C
Cling2Cross
Guest
It is a waste of time to exchange with you - honestly.
- Status
O
Odell
Guest
I think honestly your stumped
(Mt 7:21) “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”
I asked you what was the will of God?
Did you not say this
again I asked
what is his will?
If you dont do his will will you enter life?
keep in mind Jesus said not everyone who calls him Lord will enter heaven but only those who do his will
So let me tell you why you think it is a wast of time
YOU HAVE NO ANSWER
therfore it would take alot of time to conjure up some pothetic way to blow off this verse.
wast of time call it what you want you have no answer
G
guanophore
Guest
Either this is a cop out, because your point has been refuted, or you are here for the wrong reasons. Perhaps you did not come here to find out what Catholics believe but to pursuade Catholics to believe as you do?
M
mikeledes
Guest
I have a response to this, but don’t have the time now. I will respond to you tomorrow, God willing.
God bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
I don’t see how. You emphasized the part where Jesus says that he does not pray for the world, but just those His father gave Him as if that were a general principle when, in fact, the “given” He was referring to in this passage was the apostles, not all of the elect. Second of all, Jesus ends His prayer by saying that "the world may believe in Him. In other words, that that first community of faith created by the preaching of the apostles will lead to the world believing in Him. His prayer starts with the very specific (apostles) and ends with the general (i.e. world).
To be continued…
God bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
[QUOT****E=Cling2Cross;3271400]Let us see - how does “don’t eat pork” show us our sin?
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:** for by the law is the knowledge of sin**. (Romans 3:20 KJV)
Do we see this elsewhere?
An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? (Romans 2:20-23 KJV)
How about here…
What *shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (Romans 7:7 KJV)
The 10 commandments show that we are sinful…
What the problem is…you cannot take the law as a list of rules to follow to be justified…that is what you seem to be teaching. You must some to Christ in repentance over sin realizing that there is nothing that you can do to earn salvation (i.e. law-keeping). This then allows us to keep the commandments through the Spirit.
When it says law in Romans - this includes the 10 commandments - period.
The law includes the 10 commandments, but Paul is speaking about the Law as a whole (ceremonial and moral precepts) and the Law he is referring to is the law of Moses.
God bless,
Michael
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:** for by the law is the knowledge of sin**. (Romans 3:20 KJV)
Do we see this elsewhere?
An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? (Romans 2:20-23 KJV)
How about here…
What *shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (Romans 7:7 KJV)
The 10 commandments show that we are sinful…
What the problem is…you cannot take the law as a list of rules to follow to be justified…that is what you seem to be teaching. You must some to Christ in repentance over sin realizing that there is nothing that you can do to earn salvation (i.e. law-keeping). This then allows us to keep the commandments through the Spirit.
When it says law in Romans - this includes the 10 commandments - period.
The law includes the 10 commandments, but Paul is speaking about the Law as a whole (ceremonial and moral precepts) and the Law he is referring to is the law of Moses.
God bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
The problem is that you are misunderstanding what Paul means by “the Law.” Romans 4 and all related passages in Romans and Galatians must be understood within their proper historical/ theological context. We must also understand what Paul meant by “The Law” and “the works of the Law.” There were those in the early years of the Church who were reverting to the Mosaic Law/ Old Covenant (i.e. circumcision, kosher laws, etc.). Many Jews and Judaizing Christians claimed that you could only be saved and be a child of God if you were a member of God’s chosen race. This could only occur in two ways: you are either born into it or you become a member by being circumcised and observing the Law of Moses. This is the controversy addressed by the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. The basic message of Paul in Romans and Galatians is that one cannot become righteous before God - liberation from the debt and power of sin - by observing the Mosaic law. If that were possible, then the Cross of Christ would not be necessary:
Galatians 2:21
**21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." **
Again, when Paul uses the the phrase “The Law”, he is talking specifically about the Mosaic Law/ The Old Covenant:
Galatians 3:17
17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
The 430 years clearly indicates that Paul has the Mosaic Law in mind when he says “The Law.” Therefore, when he uses the phrase “works of the law”, he has in mind all of the precepts associated with the Mosaic Law, especially the ceremonial laws. Note how often he refers to circumcision - which is a defining ritual of the Old Covenant - in Romans (especially Romans 4) and Galatians. Moreover, Paul makes a clear distinction between “The Law” and “The Law of Christ:”
1 Corinthians 9:20-21
**20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; ** **21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. **
The Law of Christ is love:
John 15:12
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
James 2:8
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well
And by this law we shall be judged
James 2:12:
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
The moral law of God formerly expressed in the Old Covenat now continues in the New Covenant as the Law of Christ and is given new life. The moral precepts in the Mosaic Law served to teach us what was sinful and to point out our sinfulness, but it had no power to deliver us from the power of sin (Romans 8:3). The moral law in the New Covenant is rooted in love, an internal principle that is the result of an internal change of the person, a fruit of the Cross of Christ.
God Bless,
Michael
Galatians 2:21
**21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." **
Again, when Paul uses the the phrase “The Law”, he is talking specifically about the Mosaic Law/ The Old Covenant:
Galatians 3:17
17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
The 430 years clearly indicates that Paul has the Mosaic Law in mind when he says “The Law.” Therefore, when he uses the phrase “works of the law”, he has in mind all of the precepts associated with the Mosaic Law, especially the ceremonial laws. Note how often he refers to circumcision - which is a defining ritual of the Old Covenant - in Romans (especially Romans 4) and Galatians. Moreover, Paul makes a clear distinction between “The Law” and “The Law of Christ:”
1 Corinthians 9:20-21
**20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; ** **21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. **
The Law of Christ is love:
John 15:12
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
James 2:8
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well
And by this law we shall be judged
James 2:12:
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
The moral law of God formerly expressed in the Old Covenat now continues in the New Covenant as the Law of Christ and is given new life. The moral precepts in the Mosaic Law served to teach us what was sinful and to point out our sinfulness, but it had no power to deliver us from the power of sin (Romans 8:3). The moral law in the New Covenant is rooted in love, an internal principle that is the result of an internal change of the person, a fruit of the Cross of Christ.
God Bless,
Michael
C
Cling2Cross
Guest
I think you saw two groups in the passage - the apostles (in this case - those “you have given me”…although you know and I know that there are other passages that talk about those that are given to Christ aside from the aposltes (John 6)). I saw one here today while in church…
Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. (Hebrews 2:12-13 KJV)
Another…
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. (John 10:28-29 KJV)
Here he speaks of the sheep - the elect.
Regardless, again - we look at the passage that you highlighted…
Neither pray I for **these **alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:20-21 KJV)
“These” - The apostles
The believers - all that will ever believe…
Who is left?
It is one thing to know that Christ was sent and to “believe” that He was sent…another thing to bow before Him as Lord and Savior and persevere with fruit bearing until death.
The true children of God - those who are born of God will never fall away - Only those born again - Children of God will be saved. There are no other children of God but persevering children of God. No falling away children of God…1 John takes care of this doctrine…
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:13-18 KJV)
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. **Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. **In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 2:28 - 3:10 KJV)
There are children of God and children of the devil…you cannot go in and out from these groups. Now can you read first John and say that any other person in the parable of the soils was saved but the last one? You simply cannot do it. Any other kind of “faith” is counterfeit…see James 2.
C2C
C
Cling2Cross
Guest
You are in serious error here! What I have written previously stands!
C
Cling2Cross
Guest
Not quite…when I see that people are not serious about being true to scriptural context, I simply will stop the exchange.
C
Cling2Cross
Guest
BECAUSE YOU CANNOT DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER UNLESS YU HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE!. You make the assumption that I am saying that you can come to Christ for fire insurance and then go live like the devil. We are called to serve the Lord…we are freed from sin to enjoy Him forever - to serve Him wholeheartedly and follow Him…love Him…love others by giving the gospel and helping those in need…that is what we are saved for…but, the foundation is justification by faith alone on the basis of faith in Christ as Lord, Savior, and Treasure.I think honestly your stumped
(Mt 7:21) “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”
I asked you what was the will of God?
Did you not say this
again I asked
what is his will?
If you dont do his will will you enter life?
keep in mind Jesus said not everyone who calls him Lord will enter heaven but only those who do his will
So let me tell you why you think it is a wast of time
YOU HAVE NO ANSWER
therfore it would take alot of time to conjure up some pothetic way to blow off this verse.
wast of time call it what you want you have no answer
If you are not a believer - you are under the curse in attempting to keep the commandments…
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10 KJV)
Without Christ bearing your curse - you are cursed (not speaking to you personally).
C2C
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: (Galatians 3:13 KJV)
O
Odell
Guest
**
I am under the Law of Christ**
That is not a curse
I am not burdened with trying to keep the commandment because I no longer desire to break the commandments
I have experenced true freedom in Christ its not a curse because it is not an imposition on me because my heart conforms to it.
surrender your disordered desires to Christ and let him transform them you will no longer feel cursed in keeping the Law of Christ
G
guanophore
Guest
I am puzzled by this. Are you saying that the “elect” never sin?
G
guanophore
Guest
The context of the scripture is the Catholic Church. The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics, and was never meant to be separated from the Sacred Tradition from whence it came.
C
Cling2Cross
Guest
You are missing the point of scripture entirely.**
I am under the Law of Christ**
That is not a curse
I am not burdened with trying to keep the commandment because I no longer desire to break the commandments
I have experenced true freedom in Christ its not a curse because it is not an imposition on me because my heart conforms to it.
surrender your disordered desires to Christ and let him transform them you will no longer feel cursed in keeping the Law of Christ
C
Cling2Cross
Guest
This means they do not practice sin/lawlessness. By the way - I did not say that - God did.
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. (1 John 3:6 NAS95)
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 NAS95)
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18 NAS95)
C
Cling2Cross
Guest
By the way…you should really study Romans prayerfully. Also, when did you become inherently good? What happened?**
I am under the Law of Christ**
That is not a curse
I am not burdened with trying to keep the commandment because I no longer desire to break the commandments
I have experenced true freedom in Christ its not a curse because it is not an imposition on me because my heart conforms to it.
surrender your disordered desires to Christ and let him transform them you will no longer feel cursed in keeping the Law of Christ
G
guanophore
Guest
So, do you mean to say that you do not have the struggle that is described in Rom 7, because you have no desire in you to sin?
M
mikeledes
Guest
When the Gospel of John states “believe that thou has sent me”, it means that one believes in Christ as Savior. The prayer of Jesus ends "that the WORLD may believe that thou has sent me." He starts praying for the apostles, then he prayers for the first community of believers established through the work of these apostles, and finally expands the scope of His prayer to include the world.
To be continued…
God bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
The problem is that you are taking these verses and making them mean something that they don’t mean, and I say that respectfully. First, let’s examine what these verses do not mean. They do not mean that the regenerate never sin because that would contradict 1 John 1:8-10. Moreover, it does not mean that the regenerate will never turn away from God because we have clear examples from Scripture where they do:
Galatians 1:6
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
and…
Galatians 5:4
**4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. **
We also have…
Revelation 2:20
20’But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
Or how about the case of King Solomon, who was born of God…
1 Kings 11:1-10
**1Now King Solomon loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women,
2from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the sons of Israel, “You shall not associate with them, nor shall they associate with you, for they will surely turn your heart away after their gods.” Solomon held fast to these in love.
3He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away.
4For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
6Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
7Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.
8Thus also he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.
9Now the LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice,
10and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not observe what the LORD had commanded. **
What more grievous sin can a person born of God commit than the sin of idolatry or deserting the true gospel for a false one? These are clear examples of “born of God” practicing lawlessness.
To be continued…
God bless,
Michael
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