Catholics, Born Again?

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We are told in Catholcism that Catholics are, indeed, born again. When? At Baptism! From the “Are Catholics Born Again??” tract on the Catholic Answers site, we are told…
  • When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,” he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being “born again.”
So, this means that all of those in the Catholic Church are born again. I think we would agree there. As a Protestant, I will not say that every person that walks an aisle, says the sinners prayer, raises their hand, fills out a decision slip - or is even baptized is born again…make sure you remember this remark in responding to my inquiry. Now…we need to look into the book of first John for the marks of one who has been born of God…

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Please understand, this scripture and others like it are not insinuating that a person can get to a point that they never sin. This simply takes on the idea of practicing sin regularly…enjoying it…wallowing in it…non-repentant.

OK - moving on…

1John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}

1John 5:4 For **whatsoever is born of God **overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1John 5:18 We know that **whosoever is born of God **sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

1John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

NOW…if all Catholics are born of God/born again at baptism…why do we have many that are spirtually dead and in some cases, wicked?? Please answer this question.

Remember my point above…As a Protestant, I will not say that every person that walks an aisle, says the sinners prayer, raises their hand, fills out a decision slip is born again

Thank you.
 
It depends on what one decides to do with a gift received. Do we celebrate the gift and embrace it or do we decide to ignore the gift and leave it unopened? Baptism isn’t necessarily what you get out of it–it is also what you put into it.
 
And let us not forget with Adam and Eve did with the ‘gifts’ they received. God offered them innocence, life without death, food and beast of every possibility…yet they chose to listen to the serpent instead of the admonition of God. Freewill will get you every time.😉
 
Linkowski said:
We are told in Catholcism that Catholics are, indeed, born again. When? At Baptism! From the “Are Catholics Born Again??” tract on the Catholic Answers site, we are told…
  • When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,” he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being “born again.”
So, this means that all of those in the Catholic Church are born again. I think we would agree there. As a Protestant, I will not say that every person that walks an aisle, says the sinners prayer, raises their hand, fills out a decision slip - or is even baptized is born again…make sure you remember this remark in responding to my inquiry. Now…we need to look into the book of first John for the marks of one who has been born of God…

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Please understand, this scripture and others like it are not insinuating that a person can get to a point that they never sin. This simply takes on the idea of practicing sin regularly…enjoying it…wallowing in it…non-repentant.

OK - moving on…

1John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}

1John 5:4 For **whatsoever is born of God **overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1John 5:18 We know that **whosoever is born of God **sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

1John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

NOW…if all Catholics are born of God/born again at baptism…why do we have many that are spirtually dead and in some cases, wicked?? Please answer this question.

Remember my point above…As a Protestant, I will not say that every person that walks an aisle, says the sinners prayer, raises their hand, fills out a decision slip is born again

Thank you.
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You seem to be assuming “once saved, always saved”. We Catholics do not believe that. As a God created person with free will I can choose to turn my back on God. I can choose to be wicked or spiritually dead…or I can choose life. If, after choosing wickedness for part of my life, I choose to come back to God and His Church I can do so via the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Does that answer your question?
 
Linkowski said:
NOW…if all Catholics are born of God/born again at baptism…why do we have many that are spirtually dead and in some cases, wicked?? Please answer this question.
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Roman 6:3-4
Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? 4 For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:11-12
In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, but in the circumcision of Christ: 12 deselect this verse Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead.

Uh huh, but it is because we do not believe “Once you are saved, you are saved”.

Philippians 2:12

Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

Those who just say I believe in God with their mouths, but their hearts are full of hatred towards others, their salvation can be lost.
 
Baptism is a rite of intitiation, not an end in itself. It’s purpose is to remove the stain of original sin to allow the grace of God to operate in one’s heart and life. So, no Catholic is “depending” on his baptism as a sure ticket to heaven.

The Church celebrates many sacraments established by Christ that help us along the way. It is up to us to take full advantage of them, as well as of prayer, Scripture study, study of Church teachings, and discerning God’s will for our lives. If we think we are all right simply because we go to Mass when we feel like it or because we were brought up in the Church, that certainly isn’t “enough,” and the Church clearly teaches that it isn’t.

Walking in the grace of God is a life long endeavor, not something to be taken for granted. Just now we are celebrating Lent, which calls us to repentence and renewal of life in Christ. If people don’t take advantage of it, they are only hurting themselves. This is one of the reasons this forum exists, to bring the truths of the faith to all, Catholics and non-Catholics alike, so that everyone can have that truth and live by it.
 
Della said:
Baptism is a rite of intitiation, not an end in itself. It’s purpose is to remove the stain of original sin to allow the grace of God to operate in one’s heart and life. So, no Catholic is “depending” on his baptism as a sure ticket to heaven.

The Church celebrates many sacraments established by Christ that help us along the way. It is up to us to take full advantage of them, as well as of prayer, Scripture study, study of Church teachings, and discerning God’s will for our lives. If we think we are all right simply because we go to Mass when we feel like it or because we were brought up in the Church, that certainly isn’t “enough,” and the Church clearly teaches that it isn’t.

Walking in the grace of God is a life long endeavor, not something to be taken for granted. Just now we are celebrating Lent, which calls us to repentence and renewal of life in Christ. If people don’t take advantage of it, they are only hurting themselves. This is one of the reasons this forum exists, to bring the truths of the faith to all, Catholics and non-Catholics alike, so that everyone can have that truth and live by it.
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Thank you for this very clear answer!
 
You know why is it that OSAS Christians feel that this is the only Christian theology…

Your a minority even within protestantism… It really didnt exist in its current form until the 1800’s. Dont beleive me… Look it up… It Did NOT exists as you know it untill the so call Great Awakening in American history…

Anyway… Research history guys… not what you want to believe…

In Christ
 
Linkowski said:
We are told in Catholcism that Catholics are, indeed, born again. When? At Baptism! From the “Are Catholics Born Again??” tract on the Catholic Answers site, we are told…
  • When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,” he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism
Click to expand...
. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being “born again.”

So, this means that all of those in the Catholic Church are born again. I think we would agree there. As a Protestant, I will not say that every person that walks an aisle, says the sinners prayer, raises their hand, fills out a decision slip - or is even baptized is born again…make sure you remember this remark in responding to my inquiry. Now…we need to look into the book of first John for the marks of one who has been born of God…

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Please understand, this scripture and others like it are not insinuating that a person can get to a point that they never sin. This simply takes on the idea of practicing sin regularly…enjoying it…wallowing in it…non-repentant.

OK - moving on…

1John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}

1John 5:4 For **whatsoever is born of God **overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1John 5:18 We know that **whosoever is born of God **sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

1John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

NOW…if all Catholics are born of God/born again at baptism…why do we have many that are spirtually dead and in some cases, wicked?? Please answer this question.

Remember my point above…As a Protestant, I will not say that every person that walks an aisle, says the sinners prayer, raises their hand, fills out a decision slip is born again

Thank you.For the very same reason that there are so many similar souls in your churches.

You make it sound as if this is unique to the Catholic faith which is a rash generalization and patently untrue.

It’s really simple.
Matthew 13
Mark 4
Luke 8
Also from Matthew 13. 24 Another parable he proposed to them, saying: The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man that sowed good seeds in his field. 25 But while men were asleep, his enemy came and oversowed cockle among the wheat and went his way.

26 And when the blade was sprung up, and had brought forth fruit, then appeared also the cockle. 27 And the servants of the goodman of the house coming said to him: Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it cockle? 28 And he said to them: An enemy hath done this. And the servants said to him: Wilt thou that we go and gather it up? 29 And he said: No, lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you root up the wheat also together with it. 30 Suffer both to grow until the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up first the cockle, and bind it into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather ye into my barn.

James 5:19-20 19 My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: 20 He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.
 
Linkowski said:
We are told in Catholcism that Catholics are, indeed, born again. When? At Baptism! From the “Are Catholics Born Again??” tract on the Catholic Answers site, we are told…
… wicked?? Please answer this question.

Remember my point above…As a Protestant, I will not say that every person that walks an aisle, says the sinners prayer, raises their hand, fills out a decision slip is born again

Thank you.
Click to expand...
Of all that scripture you quote, not a single one has the word AGAIN.
Only ONE NT book used.
No Gospel quotes used.
The ONLY place where “Born again” is even used is:
John 3
3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3
4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again?
John 3
5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3
7 Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again.
1 Peter 1
23 Being born again not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, by the word of God who liveth and remaineth for ever.
Why is that?
Just curious. The rest of your posts seem to be INTERPRETATIONS, not Scripture…BIG, really BIG difference…unless you have Infallible Interpretation. If you do, and therefore CANNOT be in error on interpretation, then I apologize.
 
TNT said:
Of all that scripture you quote, not a single one has the word AGAIN.
Why is that?
Best I recall, I was born of my parents, not “of God”.
The only one claimed to be “born of God” was Jesus of the NT.
Just curious. The rest of your posts seem to be INTERPRETATIONS, not Scripture…BIG, really BIG difference…unless you have Infallible Interpretation. If you do, and therefore CANNOT be in error on interpretation, then I apologize.
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From John 3.
1: Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode’mus, a ruler of the Jews.
2: This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”
3: Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4: Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5: Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born anew.’
8: The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit.”

**Acts 22:16: And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ **
 
TNT said:
Of all that scripture you quote, not a single one has the word AGAIN.
Why is that?
Just curious. The rest of your posts seem to be INTERPRETATIONS, not Scripture…BIG, really BIG difference…unless you have Infallible Interpretation. If you do, and therefore CANNOT be in error on interpretation, then I apologize.
Click to expand...
Hi,
Read John Chapter 3 if you want to see the term born again:thumbsup:
 
Ok, guys, you posted me before I was finished editing.
I do know where “born again” is located…Dahhh. I wanted to know why the OP had skipped every one of them.
NOW u can read my prev. post.
 
My answer when someone asks me if I’m born again is that I was born again the day I was baptized. If we ended up talking more about it I’d tell them I’m still “being born again”. And I’ll be “born again” after I die, hopefully! And a couple of years ago I had a very distinct “born again” experience too. It’s a phrase that can refer to so many things. And we’re born again every time we come out of the confessional!
 
TNT said:
Ok, guys, you posted me before I was finished editing.
I do know where “born again” is located…Dahhh. I wanted to know why the OP had skipped every one of them.
NOW u can read my prev. post.
Click to expand...
👍
 
kell0618 said:
It depends on what one decides to do with a gift received. Do we celebrate the gift and embrace it or do we decide to ignore the gift and leave it unopened? Baptism isn’t necessarily what you get out of it–it is also what you put into it.
Click to expand...
I started this thread and then had NO time to take part in it later until now - about 24 hours later…anyway…This does not answer the problem and it is clearly this problem…
  1. Catholic are born again at baptism
  2. Therefore…all Catholics are born again
  3. 1 John gives characteristics of the born again (as presented at the beginning of the thread)
  4. Many Catholics fall well short of these characteristics
  5. Therefore - the rebirth must not happen when Catholics are baptized.
So, why is there this discrepancy?
 
DallasCatholic said:
You seem to be assuming “once saved, always saved”. We Catholics do not believe that. As a God created person with free will I can choose to turn my back on God. I can choose to be wicked or spiritually dead…or I can choose life. If, after choosing wickedness for part of my life, I choose to come back to God and His Church I can do so via the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Does that answer your question?
Click to expand...
Where did I say that?

I did not, in fact, say that…BUT…what I am encouraged about is that you read it from the scriptures.

Here is a question…CAN WE DO WHATEVER WE WANT?? God says no…

Look at this scripture (this one is fresh in my mind)…

Psalm 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

All of the wrath from man accomplishes God’s will - but anything over and above that, God restrains it - does not allow it to happen.
 
TNT said:
Of all that scripture you quote, not a single one has the word AGAIN.
Only ONE NT book used.
No Gospel quotes used.
The ONLY place where “Born again” is even used is:
John 3
3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3
4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again?
John 3
5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3
7 Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again.
1 Peter 1
23 Being born again not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, by the word of God who liveth and remaineth for ever.
Why is that?
Just curious. The rest of your posts seem to be INTERPRETATIONS, not Scripture…BIG, really BIG difference…unless you have Infallible Interpretation. If you do, and therefore CANNOT be in error on interpretation, then I apologize.
Click to expand...
When you are born of God - you are born again…unless there are many different rebirths. This is an attempt to circumvent the issue.
 
Linkowski said:
Where did I say that?

I did not, in fact, say that…BUT…what I am encouraged about is that you read it from the scriptures.

Here is a question…CAN WE DO WHATEVER WE WANT?? God says no…

Look at this scripture (this one is fresh in my mind)…

Psalm 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

All of the wrath from man accomplishes God’s will - but anything over and above that, God restrains it - does not allow it to happen.
Click to expand...
Umm, no I did not “read it from the scriptures” since it isn’t in the scriptures. I was referring to YOUR interpretation. The only person born of God is Jesus Christ. Since you admit that those who have been baptized can still sin, then I do not understand what you are asking.
 
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