Catholics Can Be Pro-Choice?

[Dameedna]

The big lie told by the pro-choice group is that if something is a choice, all alternatives are moral.

That is utter nonsense.

It’s a fear-mongering tactic used by those that are afraid everyone’s going to run around doing what they want.

We all do that, and we dont’ survive. It’s not complicated to understand we need rules, regardless of belief.

May pro-choice people think deep and hard about the issue. They may get to a different conclusion to you, but it is certainly not because they think every choice you can possibly make is equally moral or right.

 

[Ender]

I would never want to have an abortion. However, I don’t feel like I have a right to make that decision for all people disregarding their own personal beliefs.

I don’t think anyone wants to have an abortion but an awful lot of people prefer having an abortion to having a baby. Do you mean that you would never have an abortion? Why not? What do you believe occurs as a result of an abortion? If you think about the consequences of an abortion I suspect you will find that there is more involved than merely an expression of personal belief.

The pro-choice side seems to believe that there is something sacrosanct about letting people make their own choices regardless of what those choices are, but that is a theoretical position that no one actually believes. If one truly thinks that individual choice is the ultimate good then that person must oppose all laws as every law is a restriction of personal choice. As I said: I doubt that anyone really believes this, however “pro-choice” they claim to be.

Ender

 

[estesbob]

That is utter nonsense.

It’s a fear-mongering tactic used by those that are afraid everyone’s going to run around doing what they want.

We all do that, and we dont’ survive. It’s not complicated to understand we need rules, regardless of belief.

May pro-choice people think deep and hard about the issue. They may get to a different conclusion to you, but it is certainly not because they think every choice you can possibly make is equally moral or right.

We are talking about abortion here and as far as abortion is concerend there is no such thing as choice. All who call themselves pro-choice suppport the slaughter of 1.2 million children a year. The fact that they say they dont support killing children but merely support the rights of others to kill their children is a distinction without a difference.

 

[angillusion]

I don’t think anyone wants to have an abortion but an awful lot of people prefer having an abortion to having a baby. Do you mean that you would never have an abortion? Why not? What do you believe occurs as a result of an abortion? If you think about the consequences of an abortion I suspect you will find that there is more involved than merely an expression of personal belief.

Ender

To me, it’s complicated. No, I can’t imagine a situation in which I would have an abortion. However, I say that as a person on birth control who takes precautions not to become pregnant, which I also know is against Church Law. This is why I don’t take Communion, and that I pray to God to change my heart if the way I feel about things is wrong. I guess the core of the way I feel is this: I wish we lived in a society where no one felt the need to have an abortion. But we don’t yet. And while many people feel with absolute certainty that an embryo is already completely a child, a lot of others don’t. I think there are a lot of things about society itself that have to be fixed before we can realistically tackle abortion. We need to fix the reasons women feel they can’t have kids and make it so that if a woman has an unplanned pregnancy she has better choices.

 

[estesbob]

To me, it’s complicated. No, I can’t imagine a situation in which I would have an abortion. However, I say that as a person on birth control who takes precautions not to become pregnant, which I also know is against Church Law. This is why I don’t take Communion, and that I pray to God to change my heart if the way I feel about things is wrong. I guess the core of the way I feel is this: I wish we lived in a society where no one felt the need to have an abortion. But we don’t yet. And while many people feel with absolute certainty that an embryo is already completely a child, a lot of others don’t. I think there are a lot of things about society itself that have to be fixed before we can realistically tackle abortion. We need to fix the reasons women feel they can’t have kids and make it so that if a woman has an unplanned pregnancy she has better choices.

To me its not compilcated at all. Taking human life is wrong. I thougt we settles that when Cain killed Abe. You may recall Cain rationalized his killing of Abel. Thoughout history man has determined inumeable times that some form of human life are expendable-whether it be Jews blacks,inidans, the poor, the feeble minded-you name the group and manking has come up with at sometime an excuse for slaughter-as you do above.

 

[Ender]

And while many people feel with absolute certainty that an embryo is already completely a child, a lot of others don’t.

The nature of an embryo/fetus is not determined by our beliefs but by the facts of its existence. There is no scientific debate about this: a new human life begins at the moment of conception. The disagreement is not whether human life exists in the womb but whether or not those lives may be arbitrarily terminated.

I think there are a lot of things about society itself that have to be fixed before we can realistically tackle abortion.

There are a lot of things about society that need to be fixed - agreed - but those issues cannot be resolved where there is no fundamental appreciation for the sanctity of life. How do you convincingly argue that children have a right to a better education when you reject the notion that they even have the right to live?

We need to fix the reasons women feel they can’t have kids and make it so that if a woman has an unplanned pregnancy she has better choices.

Better choices? What would they be? The first choice is between giving birth to the child or killing it. The second choice is between raising your child yourself or putting it up for adoption. I’m not sure I see any alternatives so far. About the only thing left is more assistance in raising the child. Is that it? Are you asking for greater subsidies?

Ender

 

[mapleoak]

And while many people feel with absolute certainty that an embryo is already completely a child, a lot of others don’t.

That is why these individual living human beings need the protection of law. To protect them from those who don’t understand their personhood and believe it is okay to kill them.

I think there are a lot of things about society itself that have to be fixed before we can realistically tackle abortion. We need to fix the reasons women feel they can’t have kids

women feeling they can’t have kids is not a reason to kill them.

and make it so that if a woman has an unplanned pregnancy she has better choices.

An unplanned pregnancy does not justifiy killing an innocent human being.

 

[liotino]

To me, it’s complicated. No, I can’t imagine a situation in which I would have an abortion. However, I say that as a person on birth control who takes precautions not to become pregnant, which I also know is against Church Law. This is why I don’t take Communion, and that I pray to God to change my heart if the way I feel about things is wrong. I guess the core of the way I feel is this: I wish we lived in a society where no one felt the need to have an abortion. But we don’t yet. And while many people feel with absolute certainty that an embryo is already completely a child, a lot of others don’t. I think there are a lot of things about society itself that have to be fixed before we can realistically tackle abortion. We need to fix the reasons women feel they can’t have kids and make it so that if a woman has an unplanned pregnancy she has better choices.

In as much as we need to correct the ills of society, this happening before ending abortion is not an option because of the genocide of innocent voiceless is going on. We cannot allow murder while we figure out the problems of this world. I fear the problems of this world will be intact and is futile to think we can ever have a world of harmony. It is the nature of us humans not to let this happen because we often times chose not to.

 

[Claudius]

The Catholic Church is Pro GOD. Saying that we are Pro Choice makes us to sound like having the Choice is the most important part of the process and it is not. We are all Pro Life because the choice is out of our hands. We did not dicide to come into the world and we are not to decide when we leave this world or when another leaves this world. Some parents are able to kind of decide when a baby will come into this world by choosing when to have sex and when not to but even if they have sex, it is still only God’s choice to give them a baby or not. Once the baby is there, the choice goes away. When a woman is pregnant, she is not in the process of getting a baby. That part if already finished, complete and perfected. She has the baby, it just needs to grow enough to survive outside of her.

Being pro choice in such a way that you accept another person’s choice to kill a human being is wrong and separates you from God. It makes you no longer a Catholic, which is why you may not recieve communion until after you repent, and in fact makes you no longer a Christian in the view of many priest and Bishops putting you in the same boat as Mormons or protestants who refuse to be baptised or deny that Jesus is God.

If you are a Catholic, then be a Catholic. There can be nothing in your life that you hold higher then your Catholic faith. I had a friend who left the Church because we were angry at Disney. She grew up watching Disney movies and loved them and felt that she could not stay in a Church that was attacking something that she loved. This was a really bad reason for her to leave and we can all see that but the reason she left is because Disney was more important in her life then true Catholic faith was. A similar point can be made about Catholics who leave because being actively gay is more important to them, or getting married to a protestant is more important, or fitting into American society is more important. Catholics who are Democrats need to take a look at this and make sure that being a Democrat in good standing is not more important than being a Catholic in good standing. I would say the some for Catholics who are Republicans on other issues. I would be willing to give up my life before I give up on the Catholic Church. I left my family to be in the Church and my country. I would be willing to surrender my American passport to stay Catholic if it ever came down to that. Certainly then, I can be with the Church and support it over an issue that we all know deep down the Church to be 100% correct on. Do not let being pro choice be more important then being a Good Catholic. Do not let wanting to use a condom be more important then being a good Catholic. We are called to be good Catholics not just “good enough” Catholics.

 

[estesbob]

The first choice is between giving birth to the child or killing it. The second choice is between raising your child yourself or putting it up for adoption. I’m not sure I see any alternatives so far. About the only thing left is more assistance in raising the child. Is that it? Are you asking for greater subsidies?

Ender

That is a very good question. Very often in these debates we are told that these children will continue to die until the country adopts their social agenda. In other areas this would be called extortion.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That is utter nonsense.

It’s a fear-mongering tactic used by those that are afraid everyone’s going to run around doing what they want.

We all do that, and we dont’ survive. It’s not complicated to understand we need rules, regardless of belief.

May pro-choice people think deep and hard about the issue. They may get to a different conclusion to you, but it is certainly not because they think every choice you can possibly make is equally moral or right.

Utter nonsense, yourself.

The unborn child is a living human being, just as you and I. To say “it’s a choice” about killing that child is the same as saying it would be “a choice” to kill an adult.

“Pro-choice” people support abortion, passively if not actively.

 

[BlazingBolt]

To me, it’s complicated. No, I can’t imagine a situation in which I would have an abortion. However, I say that as a person on birth control who takes precautions not to become pregnant, which I also know is against Church Law. This is why I don’t take Communion, and that I pray to God to change my heart if the way I feel about things is wrong. I guess the core of the way I feel is this: I wish we lived in a society where no one felt the need to have an abortion. But we don’t yet. And while many people feel with absolute certainty that an embryo is already completely a child, a lot of others don’t. I think there are a lot of things about society itself that have to be fixed before we can realistically tackle abortion. We need to fix the reasons women feel they can’t have kids and make it so that if a woman has an unplanned pregnancy she has better choices.

As a person taking birth control you should be able to very easily imagine a situation where abortion becomes a desired option. Failed contraception. You are treating the thought of being with child as a terrible disease already, it is only a small step to convincing yourself of a justification for terminating any human life that might be conceived in spite of your physical or chemical hostility towards life. The majority of abortions are performed because of failed contraception. It is no coincidence that the massive rise of contraceptive casual sex in the 60’s was followed by an increase in the demand for abortion where the Supreme Court eventually caved and changed law in 1973. One caused the other.

I applaud you for not taking communion and praying about this issue.

I don’t see any relevancy to the issue regarding societies other problems. How can a woman with an unplanned pregnancy be given better choices? Addition by reduction is the only way I see, take away her legal option to commit the crime of intentionally ending the human life inside her.

Whether or not an embryo is completely a child is irrelevant, it is a human life. Intentionally ending a human life is killing. Is their any reason to argue it is OK to kill because a human life is inconvenient? Does it make sense to argue that if someones life is possibly in danger that we kill another human life to lessen that danger? Does it make any sense to say that is someone is raped that killing a human life is then OK? Does it make any sense to say that intentionally killing an innocent human life is acceptable? To some it does, but what is their motivation for doing so?

If you have not, find out what you can about JPII’s Theology of the Body to gain a more profound understand of these issues. The basic reality is that sex is human mating. When you use contraception, what is sex? It is not mating anymore, it is fake mating. It is taking a wonderful gift from God and breaking it down in to what we want it to be. Having a mate is not just about producing children. There is a wonderful type of love involved and this love is strengthened by the sexual bond and creates the best environment for children. When you intentionally thwart the mating aspect of what sex is you are breaking God’s gift and things that are broken do not work as intended. You still are intending to use the sex to strengthen the bond of love, but you have broken it down because you only want the pleasure part of it and you are not only rejecting the fertile part. You are not completely accepting your partner for who they are, you are rejecting their fertility. This may sound harsh, but if you think and pray hard on it you may see the way in which it is true, but your actual actions during the contraceptive act are the same as those between a prostitute and a customer the only difference being how you “feel”. If you think “how you feel” changes it completely, than do you think it is OK for a woman to stay with a man who beats her if they genuinely have feelings for each other? Feelings only matter when they drive actions. Also do you not realize that NFP is just as effective as any artificial contraception when used to delay pregnancy? If you simply do not want to get pregnant right now what is the reason not to switch?

 

[BlazingBolt]

This is why I don’t take Communion, and that I pray to God to change my heart if the way I feel about things is wrong.

The key is to identify the things that are preventing God from changing your heart on this issue. If you can identify and honestly examine them you might see that these issues involve pride, worldly attachments, or selfish desires. You can then pray for the grace to help overcome these issues. As Catholics, we know the Magisterial teachings of the Church are divinely guaranteed to be free from error and if we disagree with the Church we need to take a hard look to examine what in ourselves is causing us to disagree with the reasoning of the Church and pray for the grace to humbly accept the teaching until we understand it.

 

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

I doubt there is anyone who accepts the papal teaching of Humanae Vitae who would justify abortion under any circumstance. To accept artificial contraception is to say that God has no (name removed by moderator)ut into whether a pregnancy occurs or not. Therefore it is widely accepted that no one who accidentally becomes pregnant should necessarily have to bear the child. It is probably true to say that all those who justify abortion under any circumstance, also believe that the RCC is wrong in its teachings about artificial contraception. I am NOT saying that all those who practice artificial contraception are pro choice - I know that is not true, but the two issues are intimately bound up and as Catholics we should understand that a liberal abortion law is a consequence of artificial birth control. It is no coincidence that legalised abortion followed the widespread acceptance of the contraceptive pill which also led to a change in the sexual mores in western society where sexual pleasure is an end in itself and must be separated from reproduction. Pope Paul VI prophecied in 1968 that would happen as a consequence and the present day immorality is prophecy fulfilled. A further proof of the truth that God’s teachings are those of the Catholic Church.

 

[liotino]

Utter nonsense, yourself.

The unborn child is a living human being, just as you and I. To say “it’s a choice” about killing that child is the same as saying it would be “a choice” to kill an adult.

“Pro-choice” people support abortion, passively if not actively.

My Brother.
Well said…killing of unborn is viewed by way too many as not just that a killing. What bothers me too no end is that there is sympathy/excuses that people use to justify the killing. Why does the killing of the unborn have any justification in society. We are fools to think we will not be judge for what we did not do, allowed. or passively accepted. This “I would never have an abortion” but I will stand aside to let someone else make the decision “choice” is a crock to me. It is an oxymoron in words/action. I cannot force anyone to do what is right but it being lawful open a flood gate of genocide. The profess to be a Christian and say choice to kill is ok needs to revisit the terminology “Christian” and read the bible.

 

[cbbrown]

Utter nonsense, yourself.

The unborn child is a living human being, just as you and I. To say “it’s a choice” about killing that child is the same as saying it would be “a choice” to kill an adult.

“Pro-choice” people support abortion, passively if not actively.

Wow, I am amazed at this thread This is an issue about which I feel very strongly, so I decided to add my 2 cents worth.

First off, I don’t believe in good or bad Catholics, or even good/bad people (One is good…) Rather I believe in those who try, and those who do not. With regards to “Catholics” who believe abortion is a choice that should not be upheld by law, they are Catholics who do not try, if they in fact can be called Catholics. Not sure if someone who chooses to excommunicate himself is still technically a Catholic.
Anyway, I think the issue should be made clear.
The question of whether or not abortion should be made illegal, is EXACTLY the same as whether or not killing in general should be made illegal. Maybe it sounds silly since the latter is already the case, but that just shows how our mentality is skewed.
As I say to anyone who will listen: Take a child of whatever age (in our society, younger garners more sympathy) sit him down and then tell us when it is OK to kill that baby. When the mothers life is endangered? When his Father is a sinner (rapist?) When it is convenient fo the life of one or both parents? When is it OK to kill that child?
As a society, our answer is that it is OK in all the above cases, and then some. This is NOT acceptable.
With regard to the person who said they don’t believe that the answer is to illegalize it, I say the same thing. Therefore we should not make murder illegal, we should not make rape illegal, we should merely try to encourage people to make the right choices? Warm and fuzzy happy horse pucky. Sorry for the vernacular.
Again, the argument for illegalizing abortion is exactly the same as it would be for illegalizing rape and murder, were those legal, except that abortion is worse than both. It is the murder of an innocent, and the denial of the potential of an infinitely precious and UNREPEATABLE individual. One person can make incomprehensible changes to society, and we kill millions of them each year, before they have even had a chance to live the life God gave them. And we justify it as death being a part of life. Wow.

Makes me shake my head at the way we can justify anything to ourselves, which also makes me thankful that God left us the Church as a moral guide. See how confused we are even with this safeguard of the Truth?

For us Catholics, the conscience is not the source of Truth, Jesus is the Truth, and Jesus and His Church are ONE. Therefore, for Catholiocs who try, the Church says it, and we believe it. Or saying the exact same thing another way: Jesus says it, we believe it.

Thanks Vern, your posts here are encouraging to me, and I’m sure to others.

Peace to all.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Wow, I am amazed at this thread This is an issue about which I feel very strongly, so I decided to add my 2 cents worth.

First off, I don’t believe in good or bad Catholics, or even good/bad people (One is good…) Rather I believe in those who try, and those who do not. With regards to “Catholics” who believe abortion is a choice that should not be upheld by law, they are Catholics who do not try, if they in fact can be called Catholics. Not sure if someone who chooses to excommunicate himself is still technically a Catholic.
Anyway, I think the issue should be made clear.
The question of whether or not abortion should be made illegal, is EXACTLY the same as whether or not killing in general should be made illegal. Maybe it sounds silly since the latter is already the case, but that just shows how our mentality is skewed.
As I say to anyone who will listen: Take a child of whatever age (in our society, younger garners more sympathy) sit him down and then tell us when it is OK to kill that baby. When the mothers life is endangered? When his Father is a sinner (rapist?) When it is convenient fo the life of one or both parents? When is it OK to kill that child?
As a society, our answer is that it is OK in all the above cases, and then some. This is NOT acceptable.
With regard to the person who said they don’t believe that the answer is to illegalize it, I say the same thing. Therefore we should not make murder illegal, we should not make rape illegal, we should merely try to encourage people to make the right choices? Warm and fuzzy happy horse pucky. Sorry for the vernacular.
Again, the argument for illegalizing abortion is exactly the same as it would be for illegalizing rape and murder, were those legal, except that abortion is worse than both. It is the murder of an innocent, and the denial of the potential of an infinitely precious and UNREPEATABLE individual. One person can make incomprehensible changes to society, and we kill millions of them each year, before they have even had a chance to live the life God gave them. And we justify it as death being a part of life. Wow.

Makes me shake my head at the way we can justify anything to ourselves, which also makes me thankful that God left us the Church as a moral guide. See how confused we are even with this safeguard of the Truth?

For us Catholics, the conscience is not the source of Truth, Jesus is the Truth, and Jesus and His Church are ONE. Therefore, for Catholiocs who try, the Church says it, and we believe it. Or saying the exact same thing another way: Jesus says it, we believe it.

Thanks Vern, your posts here are encouraging to me, and I’m sure to others.

Peace to all.

And thank you for your response.

One who feels abortion should be “a choice” and should not be illegal, who says “we can’t force our beliefs on others” believes, willy-nilly, that the unborn child is not human. It’s that simple.

 

[Ridgerunner]

And thank you for your response.

One who feels abortion should be “a choice” and should not be illegal, who says “we can’t force our beliefs on others” believes, willy-nilly, that the unborn child is not human. It’s that simple.

With all due respect, Vern, I’m not sure that’s entirely true. Those who favor euthanasia or “assisted suicide” know full well that the victim is human. I expect a fair number of pro-abortionists know as well. Some people don’t care.

 

[vern_humphrey]

With all due respect, Vern, I’m not sure that’s entirely true. Those who favor euthanasia or “assisted suicide” know full well that the victim is human. I expect a fair number of pro-abortionists know as well. Some people don’t care.

You could be right, but it’s a horrible thing to contemplate, people cynically turning away from the most helpless and allowing them to be killed en masse at whim.

That would make them worse than the Germans who saw the trainloads of starving, brutalized people rolling thorugh their towns day after day, and kept pretending to themselves they didn’t know what was happening to the Jews.

 

[Ridgerunner]

You could be right, but it’s a horrible thing to contemplate, people cynically turning away from the most helpless and allowing them to be killed en masse at whim.

That would make them worse than the Germans who saw the trainloads of starving, brutalized people rolling thorugh their towns day after day, and kept pretending to themselves they didn’t know what was happening to the Jews.

I hate to be repititious, but probably the best discourse I have ever read on what toleration of disregard for human life does to a society, was Solzhenitsyn’s “Gulag Archipelago”. I am not learned in much of anything, but as I have often said to others, most of the knowledge I do have of psychology is from literature.

It’s a long read (three big volumes) and one sometimes wonders if what he’s saying comes to a point somewhere. But he always does, and it’s staggering when things suddenly “fall together”. If you have not read it, I think you will always be glad of it if you do. It’s as perfect a study of totalitarianism, the socialist impulse, elitism, and the creeping spiritual fossilization that accompanies state sanctioning of personal evil. Some credit (I think rightly) his work for the ultimate downfall of the Soviet Union. I am inclined to include him with Pope JPII, Lech Walesa, Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher as those who brought it to an end.

But you know, just because the Soviet system ended, all of its progeny all over the world did not go away. Not even in the U.S. Its influence, and the influence of those who influenced it, stretches far into the future, and in more than one way. We still have all of the socialist fellow travelers, particularly in Europe. We still have a viciously intolerant left; one that one suspects would haul a good number of us off to Gulags if it could manage it. Some of the libs in here are entirely correct in asserting that there are governmental people in the U.S. who would be jailed in Europe if some of those countries caught them. Yet, the tolerance for Castro, Chavez and the Chinese Communists who make the family pay for the execution bullet of their loved one, is pervasive, because they’re “progressive”. Political tolerance of those who disagree is not one of the virtues of the secular progressive faction. We have that utilitarian disregard for the sanctity of the human person in which even many Catholics question whether an innocent life should be ended in order to avoid a woman’s having to carry a child for nine months. It’s a “personal matter”, so many say. Well, sure it is. It’s also a matter of the life of another person, but somehow our society has come to accept that the latter is less important than the former. It truly does put me to mind of the mental process by which most Soviet citizens came to accept the arrests and executions they knew were happening. The greater the acceptance of something is, the greater it becomes, and the greater becomes the tolerance of worse and worse things. “Well, they probably did something” people told themselves, knowing full well the victim probably didn’t.

So pervasive did it become in Solzhenitsyn’s world that he found himself shocked to see the contrast between his fellow Soviet citizens and “foreign” people, e.g., Lithuanians and Poles that were dragged into the Gulags from societies that had not become so corrupted.

And despite it all, those who succumbed to “creeping corruption” as Solzhenitsyn sometimes called it, thought of themselves as being quite good people.