Catholics assist in genocide!!

[R_McGeddon]

I have lost count of the number of people, on this forum, saying how Hitler’s “atheist regime” was responsible for some of the greatest crimes against humanity, then I happen across this website

libcom.org

and find that the Catholic church assisted Hitler in an attempt to exterminate the Orthodox from parts of the Balkans. I’ve read the contents of that link and it doesn’t make pleasant reading. I’m not trying to condone what Hitler did but certain members of this forum have, in the past, taken great delight in tarring atheists with the same brush as Hitler, when it turns out that the Catholic church, led by Pius XII, has taken part in crimes against humanity.

I find this level of hypocrisy staggering and indefensible.

 

[Deconi]

I have lost count of the number of people, on this forum, saying how Hitler’s “atheist regime” was responsible for some of the greatest crimes against humanity, then I happen across this website

libcom.org

and find that the Catholic church assisted Hitler in an attempt to exterminate the Orthodox from parts of the Balkans. I’ve read the contents of that link and it doesn’t make pleasant reading. I’m not trying to condone what Hitler did but certain members of this forum have, in the past, taken great delight in tarring atheists with the same brush as Hitler, when it turns out that the Catholic church, led by Pius XII, has taken part in crimes against humanity.

I find this level of hypocrisy staggering and indefensible.

What I find ‘staggering’ is your support for anti-Catholic material without research, having deduced from your post a level of intelligence that is quite capable of making some attempt of objectivity. My bad, I s’pose.

For one thing, Hitler was a ‘Christian’ in his youth. I don’t think he was Catholic though. Stalin was the Catholic one, but I may have mixed them there.

PiusXII and the Catholic Church saved more Jews than The Red Cross and from memory, any other individual nation.

Do some research, will ya?

 

[R_McGeddon]

What I find ‘staggering’ is your support for anti-Catholic material without research, having deduced from your post a level of intelligence that is quite capable of making some attempt of objectivity. My bad, I s’pose.

Are you saying that the article is untrue?

For your information, I do not support anti or pro catholic material because both are biased in their own favour.

PiusXII and the Catholic Church saved more Jews than The Red Cross and from memory, any other individual nation.

This may or may not be true but it does not justify their actions in the Balkans.

Do some research, will ya?

I’ll get back to you with what I find.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Are you saying that the article is untrue?

Apparently it is. It doesn’t take a lot of online research to persuade one of that. I note in passing that the American Jewish Committee, for one, said the charges against Cdl Stepinac, the supposed central Church actor in this, were fabricated.

Looks like the communist regime in the former Yugoslavia went to great pains to concoct slanders against the Church generally and against Stepinac and Pius XII in particular. The communist regime, likely aided by the Soviets, who were very good at creating “evidence” for bogus “show trials” was likely the source of this stuff. I doubt it’s any more worthy of serious consideration, than the “evidence” against, e.g., Bukharin. (and thousands of others)

Of course, it does have a lingering utility for the enemies of Catholicism, whereas the evidence against Bukharin is no longer useful to anyone.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Hmmmm. Here’s how your source describes itself:

"Our name, libcom, is an abbreviation of “libertarian communism”

I think I would be looking elsewhere for my understanding of history.

 

[Fidelis]

For your information, I do not support anti or pro catholic material because both are biased in their own favour.

The site you referenced is a communist/athiest site which can hardly be not considered an “anti-Catholic” or at least anti-Christian resource.

Here’s just one example:
libcom.org/library/the-god-pestilence-johann-most

If you won’t “support” or at least consider alternate readings of history from a Catholic viewpoint, then forgive us if we “don’t support” your reference either.:dts:

Seems we’re at an impasse.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

What I find ‘staggering’ is your support for anti-Catholic material without research, having deduced from your post a level of intelligence that is quite capable of making some attempt of objectivity. My bad, I s’pose.

For one thing, Hitler was a ‘Christian’ in his youth. I don’t think he was Catholic though. Stalin was the Catholic one, but I may have mixed them there.

PiusXII and the Catholic Church saved more Jews than The Red Cross and from memory, any other individual nation.

Do some research, will ya?

Hitler was raised Catholic, but left the Church when he was in his teens or early adulthood.

Stalin was Orthodox and was considering becoming a priest.

I do not find it a coincidence that two of the worst mass murders in history left their respective Churches for paganism/atheism.

 

[wanner47]

Is this source “neutral” enough for you?

telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/30/wisrael130.xml

I’d encourage you to find more reputable sources for your claim. Any nutjob with an axe to grind can make wild claims and put them on the Internet as “fact.” The question is, can those claims be verified by other sources, preferably fairly neutral ones, or at least ones with a high degree of reliability? It doesn’t look like yours can.

 

[CentralFLJames]

For your information, I do not support anti or pro catholic material because both are biased in their own favour.

You make it sound like there is something inherently wrong with a bias for the truth? Do you personally embrace a philosophy of neutrality in all things and pay no heed to use God given common sense to differentiate black from white or shades of grey?

Why even participate in forum discussions or read any book on the planet since everyone has their own biases? Why listen to your own conscience if it is biased to your own favor?

Why listen to God or read the Bible if He has biased it with the truth that favors Him?

I’m always just curious what a person can support who purges his mind of all bias and accepts nothing as truth?

James

 

[Janet_S]

Vladimir Ilyich Lenin said this in his deathbed confession to a Hungarian priest:

I have been mistaken. It was necessary, I suppose, to liberate the multitude of oppressed people; but our method has provoked other oppressions, frightful massacres. You know that my most awful nightmare is to feel myself drowning in the blood of countless victims. To save our Russia, what we needed (but it is too late now) was ten Francises of Assisi. Ten Francises of Assisi, and we should have saved Russia–The Francis Book.

 

[Kaninchen]

Vladimir Ilyich Lenin said this in his deathbed confession to a Hungarian priest:

In the list of “Unbelievable Deathbed Confessions”, the idea of Lenin and a Hungarian priest has to be pretty near the top.

Where on earth is the evidence for this? I mean serious evidence.

 

[Kaninchen]

Apparently it is. It doesn’t take a lot of online research to persuade one of that. I note in passing that the American Jewish Committee, for one, said the charges against Cdl Stepinac, the supposed central Church actor in this, were fabricated.

A bad article about places like Croatia (or Slovakia for that matter) doesn’t mean that the Church hierarchies in those countries are exactly off the hook, does it?

I would suggest that just saying “nothing bad that happened was anything to do with us” whenever people raise questions about the behavior of the Church in that period devalues those brave Catholics who stood out against the horror rather than absolves those who went along (sometimes enthusiastically) with it all. That Stepinac was wrongly tarred with the Ustaše brush doesn’t make the history of the ‘clerical fascism’ go away.

 

[GKC]

In the list of “Unbelievable Deathbed Confessions”, the idea of Lenin and a Hungarian priest has to be pretty near the top.

Where on earth is the evidence for this? I mean serious evidence.

The timing of that death bed confession would be a little tricky. IIRC, from the time of his 1923 stroke, until his death the following year, Lenin was unable to speak or move.

GKC

 

[Kaninchen]

The timing of that death bed confession would be a little tricky. IIRC, from the time of his 1923 stroke, until his death the following year, Lenin was unable to speak or move.

GKC

Might have mistaken any noises he made as Magyar?

The idea of Nadezhda Krupskaya sending off for a (Catholic, apparently) priest for a speechless Vladimir Illych does have its amusing possibilities.

 

[GKC]

Might have mistaken any noises he made as Magyar?

The idea of Nadezhda Krupskaya sending off for a (Catholic, apparently) priest for a speechless Vladimir Illych does have its amusing possibilities.

Wives do strange things, but…

GKC

 

[CapIV]

firstly, the sources for your claim, libcom.org, are hardly reputable. Similarly, the article sites the book “Hitler’s Pope” a book that is very widely condemned in academic circles as being false.

Hitler was born Catholic but after leaving home never attended Mass or received any sacraments. In fact, he planed on taking over the Vatican for himself. For a while, he created his own version of Christianity, much like Jefferson did. He changed the books of the New Testament and added verses of his own to justify and rationalize his actions. Towards the end of his life, he did indeed become very ani-Christianity all together not just anti-Catholic.

Realistically, it is not far fetched I think to suggest that there were probably some Catholic priests who aided in some atrocities. But the suggestion that this activity was sanctioned by the Church or that it was by any means a wide-spread conspiracy is absurd.

 

[LilyM]

A bad article about places like Croatia (or Slovakia for that matter) doesn’t mean that the Church hierarchies in those countries are exactly off the hook, does it?

I would suggest that just saying “nothing bad that happened was anything to do with us” whenever people raise questions about the behavior of the Church in that period devalues those brave Catholics who stood out against the horror rather than absolves those who went along (sometimes enthusiastically) with it all. That Stepinac was wrongly tarred with the Ustaše brush doesn’t make the history of the ‘clerical fascism’ go away.

Please, I have family on both sides of this particular issue - namely Croats and Serbs, who were the main focus of their atrocities.

We can focus on Serbs, since both Stepinac in general and the Church as a whole did do plenty to protect Jews. So much so that the Chief Rabbi of Rome, who had been sheltered in the Vatican itself during the war, converted to Catholicism afterwards. He wouldn’t have done that if Catholic clerics in Croatia had methodically and on a large scale been massacring his Jewish brothers and sisters.

Now in regard to Croat-Serb atrocities, I can assure you if there was ‘clerical fascism’ on the part of Croat clergy (and I’m not saying there was none), there was similarly on the part of the Serb Orthodox which was targeted against Croat Catholic priests and religious. My family lived through it, they’ve said as much and I have no reason to disbelieve them.

The horrors of that war were enough to drive even clerics, of different nationalities and stripes, to take up arms, and, yes, some of them committed acts of atrocity in so doing. I don’t want to downplay or negate this fact, just to state emphatically that neither side has clean hands in this regard.

 

[Kaninchen]

Realistically, it is not far fetched I think to suggest that there were probably some Catholic priests who aided in some atrocities. But the suggestion that this activity was sanctioned by the Church or that it was by any means a wide-spread conspiracy is absurd.

Realistically, it was a lot more than that - something that the endless dialogs of the deaf about Pius himself tend to obfuscate - particularly in Croatia and Slovakia.

 

[Janet_S]

In the list of “Unbelievable Deathbed Confessions”, the idea of Lenin and a Hungarian priest has to be pretty near the top.

Where on earth is the evidence for this? I mean serious evidence.

Fr Benedict Groeschel has mentioned this before, so I Googled it.

I found 3 different quotes on the internet:

I have been mistaken. It was necessary, I suppose, to liberate the multitude of oppressed people; but our method has provoked other oppressions, frightful massacres. You know that my most awful nightmare is to feel myself drowning in the blood of countless victims. To save our Russia, what we needed (but it is too late now) was ten Francises of Assisi. Ten Francises of Assisi, and we should have saved Russia.—Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, in his deathbed confession to a Hungarian priest, quoted in The Francis Book
frimmin.com/etcetera/prevwis1.html

Note: “confession” doesn’t necessarily mean “sacramental confession.”

I have deluded myself. Without doubt, it was necessary to free the oppressed masses. However, our methods resulted in other oppressions and gruesome massacres. You know I am deathly ill; I feel lost in an ocean of blood formed by countless victims. This was necessary to save our Russia, but it is too late to turn back. We would need ten Francis of Assisi.
Lenin at the end of his life, 1924
franciscanfriarstor.com/stfrancis/stf_thomas_of_celano_writes.htm

Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, the (in)famous 20th century revolutionary, reflecting on his own life, in the light of the life of his 12th century ‘comrade’, wrote in his Letters On Modern Atheism: ‘I made a mistake. Without doubt the oppressed multitude had to be liberated. But our method only provoked further oppression–and atrocious massacres. It is too late now to alter the past–but what was needed to save Russia were ten Francis of Assisi’s’
daveandrews.com.au/articles/Engaging%20a%20New%20Dark%20Age.pdf

 

[GKC]

Fr Benedict Groeschel has mentioned this before, so I Googled it.

I found 3 different quotes on the internet:

Note: “confession” doesn’t necessarily mean “sacramental confession.”

I had googled it, too, out of curiousity. I found yet another citation, from a TIME magazine article.

I am not even slightly convinced. Esp. that it was a death-bed statement, to a priest, in any capacity. Lenin, unless the bio works I’ve read were wrong, was unable to move or communicate the last 11 months of his life, more or less. And that includes 1924.

It would take a more scholarly citations than these, to make me think Lenin would say it at all. Not at death’s door, to be sure.

GKC