jer. 48:35â37); 3) admonition to repentâGod constantly warns sinners of their fate, demonstrating the heart of a compassionate Creator who has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek. 18:30â32; 33:11); 4) the gospel invitationâsalvation in Christ is indiscriminately offered to all (Matt. 11:28,29; 22:2â14; John 6:35â40; Rev. 22:17; cf. John 5:39,40). God is, by nature, a saving God. That is, He finds no pleasure in the death of sinners. His saving character is revealed even in how He deals with those who will never believe, but only in those 4 temporal ways. See notes on 2:6.
MacArthur, John Jr: The MacArthur Study Bible. electronic ed. Nashville : Word Pub., 1997, c1997, S. 1 Ti 4:10
gty.org/Resources/Transcripts/90-278
OthersâŚ
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:14 KJV)
C
Cling2Cross
Guest
One thing that you need to understand from these passages is that, yes - light is given to âall menâ or âall nationsââŚhowever, for the non-elect, this ultimately turns out for a hardening and not for savingâŚfor example, we have the passage which says that the gospel either brings about death or lifeâŚsome are hardened through the hearing of it which is the external call (not the effectual call as is discussed in John 6 and in Romans 8:30)
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. (2 Corinthians 2:15-17 KJV)
He, in fact, does call all men to repentâŚbutâŚonly the elect will come as we know. There are no others that can come and be justified.
He is the Saviour of ALL MENâŚbut - especially of them that believe. In my opinion, this scripture passage nullifies your other passages in that all men are saved only as those in Sodom and Gomorrah were saved by Lotâs being thereâŚthe God would not destroy the righteous with the unrighteous in His judgmentâŚ
Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. (Genesis 18:24-26 KJV)
This is why, before the tribulation period, the righteous will be caught up as the scriptures say to be with the Lord while the judgments pour down from heaven.
Also, we haveâŚ
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (1 Peter 2:6-8 KJV)
In drawing all men - the elect will be saved and the non-elect will be hardened - EVEN if they might come to church services and show themselves to be OUTWARDLY associated. They are caught up in the dragnet as bad fish and sorted out as bad fishâŚ
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:47-50 KJV)
They received the outward call outwardly - but never received the effectual inner callâŚshown in Romans 8:30âŚ
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 KJV)
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. (2 Corinthians 2:15-17 KJV)
He, in fact, does call all men to repentâŚbutâŚonly the elect will come as we know. There are no others that can come and be justified.
He is the Saviour of ALL MENâŚbut - especially of them that believe. In my opinion, this scripture passage nullifies your other passages in that all men are saved only as those in Sodom and Gomorrah were saved by Lotâs being thereâŚthe God would not destroy the righteous with the unrighteous in His judgmentâŚ
Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. (Genesis 18:24-26 KJV)
This is why, before the tribulation period, the righteous will be caught up as the scriptures say to be with the Lord while the judgments pour down from heaven.
Also, we haveâŚ
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (1 Peter 2:6-8 KJV)
In drawing all men - the elect will be saved and the non-elect will be hardened - EVEN if they might come to church services and show themselves to be OUTWARDLY associated. They are caught up in the dragnet as bad fish and sorted out as bad fishâŚ
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:47-50 KJV)
They received the outward call outwardly - but never received the effectual inner callâŚshown in Romans 8:30âŚ
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 KJV)
C
Cling2Cross
Guest
Ultimately, as we have shown, John 6 says that only those that are GIVenN BY THE FATHER to Christ can come and will comeâŚput all of these together and do not treat them individuallyâŚ
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37 KJV)
THOSE THAT THE FATHER GIVES HIM COMEâŚthis is not all peopleâŚthey will not be cast outâŚcontinuingâŚ
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44 KJV)
This is clearly an effectual drawingâŚwhyâŚbecause He will raise them up on the last day. ContinuingâŚ
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:65 KJV)
No man can comeâŚeffectually - except it is given to him of the Father. ElsewhereâŚ
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. âŚI have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. (John 17:1-10 KJV)
This âgivingâ brings about ultimate salvationâŚonly the elect are given. As you know, there is a large number of passages on those who were chosen for salvation from before the foundation of the worldâŚonly those come. The rest are left to their own devices and hardened through their resistance to the revelation given themâŚas ALL ARE âDRAWNâ (an external drawing apart from the effectual âdrawâ of John 6:44).
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37 KJV)
THOSE THAT THE FATHER GIVES HIM COMEâŚthis is not all peopleâŚthey will not be cast outâŚcontinuingâŚ
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44 KJV)
This is clearly an effectual drawingâŚwhyâŚbecause He will raise them up on the last day. ContinuingâŚ
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:65 KJV)
No man can comeâŚeffectually - except it is given to him of the Father. ElsewhereâŚ
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. âŚI have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. (John 17:1-10 KJV)
This âgivingâ brings about ultimate salvationâŚonly the elect are given. As you know, there is a large number of passages on those who were chosen for salvation from before the foundation of the worldâŚonly those come. The rest are left to their own devices and hardened through their resistance to the revelation given themâŚas ALL ARE âDRAWNâ (an external drawing apart from the effectual âdrawâ of John 6:44).
C
Cling2Cross
Guest
Regeneration happens prior to water baptismâŚas does justificationâŚ
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:10 KJV)
*
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (Acts 10:43-44 KJV)*
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;âŚ
It interests me that people want to make this âwashingâ physical waterâŚbut the Word of God itself is a cleasing agent and is mentioned as such over and over in scripture. We are born again by the Word of GodâŚ
*Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23 KJV)
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18 KJV)*
The seed of the word brings forth spirtual life as the seed of man brings forth physical life. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of GodâŚ
*This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Galatians 3:2 KJV)
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) (John 7:39 KJV)
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (Ephesians 1:13 KJV)*
Cornelius and the others were regenerated at the hearing of faithâŚillustrated and taught in scripture.
M
mikeledes
Guest
This is a very well thought out explanation, but you are assuming that âSaviorâ is being used in a non-redemptive sense. In the New Testament, the word âSaviorâ is used in a overwhelmingly redemptive sense, not in a âtemporalâ sense. Moreover, Jesus stated:
John 12:47
47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Moreover, Hebrews 2:9 states:
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
This clearly means that Jesus being Savior of the World must be understood in a redemptive sense, not in an artificial division between the temporal versus the redemptive.
To be continuedâŚ
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
You are taking John 17 out of context.
**1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. **.
Jesus starts praying first for His apostles (highlighted in red). Thatâs what He means when He states that he is not praying for the world, but the ones the Father gave him. What he means is that at that point in His prayer, He is only praying for the Twelve. Then He expands the scope of his prayer in verse 21 to include those who come to believe in Him through the preaching of His apostles (highlighted in blue) and finally ends by stating that the WORLD may come to believe in him (v. 21). John 17:9 is often taken out of context by Calvinists to mean something that it does not.
To be continuedâŚ
God Bless,
Michael
O
Odell
Guest
actually these people are taken after the tribulation period. You need to stop reading the left behind series and read scripture
Mt 24:29 Immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days the sun will darkenâŚ30 And the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven and will come upon the clouds with power and great glory.
read on to 36 and then you get where we will be taken up but all this is After the tribulation and when Jesus comes for the second and final time as scripture tells of only Jesus second coming
The rapture as you believe it has never been tought by the early fathers I dare you to find it:thumbsup:
M
mikeledes
Guest
Once again, I respond with James Akinâs response to James White. We must look to the Greek:
**John 6:37 (Not cast out)
First, in John 6:37, Jesus does say: âAll that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.â
True. I donât doubt that for a moment. If you come to Jesus, he wonât cast you out. But that doesnât mean you canât leave. In fact, you can. In order to understand this, we need to know a little bit about the Greek of this passage. I recently found a good summary of the translation issue. It said:
âThroughout this passage an important truth is presented that again might be missed by many English translations. When Jesus describes the one who comes to him and who believes in him [3:16, 5:24, 6:35, 37, 40, 47, etc.], he uses the present tense to describe this coming, believing, or, in other passages, hearing or seeing. The present tense refers to a continuous, on-going action. The Greek contrasts this kind of action against the aorist tense, which is a point action, a single action in time that is not on-going. . . . The wonderful promises that are provided by Christ are not for those who do not truly and continuously believe. The faith that saves is a living faith, a faith that always looks to Christ as Lord and Savior.â (White, 10-11).
That summary was offered by my opponent tonight, Mr. James White, in his little book, Drawn By the Father: A Summary of John 3:35-45.
So by my opponentâs own admission, âThe wonderful promises that are provided by Christ are not for those who do not . . . continuously believe.â What this text says is that anyone who continuously comes to Jesus will not be cast out by Jesus. Thatâs absolutely true. What my opponent needs is a passage which says that anyone who is ever a true Christian will always come to Jesus and never stop coming. But this passage doesnât say anything like that.**
To be continuedâŚ
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Now you are making a distinction between âexternalâ
drawing and âeffectualâ drawing that does not exist in Scipture. Iâm assuming this is a response to:
John 12:32:
32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
The word âdrawâ means to âpullâ, such as âdrawingâ water from a well. In other words, it is an attractive force that pulls whatever is being drawn towards the one doing the drawing. An âexternalâ drawing makes no sense, especially if this âextenalâ drawing actually pushes away - rather than attract - the subject being drawn. That contradicts the meaning of âdraw.â
To be continuedâŚ
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Sure, as compassionate as someone who is the only one that can offer an ill person treatment - or the opportunity to accept or reject treatment - but withholds it from that person. If you had a child and that child died of a curable illness in another personâs care and that person said to you âI genuinely wanted your child to be healed, but I made sure to purposely prevent him from receiving any treatment,â would you say âThank you for being so compassionate with my child. I donât know how Iâll repay you for your kindness?â I highly doubt that.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Anyone who truly comes to Christ is incorporated into Him. Anyone who does not genuinely come to Christ - even if they make a barren profession of faith - was never incoporated into Christ.
John 15:1-6
**1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. **
Now the typical response is that the branches that were cut off were never true believers. They only appeared to be âin Christ.â However, there is a problem with this analysis. From a purely human and temporal perspective, one can mistaken a person for being âin Christâ, being a genuine âbranch.â However, Jesus Christ can never be fooled. The branches in question do not describe themselves as being a branch in Christ the Vine. It is **Christ Himself **who describes them as a branch IN HIMSELF. If this person were not a genuine branch in the Vine, Christ would not have described him/her as such. Moreover, we have other passages in the Bible that clearly associates âcutting offâ with genuine Christians:
Romans 11:20-22
**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, Godâs kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **
Galatians 5:2-4
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
To be continuedâŚ
God Bless,
Michael
John 15:1-6
**1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. **
Now the typical response is that the branches that were cut off were never true believers. They only appeared to be âin Christ.â However, there is a problem with this analysis. From a purely human and temporal perspective, one can mistaken a person for being âin Christâ, being a genuine âbranch.â However, Jesus Christ can never be fooled. The branches in question do not describe themselves as being a branch in Christ the Vine. It is **Christ Himself **who describes them as a branch IN HIMSELF. If this person were not a genuine branch in the Vine, Christ would not have described him/her as such. Moreover, we have other passages in the Bible that clearly associates âcutting offâ with genuine Christians:
Romans 11:20-22
**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, Godâs kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **
Galatians 5:2-4
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
To be continuedâŚ
God Bless,
Michael
- Status