Catholics, Born Again?

[JonathanKinsman]

Born from above, born again, born of God…they are all the same. I do not know what more to tell you on this one.

And here you are obviously quoting from your bible, right Linkowski?

So, would you please post your scriptural sources for these?

Thanks

Pax Christi

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Here is a question…CAN WE DO WHATEVER WE WANT?? God says no…

Psalm 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

All of the wrath from man accomplishes God’s will - but anything over and above that, God restrains it - does not allow it to happen.

Heavens to Betsy, Linkowski!

How in the heck did you get the answer to “CAN WE DO WHATEVER WE WANT??” from Psalm 76:10??!!

Quit reading concepts and doctrines into the Bible, it will only confuse you further.

Steady and go slow. Stick to the common sense reading in context (who was the original addressees of St Paul’s letters for example) and take all of the NT message as a unified whole, not a sourcebook for goofy games of
gotcha!

Pax Christi

 

[cecilia97]

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Why do you say that you are being born when it is presented in scripture as being a past event?

I said I have been born again, I am being born again, and I will be born again. Past, present, and future.

 

[Linkowski]

I said I have been born again, I am being born again, and I will be born again. Past, present, and future.

100% unscriptural

 

[water]

100% unscriptural

Don’t try to be picky on the words people use!

You know better than this.

When the person said born again and again and again, I could think what the person means - we are growing spiritually day after day. Hey, let the person explain.

If you are not so sure, **don’t be 100% so sure **what others meant - A wise thing to do is to ask the person for explanation.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Don’t try to be picky on the words people use!

You know better than this.

When the person said born again and again and again, I could think what the person means - we are growing spiritually day after day. Hey, let the person explain.

If you are not so sure, **don’t be 100% so sure **what others meant - A wise thing to do is to ask the person for explanation.

He doesn’t understand Catholicism. He spread lies. He is deceived by the Father of Lies.

 

[Linkowski]

He doesn’t understand Catholicism. He spread lies. He is deceived by the Father of Lies.

You are upset because I showed you that your interpretations were incorrect. If we all could sit together with the Bible in our hands - face to face - we would see very clearly who is lying. I promise you that.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You are upset because I showed you that your interpretations were incorrect. If we all could sit together with the Bible in our hands - face to face - we would see very clearly who is lying. I promise you that.

Really now. You haven’t proven a case. In fact you and Protestants like you twist Scripture like 2 Peter 3:15-16 states.

 

[water]

if you guys keep saying such things, then we are not going anywhere.

We can discuss on this forum, there is no need to see face-to-face…I know you all believe that and that is why we are here.

For Linkowski, does your question get any answer yet?

 

[Mannyfit75]

if you guys keep saying such things, then we are not going anywhere.

We can discuss on this forum, there is no need to see face-to-face…I know you all believe that and that is why we are here.

For Linkowski, does your question get any answer yet?

I’m getting close of adding him to my ignore box because he is starting to annoy me.

 

[cecilia97]

100% unscriptural

Mt 24:12-13 “and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.”

Catholic, born again, and working out my salvation with fear and trembling…

 

[Mannyfit75]

Mt 24:12-13 “and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.”

Catholic, born again, and working out my salvation with fear and trembling…

Note the one who perseveres to the end **will **be saved.

It seems that the erroneous doctrine of Linksowki seem to overlooked why Paul say we must persevere.

Presevere means to persist in anything undertaken; maintain a purpose in spite of difficulty, obstacles, or discouragement; continue steadfastly.

Since the Christian is trying to maintain, he knew he would lose his salvation if he does not persevere. So Links is in error… in his fallible doctrine.

 

[Eden]

I don’t understand what the issue is. If you are intellectually honest, you will admit the fact that all of the Early Church Fathers who spoke on the subject, said that John 3 was referring to baptism. Just as the early Christians were taught, Catholics believe that “born again” refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in us during baptism.

In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. Peter mentioned this transformation from sin to grace when he exhorted people to “be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38).

There is an article in the Catholic Answers library that covers all of this entitled “Are Catholics Born Again?”

catholic.com/library/are_catholics_born_again.asp

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Linkowski: Born from above, born again, born of God…they are all the same. I do not know what more to tell you on this one.

**

And here you are obviously quoting from your bible, right Linkowski?

**

So, would you please post your scriptural sources for these?

Thanks

Pax Christi

**Gee, Linkowski likes to post unscriptural assertions and then he disappears. **

**He must be busy reading Jack Chick and James White on the Whore of Babylon.:coffeeread: **

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

You seem to be assuming “once saved, always saved”. We Catholics do not believe that. As a God created person with free will I can choose to turn my back on God. I can choose to be wicked or spiritually dead…or I can choose life. If, after choosing wickedness for part of my life, I choose to come back to God and His Church I can do so via the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Does that answer your question?

Exactly…every time we repent [with our hearts]…then we are indeed ‘born-again’ , whether protestant or catholic…or am i missing something !!! Any protestant who tells me i am not is going against the bible [rem. the baptist in the jordan]. !

 

[guanophore]

We are told in Catholcism that Catholics are, indeed, born again. When? At Baptism! From the “Are Catholics Born Again??” tract on the Catholic Answers site, we are told…

• When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,” he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being “born again.”

So, this means that all of those in the Catholic Church are born again. I think we would agree there. Now…we need to look into the book of first John for the marks of one who has been born of God…

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Please understand, this scripture and others like it are not insinuating that a person can get to a point that they never sin. This simply takes on the idea of practicing sin regularly…enjoying it…wallowing in it…non-repentant.

OK - moving on…

1John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}

1John 5:4 For **whatsoever is born of God **overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1John 5:18 We know that **whosoever is born of God **sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

1John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

NOW…if all Catholics are born of God/born again at baptism…why do we have many that are spirtually dead and in some cases, wicked?? Please answer this question.

Thank you.

Because they never embraced their birthright! Or, having embraced it, fell away, like the seed scattered on rocky ground, that sprung up, then withered. Heb 6 talks about those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted of the heavenly give (baptized christians) who commit apostacy.

I am curious, why do YOU think there are so many supposedly “born again” people, both Catholic and Protestant, who seem spiritually dead, and wicked?

 

[guanophore]

I started this thread and then had NO time to take part in it later until now - about 24 hours later…anyway…This does not answer the problem and it is clearly this problem…

1. Catholic are born again at baptism
2. Therefore…all Catholics are born again
3. 1 John gives characteristics of the born again (as presented at the beginning of the thread)
4. Many Catholics fall well short of these characteristics
5. Therefore - the rebirth must not happen when Catholics are baptized.

So, why is there this discrepancy?

The only discrepancy is in your theology, Linkowski. If you believe OSAS, then it will not make sense that people can lose the gift of justification by rejecting it through a lifestyle contrary to Jesus’ commandments. For Catholics, it is a seamless garment. A born again (baptized) person has an obligation to build upon that justification by obedience. There is a lot more on this in the “Works Salvation” thread right now. The flaw in your reasoning is that it is up to the individual to “bear fruit that befits repentance”. Granted, t his cannot happen without the Holy Spirit, but a person has an obligation to cooperate. Otherwise, by refusing to cooperate with the HOly Spirit, they crucify the son of God afresh, and sin against the Holy Spirit.

 

[El_camino]

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Please understand, this scripture and others like it are not insinuating that a person can get to a point that they never sin. This simply takes on the idea of practicing sin regularly…enjoying it…wallowing in it…non-repentant.

My question here would be how much sin is little enough to not be enjoying it, wallowing and being non-repentant.

I know many Born-again Christians (both Catholic and protestants) that live a life very in accord to what God expects of a born-again for MANY years, and then they go through stages in their lifes which could last for years, where they forget the person who bought them. Later on, maybe even years later, they repent and return to Him.

Were they not born again the first time then, but the second? Or is it that they were born again the first time, but they were just lapsed. I BELIEVE is the second one.

I agree that a born-again should not behave against the will of the father, nonetheless our free will is not taken away when we are born again, thus some born-again do behave against the will of the father, and some for a long time.

Look at the parable of the prodigal son. HE was the son of the father, that is, he was born of the father (analogous to being a born-again) as he live with him from many years, then HE left the father for many years because he wanted to go chase the carnal world, to the point that the father said that he was “dead”, then he repented and came back to the father. He was NOT reborn again when he came back to the father, because he was already born of the father when he was living with the father at the beginning of the story. Nonetheless, he did leave the father for many years!

The point is, that the bible is clear that born-agains can fall from grace and, although they do not need to be reborn again, they need to repent and come back to the father, to return to his grace.

Many blessings,

E.C.

 

[Randy_Carson]

We are told in Catholcism that Catholics are, indeed, born again. When? At Baptism! From the “Are Catholics Born Again??” tract on the Catholic Answers site, we are told…

• When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,” he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being “born again.”

So, this means that all of those in the Catholic Church are born again. I think we would agree there. As a Protestant, I will not say that every person that walks an aisle, says the sinners prayer, raises their hand, fills out a decision slip - or is even baptized is born again…make sure you remember this remark in responding to my inquiry. Now…we need to look into the book of first John for the marks of one who has been born of God…

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Please understand, this scripture and others like it are not insinuating that a person can get to a point that they never sin. This simply takes on the idea of practicing sin regularly…enjoying it…wallowing in it…non-repentant.

OK - moving on…

1John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}

1John 5:4 For **whatsoever is born of God **overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1John 5:18 We know that **whosoever is born of God **sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

1John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

NOW…if all Catholics are born of God/born again at baptism…why do we have many that are spirtually dead and in some cases, wicked?? Please answer this question.

Remember my point above…As a Protestant, I will not say that every person that walks an aisle, says the sinners prayer, raises their hand, fills out a decision slip is born again

Thank you.

From the Word of God:

Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear.”

Link-

All the seed germinated. But not all bore fruit.

Do all the Billy Graham “decisions for Christ” become mature Christians?

No, and you, to your credit, acknowledge this. Jesus told us in advance about this shortfall in the harvest, however.

Sin in the Catholic Church is not the scandal that it is in a Protestant congregation. We see the Church as a hospital for the sick and not as a private refuge from the world for the saints.

 

[Eireann]

If I am a person who is inquiring about this matter in the sense that it is one of the major hurdles for me in returning to the Catholic Church…no one has addressed this issue to a degree that would come at all close to my satisfaction. In fact, most have ignored this serious problem between Catholic teaching and the staements in 1 John and elsewhere. Anymore help besides this?

Douay Rheims explaination John 3:4 **Whosoever committeth sin committeth also iniquity; and sin is iniquity. 5 And you know that he appeared to take away our sins, and in him there is no sin. **

4 “Iniquity”… transgression of the law.

6 Whosoever abideth in him, sinneth not; and whosoever sinneth, hath not seen him, nor known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you. He that doth justice is just, even as he is just. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose, the Son of God appeared, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God, committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him, and he can not sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil. Whosoever is not just, is not of God, nor he that loveth not his brother.

6 “Sinneth not”… viz., mortally. See chap. 1. 8. …below.

John 1:8
**If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. **

9 “Committeth not sin”… That is, as long as he keepeth in himself this seed of grace, and this divine generation, by which he is born of God. But then he may fall from this happy state, by the abuse of his free will, as appears from Rom. 11. 20-22; Cor. 9. 27; and 10. 12; Phil. 2. 12; Apoc. 3. 11.

And in John 2:1 **My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the just: **

Looks like a continual battle with sin to me.