Catholics are not saved by Works

  • Thread starter Thread starter Odell
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You are in serious error here! What I have written previously stands!
You have yet to demonstrate how I am in seriour error. Claiming that someone is in serious error is not the equivalent of proving someone is in error. However, I will quote Matthew Henry’s commentary, which is one of the most widely used and respected Bible commentaries among Calvinists. Now Matthew Henry, being a Calvinist, was in no way in favor of Catholicism. However, he makes many interesting points. Regarding the verses in James 2 that I cited regarding the Law of Chrits, Henry states:

IV. James directs Christians to govern and conduct themselves more especially by the law of Christ. So speak and so do as those that shall be judged by the law of liberty, v. 12. This will teach us, not only to be just and impartial, but very compassionate and merciful to the poor; and it will set us perfectly free from all sordid and undue regards to the rich. Observe here, 1. The gospel is called a law. It has all the requisites of a law: precepts with rewards and punishments annexed; it prescribes duty, as well as administers comfort; and Christ is a king to rule us as well as a prophet to teach us, and a priest to sacrifice and intercede for us. We are under the law to Christ. 2. It is a law of liberty, and one that we have no reason to complain of as a yoke or burden; for the service of God, according to the gospel, is perfect freedom; it sets us at liberty from all slavish regards, either to the persons or the things of this world. 3. We must all be judged by this law of liberty. Men’s eternal condition will be determined according to the gospel; this is the book that will be opened, when we shall stand before the judgment-seat; there will be no relief to those whom the gospel condemns, nor will any accusation lie against those whom the gospel justifies. 4. It concerns us therefore so to speak and act now as become those who must shortly be judged by this law of liberty; that is, that we come up to gospel terms, that we make conscience of gospel duties, that e be of a gospel temper, and that our conversation be a gospel conversation, because by this rule we must be judged. 5. The consideration of our being judged by the gospel should engage us more especially to be merciful in our regards to the poor (v. 13): For he shall have judgment without mercy that hath shown no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. Take notice here, (1.) The doom which will be passed upon impenitent sinners at last will be judgment without mercy; there will be no mixtures or allays in the cup of wrath and of trembling, the dregs of which they must drink. (2.) Such as show no mercy now shall find no mercy in the great day. But we may note, on the other hand, (3.) That there will be such as shall become instances of the triumph of mercy, in whom mercy rejoices against judgment: all the children of men, in the last day, will be either vessels of wrath or vessels of mercy. It concerns all to consider among which they shall be found; and let us remember that blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Regarding the meanining of “works of the law”, Matthew Henry says the following in his commentary on James 2:

When Paul says that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law (Rom. iii. 28), he plainly speaks of another sort of work than James does, but not of another sort of faith. Paul speaks of works wrought in obedience to the law of Moses, and before men’s embracing the faith of the gospel; and he had to deal with those who valued themselves so highly upon those works that they rejected the gospel (as Rom. x., at the beginning most expressly declares); but James speaks of works done in obedience to the gospel, and as the proper and necessary effects and fruits of sound believing in Christ Jesus. Both are concerned to magnify the faith of the gospel, as that which alone could save us and justify us; but Paul magnifies it by showing the insufficiency of any works of the law before faith, or in opposition to the doctrine of justification by Jesus Christ; James magnifies the same faith, by showing what are the genuine and necessary products and operations of it

ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc6.xx.iii.html

While Henry in no way supports the Catholic view of justification, he clearly sees that when Paul says “works of the law”, he is speaking of the Mosaic Law. The works Catholics are talking about are those works done by someone who has already been regenerated, has been forgiven of their sins, in a state of grace, and rooted in faith and love. The works of the law Paul is taling about are works that are not the products of grace and are not rooted in faith and love, and are not the works of the Gospel of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael
 
If you do not see the inward call that is effectual in scripture as opposed to the gospel call that goes out and is refused by some and accepted by others - you are not reading well. This was not a response to John 12:32…the call in Romans 8:30 is effectual…
This is based on a theological presupposition, not on Scripture. There is not a single scripture that makes the distnction between an “inward” call" and a “gospel” call. In fact, the parable of the soils demonstrate that there is an inward call even in the unbeliever:

Luke 8:11

**11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. **

Through the preaching of the Gospel, God calls inwardly (i.e. heart) the person. What I do see in Scripture are calls that are efficacious and calls that are not efficacious.

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael
 
Before I give you my promised analysis of the parable of the soils, Cling2Cross, I would like to establish three basic points:

I) The parable of the soils is a general overview - a bird’s eye view - of the various longterm responses to God’s word/grace. There are basically four longterm response categories:
  1. Those who never believe (Luke 8:12).
  2. Those who believe “for a while” and fall away in time of persecution (Luke 8:13)
  3. Those who believe but are overcome by sin (i.e. cares and pleasures of the world). (Luke 8:14)
  4. Those who believe and persevere. (Luke 8:15).
II) The parable not only discusses dispositions (i.e. rocky soil), but also circumtances (i.e. sun).

III) There is a difference between quality and genuineness. A diamond may be of poor quality, but it is a genuine diamond nonetheless. Among genuine Christians, there are different levels of spiritual maturity and different “strength” levels of faith:

1 Corinthians 3:1-3 (KJV)

1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


1 Corinthians 8:9-13

9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.


To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael
 
Thanks, Mike…honestly, I do not have the time that you have. Ultimately, your rejection of justification by faith alone as clearly spelled out in Romans and elsewhere is a rejection of the heart of the gospel itself. After memorizing Romans over the last few months, it has become very clear to me what the teachings of Paul - the Holy Spirit were concerning this doctrine. You take us elsewhere in scripture…very cleverly…and put up smoke screens to this very issue. The deeds of the law are clearly taught as including the 10 commandments - more clearly spelled out in Romans…

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20 KJV)

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law:** for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.** (Romans 7:7 KJV)

This is also brought out very clearly in the broader context. Yes - in other places he deals with circucision by itself…other places ceremonial…but - in the Romans, he clearly includes the 10 commandments…for one can never be justified by abiding by the letter in the flesh…one must be born of the Spirit to truly love. Those that try to keep the commandments in the flesh are under the curse (Gal 3:10)…

You need to study Romans with an honest and prayerful heart before God. If you won’t see it…you won’t see it.

Your other passages that can be interpreted in other ways are being used to negate other very clear statements of scripture. You throw wrenches into places (because you are very intelligent) that I do not have time to undo because it takes too much time and effort and I am very busy.

Thanks and may you truly seek to find the truth rather than follow men (turning a blind eye to the plain meaning of scripture).
 
Thanks, Mike…honestly, I do not have the time that you have. Ultimately, your rejection of justification by faith alone as clearly spelled out in Romans and elsewhere is a rejection of the heart of the gospel itself. After memorizing Romans over the last few months, it has become very clear to me what the teachings of Paul - the Holy Spirit were concerning this doctrine. You take us elsewhere in scripture…very cleverly…and put up smoke screens to this very issue. The deeds of the law are clearly taught as including the 10 commandments - more clearly spelled out in Romans…

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20 KJV)

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law:** for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.** (Romans 7:7 KJV)

This is also brought out very clearly in the broader context. Yes - in other places he deals with circucision by itself…other places ceremonial…but - in the Romans, he clearly includes the 10 commandments…for one can never be justified by abiding by the letter in the flesh…one must be born of the Spirit to truly love. Those that try to keep the commandments in the flesh are under the curse (Gal 3:10)…

You need to study Romans with an honest and prayerful heart before God. If you won’t see it…you won’t see it.

Your other passages that can be interpreted in other ways are being used to negate other very clear statements of scripture. You throw wrenches into places (because you are very intelligent) that I do not have time to undo because it takes too much time and effort and I am very busy.

Thanks and may you truly seek to find the truth rather than follow men (turning a blind eye to the plain meaning of scripture).
First of all, I admitted that the Mosaic Law includes the ten commandments. I said in my post:
The moral law of God formerly expressed in the Old Covenat now continues in the New Covenant as the Law of Christ and is given new life. The moral precepts in the Mosaic Law served to teach us what was sinful and to point out our sinfulness, but it had no power to deliver us from the power of sin (Romans 8:3). The moral law in the New Covenant is rooted in love, an internal principle that is the result of an internal change of the person, a fruit of the Cross of Christ.
However, I have also cited a CALVINIST SOURCE who clearly sees that the “works of the law” is referring to the Mosaic Covenant. The works Catholics are talking about are works done by A PERSON ALREADY RIGHT WITH GOD and are the works of the Law of Christ. Apparently, you are more intent on attacking a straw man then on actually responding to my argument. If you don’t have the time to carefully read what I argue, then please do not respond until you have found the time to do so. I give you the same suggestion you gave me “You need to study Romans with an honest and prayerful heart before God.” You also make insulting assumptions about me that truly reek of arrogance (i.e. “You throw wrenches into places (because you are very intelligent)”, “may you truly seek to find the truth rather than follow men (turning a blind eye to the plain meaning of scripture”) Remember that the Pharisees were very certain that they were right and searched the Scriptures. Are you so certain that you see the plain meaning of Scripture? Then why do most Calvinist theologians - including Wayne Grudem and John Piper - identify “drawing” with “regeneration” while you see the two as distinct? You are a five point Calvinist, obviously. Then why do Four Point Calvinist disagree with you and claim that they are reading the plain meaning of Scripture? Why do you have Calvinist credobaptists and Calvinist pedobaptists, both claiming that they are reading “the plain meaning of Scripture?” I prayerfully ask that you stop making assumptions about others and read their responses with an open mind.

And I would like to thank Protestants like myfavoritemartin and Nick Jones who have shown nothing but respect for me - and I am speaking on my own personal experience with them - without necessarily compromising on their beliefs or being arrogant about it.

God Bless,
Michael
 
This means they do not practice sin/lawlessness. By the way - I did not say that - God did.

No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. (1 John 3:6 NAS95)

No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 NAS95)

We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18 NAS95)
If we read the plain literal meaning of these passages, you never sin. You must be morally perfect.

God Bless,
Michael
 
If we read the plain literal meaning of these passages, you never sin. You must be morally perfect.

God Bless,
Michael
Hi Michael,

Are you saying that moral perfection (post fall, during our mortal lives) is possible somehow, perhaps by infused righteousness?
 
Who said faith and works were opposed to each other?

Philippians 2:12-14 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
 
Hi Michael,

Are you saying that moral perfection (post fall, during our mortal lives) is possible somehow, perhaps by infused righteousness?
Hi Nick! Moral perfection in the sense of perfect sinlessness after regeneration? No. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
 
Thanks and may you truly seek to find the truth rather than follow men (turning a blind eye to the plain meaning of scripture).
Oh, BTW, according to your own plain reading of Scripture, all infants that die go to heaven.
Babies go to heaven…

“But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I** shall go to him**, but he shall not return to me.”” (2 Samuel 12:23, NKJV)

Of such is the kingdom of heaven.

C2C

*“Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”” (1 Samuel 28:19, NKJV) *
Ironically, this “plain reading” of Scripture contradicts other Calvinists’s “plain reading of Scripture.”

God Bess,
Michael
 
You need to study Romans with an honest and prayerful heart before God. If you won’t see it…you won’t see it.

Your other passages that can be interpreted in other ways are being used to negate other very clear statements of scripture. You throw wrenches into places (because you are very intelligent) that I do not have time to undo because it takes too much time and effort and I am very busy.

Thanks and may you truly seek to find the truth rather than follow men (turning a blind eye to the plain meaning of scripture).
Take a look in the mirror before you spew this stuff to someone else that has the same authority from the Holy Spirit as yourself. Clearly one of you is wrong!

Now is it the guy that truly seeks the truth by following man made traditions or is it the Catholic guy?!
 
You are missing the point of scripture entirely.
By the way…you should really study Romans prayerfully. Also, when did you become inherently good? What happened?
How?

Do you not abide by the Law of Christ?

Was it not you who said you do the will of God?

Is it not you who cant answer questions like

IF YOU did not do the will of God would YOU enter LIFE

I am bound by the Law of Christ

You can show the world your faith without the Law of Christ but I choose to deminstrate my faith by my actions because I am in Christ.

aparently this is to big of a burden on you

**So I pray that you harden not your heart and surender to **Christ.👍
 
Sorry I have made some people upset here…I disagree with much of what you say and it sems that we have many misunderstandings. Anyway…forgive me for my getting excited. Really, I do not have time for this forum.

In Christ,

C2C
 
Sorry I have made some people upset here…I disagree with much of what you say and it sems that we have many misunderstandings. Anyway…forgive me for my getting excited. Really, I do not have time for this forum.

In Christ,

C2C
Apology accpeted. All we ask is that you carefully read our posts with an open mind, that you respond respectfully, and that you give a reason for disagreeing -based on Scripture - in your rebuttals. 🙂

And when I have the time - hopefully tomorrow - I will give you my analysis of the parable of the soils.

God Bless,
Michael
 
The Epistle of St. James makes it very clear that faith alone is not sufficient. At the same time, Catholic doctrine teaches that “works alone” do not win salvation for a person.

If the Protestant insists that the Catholic Church teaches “salvation by works”, I think a good challenge for that person would be to “show me where Catholic doctrine teaches that”.

Chances are, the person just heard it said that Catholicism is a “works based” religion, but there’s no evidence to support it.
That is not entirely correct. James was speaking of dead faith, it can’t save with or without works. The deeds which naturally flow from true faith are evidence of the true faith.
 
That is not entirely correct. James was speaking of dead faith, it can’t save with or without works. The deeds which naturally flow from true faith are evidence of the true faith.
And the thred goes on

so faith has to work to count. Deed faith is faith without works

Only faith that works in love will grant you enternal life

(Gal 5:6) “Only faith working through love counts for anything.” That is how we put faith in action, WORKING through love. Faith has to work to count for anything; it cannot be by itself.

so to your response where you say faith doesnt save with or without works I would respond with scripture only faith working counts

follow?
 
BECAUSE YOU CANNOT DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER UNLESS YU HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE!.

If you are not a believer - you are under the curse in attempting to keep the commandments…

Neither of those statement are true.

Romans 2:
14
For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16
on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

The “curse of the law” that Paul speaks of has to do with the breaking of the law – and everyone breaks the law. Paul is not referring to the law as a curse,but the breaking of the law brings a curse. The Jewish law was not bad,but good. But it was a curse for those Jews who did not do what is prescribed,or for those who followed the letter of the law but not the spirit. The spirit of the law is love of God,and love of one’s neighbor as one’s self. And the way in which to uphold the spirit of the law is to obey God’s commandments.

25
Circumcision, to be sure, has value if you observe the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26
Again, if an uncircumcised man keeps the precepts of the law, will he not be considered circumcised?
27
Indeed, those who are physically uncircumcised but carry out the law will pass judgment on you, with your written law and circumcision, who break the law.
28
One is not a Jew outwardly. True circumcision is not outward, in the flesh.
29
Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter; his praise is not from human beings but from God.

Paul does not say that it is a curse to abide by the commandments. He is saying that faith in Christ frees us from the curse of the law,not from the need to uphold the law.
The curse comes with our inability to live up to the commandments perfectly,of being sinners. That is where faith in Christ is needed,because Christ’s love covers a multitude of sins. But that does not undermine the need to uphold the commandments. Our faithfullness to Christ,our fullness of faith, depends upon our works.

Romans 3,31:

Are we then annulling the law by this faith? Of course not! On the contrary, we are supporting the law.

See also posts 545 and 547.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top