Catholics Can Be Pro-Choice?

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It is certainly easy to condemn the killing of the innocent. What is difficult is understanding how people can justify it.
That seems like the easy part to me. Hypocrisy and rationalization seems to be second nature to our species. Consider the following:
47 year old white male detainee died while in US custody. Cause of death: Blunt Force Injuries and Asphyxia; Manner of Death: Homicide. Autopsy revealed deep bruising of the chest wall, numerous displaced rib fractures, bruising on the lungs, hemorrhage into the mesentery of the small and large intestine. Examination of the neck structures revealed hemorrhage into the strap muscles and fractures of the thyroid cartilage and hyoid bone. History of asphyxia, secondary to occlusion of the oral airway. Pleural and pulmonary adhesions. Hypertensive cardiovascular disease. According to report provided by the US army CID, the detainee was shackled to the top of a doorframe with a gag in his mouth at the time he lost consciousness and became pulseless. The severe blunt force injuries, the hanging position, and the obstruction of the oral cavity with a gag contributed to this individual’s death. DOD 00329 refers to this case as “gagged in standing restraint” DOD 003329 refers to this case as “1 blunt force trama and choking; gagged in standing restraint.” DOD 003324 refers to this case with a note indicating “Q[uestioned] by OGA [Other Governmental Agency - non-military, often refers to CIA], gagged in standing restraint.”
Cause of death: Blunt force injuries and asphyxia (torture/crucifixion)
Manner of death: Homicide (ME04-14; AFIP 2909185)
I have argued that murder and torture are noted as non negotiable moral principles for Catholics, connected by papal decree to abortion (Evangalium Vitae, Christifideles Laici, etc.)

You have argued that this sort of thing is justified as self defense.

My position would not change even if the deceased was a very bad person (the Church says “any stage” and “any condition”). Would your position change if, in hindsight, we realized that the detention itself was a case of mistaken identity?

Or, consider Vern’s statement here:
Remember, Everet Koop, the former Surgeon General, said in his entire medical career, he never encountered a case where an abortion was necessary to save the mother’s life, and didn’t know of any specific cases encountered by any other doctor.
Is not Vern the same poster who once vehemently insisted that preventive abortions (an abortion before a mother experiences any trauma or detectable health risk) in the case of ectopic pregnancies are “absolutely” just?

I have tremendous sympathy for mothers in these cases, just as I have for a raped and impregnated 9 year old (the case in Central America comes to mind). But, if we truly accept the infinite value of life the Church’s position is understandable and consistant. Excommunicating the parents and doctor after the 9 year old’s abortion was in keeping with Church Dogma and Canon Law (the sentence was lifted in response to the pleas of tens of thousands of fellow Catholics), and the Tribunal of the Holy Office was quite clear on the question of removing ectopic fetuses without injury in 1902 (it was deemed not licit).

But, in both cases we have Catholics not only deviating from written Church doctrine, but feeling extremely rightous and justified in doing so. Catholics are supposed to follow the absolute certainty of their conscience (see the Catachism), but we are also supposed to acknowledge that even our absolute conscience can be in error.
 
Is not Vern the same poster who once vehemently insisted that preventive abortions (an abortion before a mother experiences any trauma or detectable health risk) in the case of ectopic pregnancies are “absolutely” just?
As usual, you miscast the issue. The question was about the removal of a child developing within the fallopian tube on the assumption that the mother and child would both die if nothing were done.

Although I have since studied the syndrome and learned the conventional wisdom is wrong, my position was that the moral approach – given both would die if nothing were done – was to use the method least likely to cause additional risk or injury to the mother.

But you knew that, didn’t you?😉
 
I have tremendous sympathy for mothers in these cases, just as I have for a raped and impregnated 9 year old (the case in Central America comes to mind). But, if we truly accept the infinite value of life the Church’s position is understandable and consistant. Excommunicating the parents and doctor after the 9 year old’s abortion was in keeping with Church Dogma and Canon Law (the sentence was lifted in response to the pleas of tens of thousands of fellow Catholics), and the Tribunal of the Holy Office was quite clear on the question of removing ectopic fetuses without injury in 1902 (it was deemed not licit).

As a woman, I am with the “tens of thousands”. (and with Nouwen)
 
As usual, you miscast the issue. The question was about the removal of a child developing within the fallopian tube on the assumption that the mother and child would both die if nothing were done.
No, the question was about ectopic pregnancies. You made many medical assumptions, which I and others assured you were false. You called us dishonest and questioned our intelligence. You then went on to assert statistics for which there is no basis in reality.
Although I have since studied the syndrome and learned the conventional wisdom is wrong, my position was that the moral approach – given both would die if nothing were done – was to use the method least likely to cause additional risk or injury to the mother.
You have again made my point. Consider the entry on Abortion from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The teachings of the Catholic Church admit of no doubt on the subject. Such moral questions, when they are submitted, are decided by the Tribunal of the Holy Office. Now this authority decreed, 28 May, 1884, and again, 18 August, 1889, that “it cannot be safely taught in Catholic schools that it is lawful to perform . . . any surgical operation which is directly destructive of the life of the fetus or the mother.” Abortion was condemned by name, 24 July, 1895, in answer to the question whether when the mother is in immediate danger of death and there is no other means of saving her life, a physician can with a safe conscience cause abortion not by destroying the child in the womb (which was explicitly condemned in the former decree), but by giving it a chance to be born alive, though not being yet viable, it would soon expire. The answer was that he cannot. After these and other similar decisions had been given, some moralists thought they saw reasons to doubt whether an exception might not be allowed in the case of ectopic gestations. Therefore the question was submitted: “Is it ever allowed to extract from the body of the mother ectopic embryos still immature, before the sixth month after conception is completed?” The answer given, 20 March, 1902, was: “No; according to the decree of 4 May, 1898; according to which, as far as possible, earnest and opportune provision is to be made to safeguard the life of the child and of the mother. As to the time, let the questioner remember that no acceleration of birth is licit unless it be done at a time, and in ways in which, according to the usual course of things, the life of the mother and the child be provided for”. Ethics, then, and the Church agree in teaching that no action is lawful which directly destroys fetal life. It is also clear that extracting the living fetus before it is viable, is destroying its life as directly as it would be killing a grown man directly to plunge him into a medium in which he cannot live, and hold him there till he expires.
The Church’s position is that two deaths of natural causes, while tragic, is better than one murder. It is an emotionally very difficult teaching, so it is no surprise that you reject it in some cases. But that was my point. We each find it easy to justify our own compromises on Catholic teaching, so we should be careful in passing judgement on people who simply make different compromises than ourselves.

It reminds me of an old George Carlin bit where he points out that everyone who drives faster than you on the freeway is “reckless” and everyone who drives slower than you is an “idiot”.

It is human nature. You were absolutely certain when the subject was first discussed, even though your assumptions generally turned out to be false.
 
No, the question was about ectopic pregnancies.
A child developing in the fallopian tube is an example of an ectopic pregnancy.
You made many medical assumptions, which I and others assured you were false. You called us dishonest and questioned our intelligence. You then went on to assert statistics for which there is no basis in reality.
Although after study I realized the situation under discussion was different from my original impressions, I did not call you names. I did question your claimed expertise on the basis of your medical career.😃
 
I have tremendous sympathy for mothers in these cases, just as I have for a raped and impregnated 9 year old (the case in Central America comes to mind). But, if we truly accept the infinite value of life the Church’s position is understandable and consistant. Excommunicating the parents and doctor after the 9 year old’s abortion was in keeping with Church Dogma and Canon Law (the sentence was lifted in response to the pleas of tens of thousands of fellow Catholics), and the Tribunal of the Holy Office was quite clear on the question of removing ectopic fetuses without injury in 1902 (it was deemed not licit).
I maintain as I always have that abortion in all circumstances is gravely immoral, including the treatment of ectopic pregnancy. One cannot justify, using any number of mental contortions, saying that removing an misplaced embryo, whether by itself or in conjuction with a portion of the fallopian tube, is not direct abortion solely on the merits of the former or the latter condition. It is the difference between killing someone by shooting him or dropping a bomb on his house with the person inside. They are both direct actions intended to eliminate the victim.
 
Hypocrisy and rationalization seems to be second nature to our species.
How true, how true. Aren’t you glad we’re not like that?
I have argued that murder and torture are noted as non negotiable moral principles for Catholics, connected by papal decree to abortion (Evangalium Vitae, Christifideles Laici, etc.)
You have argued that this sort of thing is justified as self defense.
Not exactly. What I have done is rebut what seem to me to be flawed arguments. Pointing out the faults in the justification of your position is not the same as arguing that your position is wrong. I am working through the issue and frankly I didn’t expect it to be so difficult. I started with the assumption that torture was always wrong but have since discovered that proving it is not so easy. You have presented a number of Church documents that reference the topic but they are (surprisingly) inconclusive. Perhaps more insults would help clarify things for me.
Would your position change if, in hindsight, we realized that the detention itself was a case of mistaken identity?
I’m not quite sure what my position is yet. I certainly have a hard time seeing any justification for what was (apparently) done to that individual

Ender
 
A child developing in the fallopian tube is an example of an ectopic pregnancy.

Although after study I realized the situation under discussion was different from my original impressions, I did not call you names. I did question your claimed expertise on the basis of your medical career.😃
You called me a “pro abortionist” which, in addition to being false, was incoherent. It was you who was claiming the termination of fetal life was inherently just.

I have never been deceitful in the constaints of my experience/knowledge. I served two tours as a combat medic in Vietnam, so I do have extensive experience with the actual treatment of shock and intercine bleeding (the most probable cause of death in an ectopic pregnancy). And I’ve spent a good portion of my subsequent professional career developing/inventing new diagnostic equipment for medical treatment.

But, the question was never my experience, because I refer to medical research and Church documents. The issue was your absolute certainty despite what you now profess to have been ignorance of the real situation.

In other words, it is/was the relativism that remains the point. As your revised position, and its apparent departure from Church doctrine, demonstrates.
 
You called me a “pro abortionist” which, in addition to being false, was incoherent. It was you who was claiming the termination of fetal life was inherently just.
Quote please where I called you a “pro abortionist?”
I have never been deceitful in the constaints of my experience/knowledge. I served two tours as a combat medic in Vietnam, so I do have extensive experience with the actual treatment of shock and intercine bleeding (the most probable cause of death in an ectopic pregnancy). And I’ve spent a good portion of my subsequent professional career developing/inventing new diagnostic equipment for medical treatment.
I was wounded twice in Viet Nam. Neither time was it an ectopic pregnancy.😉
But, the question was never my experience, because I refer to medical research and Church documents. The issue was your absolute certainty despite what you now profess to have been ignorance of the real situation.
Passing over your “absolute certainty” in matters where you are less than expert, my position on abortion is unchanged – only my understanding of the circumstances of ectopic pregnancy are changed.

But you knew that, didn’t you?😉
In other words, it is/was the relativism that remains the point. As your revised position, and its apparent departure from Church doctrine, demonstrates.
Your relativism, not mine.
 
As a woman, I am with the “tens of thousands”. (and with Nouwen)
I maintain as I always have that abortion in all circumstances is gravely immoral, including the treatment of ectopic pregnancy. One cannot justify, using any number of mental contortions, saying that removing an misplaced embryo, whether by itself or in conjuction with a portion of the fallopian tube, is not direct abortion solely on the merits of the former or the latter condition. It is the difference between killing someone by shooting him or dropping a bomb on his house with the person inside. They are both direct actions intended to eliminate the victim.
FWIW, I agree with both these positions. But I see no contradiction. Intellectually, I believe that the Church is correct. We are each a unique creation by God who can, and does, love us each infinitely. We are instructed to love all as He loves us. The Church’s position, that each life is of infinite value, regardless of the distinctions we perceive ourselves (“any stage”, “any condition”) is the most theologically and morally consistant one.

However, we are in no way perfect. Even our Christian Concience must be developed in an ongoing relationship with God. We are supposed to follow the absolute certainty of our conscience. In this case, the certainty of my conscience is with Amolibri. I was overwhelmed with pity and compassion for the family and the child, and cannot find any purpose in my heart for seperating any of them from the Body of the Faithful.

But, we are also supposed to acknowledge that our conscience, even when certain, can be wrong. And, when I try to step back and be honest with myself I have to acknowledge that I could be wrong here. My faith says I should love not just the child, but the fetus inside her, and even the rapist who assaulted her, as I love myself. This, I simply cannot do, at least not now. But that does not mean that the Sacred Heart of Jesus is not the goal I should be aspiring to.

And that is my primary point here. There are no true ‘us’ and ‘them’ camps on abortion in the US. It is a sliding scale. Polling data over the last 30 years shows that somewhere between 1/5 and 1/20 people in the US desire abortion to be illegal in all cases. When you question that group further, the number continues to drop (note Vern and his past statements on ectopic related abortions). Only 1 or 2 people out of every hundred appear to fully accept Catholic teaching on right to life and abortion.

In Mass, we get it right, “Lord, I am not worthy…” None of us can truly follow in Christ’s footsteps, but we are oblidged to commit our lives to trying. The bar is set impossibly high, which is a good thing. There is always room for growth in faith, for greater committment to a life of service, etc.

But the politics of abortion, lowering the bar to an arbitrary point and then proclaiming everyone on one side to be ‘rightous’ and everyone on the other to be ‘morally faulty’, does not serve the same purpose. In fact, there is little to suggest that it accomplishes anything other than the pursuit of earthly power. Let’s face it, national aboriton rates dropped more sharply under Clinton than at any other time since Roe. And Oregon, labelled the most abortion friendly of states, is a national leader in terms of lowering its abortion rate.

That is not to say that we should not resist this great evil, just that we should not collapse and compromise our faith to the point of incoherence and then blind ourselves to what we are doing. Look at the polls, most of the country has the wrong beliefs, we must bring their hearts and minds to the light. Look at the connection to poverty, abortions are overwhelmingly procurred by women living at or near the poverty level. Roughly half of them are mothers already. This is a population that Jesus instructed us to serve and to spiritually emulate. Last, look at our own rates. 27% of the women who procure abortions describe themselves as Catholic. We are disproportionately represented!

I think the Church has stated it best:
In this context “limiting the harm”], it must be noted also that a well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law which contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals. The Christian faith is an integral unity, and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine. A political commitment to a single isolated aspect of the Church’s social doctrine does not exhaust one’s responsibility towards the common good. Nor can a Catholic think of delegating his Christian responsibility to others; rather, the Gospel of Jesus Christ gives him this task, so that the truth about man and the world might be proclaimed and put into action.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

Seperating a grave moral disorder like abortion from our social teachings, which are a rockbed of our faith (Gospel is from the Greek for “Good News” as in, ‘bringing the Good News to the poor’) is, as the Church notes, incoherent. The Faith is a seemless whole. Abortion is clearly connected other moral failures (like the Family) and is inarguably strongly linked in some fashion to poverty. Small wonder that efforts to address issues in isolation (fight same sex unions, but ignore the impact of modern laws on divorce, attack abortion but ignore poverty, and a culture of promiscuity and death, etc.) have been underwhelming in terms of measurable results.
 
Seperating a grave moral disorder like abortion from our social teachings, which are a rockbed of our faith (Gospel is from the Greek for “Good News” as in, ‘bringing the Good News to the poor’) is, as the Church notes, incoherent. The Faith is a seemless whole. Abortion is clearly connected other moral failures (like the Family) and is inarguably strongly linked in some fashion to poverty. Small wonder that efforts to address issues in isolation (fight same sex unions, but ignore the impact of modern laws on divorce, attack abortion but ignore poverty, and a culture of promiscuity and death, etc.) have been underwhelming in terms of measurable results.
Actually, that’s wrong – we have not “attacked abortion but ignored poverty.” Quite the contrary, the government has promoted abortion through funding various abortion-oriented organizations, and taken steps that, whatever their intent, has halted the decline in poverty and created the multi-generational poverty cycle.

Similarly, the multi-pronged approach which considers all the interrelated factors is characteristic of people actually working personally to deal with the problems of the country, not those who push government programs as the solution to all our problems.
 
I was wounded twice in Viet Nam. Neither time was it an ectopic pregnancy.😉
But, according to your prior posts, you suffered skeletal injuries, not intercine bleeding or any of the related organ problems that can entail.

FWIW, I was wounded multiple times in combat. One incident did involve relatively significant internal bleeding (most the damage was to my right shoulder and neck, but multiple bone fragments (not my own) and metal fragments did penetrate my chest). So that experience is at least remotely connected to the subject. After all, I am here, writing, which makes me, if nothing else, living proof that shock and internal bleeding are not “near 100% fatal” (as you then insisted) in the modern age of plasma and antibiotics.

I actually had not considered such a superficial argument. My point had only been that I had been trained to treat such injuries and had direct experience in the relative effectiveness of treatment (I actually administered the ‘first aid’ in the incident above to myself). But if you would like to digress to the inane, I’d suggest providing more details of your Vietnam injuries so we can decipher why you emerged from them with such an incorrect understanding of the treatment ofshock and hemorage.
Your relativism, not mine.
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, there have only been two views presented. Yours, which you asserted was a ‘correct’ and ‘non distorted’ reflection, and the Church’s, quoted from the Catholic Encyclopedia. It is impossible for me to be a causal factor in the discrepency between them.
Similarly, the multi-pronged approach which considers all the interrelated factors is characteristic of people actually working personally to deal with the problems of the country, not those who push government programs as the solution to all our problems.
Again, your ‘correct’ leads nicely to my point. You have asserted that abortion leaves you no choice in voting. But that leaves you in the position of politically supporting the largest explosion in discretionary spending in the 20th century. In other words, you profess that government is not a solution, but then support an enormous expansion of government.

Similiarly, you are in the position of supporting greatly expanded government powers, at the cost of states’ rights and individual freedoms. So, regardless of the ideology you state, when it comes to personal action you support a much larger, much more powerful government.

And this appears to be just one of the compromises you make. Whatever their “intent”, you support political policies which have overseen a prolonged period of stagnant wages, anemic job growth, shrinking economic mobility, and record setting debt. You may vote about ‘abortion’, but you are also voting for the other actions of those you support. Changes to Medicare which drive inflation, changes to bankruptcy laws that make it much harder to escape medical debt and much easier to walk away from a mortgage, and public policies which promote the outsourcing of US jobs.

In today’s empty political discourse we pretend that this is largely opinion. But these are the things we can measure. We have inflation, we have negative savings rates, we have a contracting job market, and we have record corporate profits. President Bush once referred to CEOs and the wealthy as his “base”. There is little doubt that they have been well served by this administration. Look at the last acts of the GOP congress before it lost control.

The question is, having collapsed the faith to a single issue, are social conservatives being as well served? The measurable evidence says no. The decline in abortions has slowed (even reversed direction in some states), gay rights have been expanded, and poverty is expanding. All the while we find ourselves at odds with Rome on issues like war, torture, and our humanitarian obligations to Christians we are helping to persecute.

I’ve always found it fascinating to hear folks boast about their ‘conservative’ voting when the VP’s old employer, in which he still has a financial interest, gets $2.4B to, among other things, serve rancid food and tainted water to US troops in a time of war. Are greed and corruption the ‘good ol’ fashioned values’ people want to return to? The same man publicly supports his daughter’s decision to have a child inside a gay union, publicly asserts things which are demonstrably false, declares himself a unique, uncontrolled, branch of the government, runs his office so poorly that misshandling of classified materials leads to two criminal convictions, demonstrates the sort of judgement that includes drinking alchohol before shooting someone in the face (having grown up in farm country, I still can’t fathom the sort of incompetence it must take to screw up ‘hunting’ domesticated birds), and declares that publicly berating fellow elected officials with foul obsceneties makes him “feel better”.

I volunteered for a war I had grave doubts about. He dodged service while claiming to support the war. Why, exactly, am I supposed to conclude that these people share any of my core values?
 
And that is my primary point here. There are no true ‘us’ and ‘them’ camps on abortion in the US. It is a sliding scale. … Only 1 or 2 people out of every hundred appear to fully accept Catholic teaching on right to life and abortion.
There is enough truth in this statement to be plausible … just not enough to be correct. There are two main camps: those who are part of the problem and those who are part of the solution. There are an enormous number of people - vastly more than one or two percent - who strongly oppose abortion and it is demeaning to dismiss them because they may not be as pure as you on the subject. This is a wonderful example of making the perfect the enemy of the good.
Seperating a grave moral disorder like abortion from our social teachings, which are a rockbed of our faith … is, as the Church notes, incoherent.
Perhaps, but it is not as incoherent as lumping together all the problems of mankind without worrying about the difference in moral significance.
Small wonder that efforts to address issues in isolation (fight same sex unions, but ignore the impact of modern laws on divorce, attack abortion but ignore poverty, and a culture of promiscuity and death, etc.) have been underwhelming in terms of measurable results.
I agree with your conclusion but disagree that it is because the issues have been attacked individually but rather because they have not been. This is the whole problem with the “seamless garment” and “the faith is a seamless whole” arguments. Legal abortion could be ended if Catholics focused on this issue to the - temporary - exclusion of the others.

Ender
 
the point i was trying to make was killing is a subjective word. people have no problems killing lower forms or life or in war but somehow its different if a mother wants to end her pregnancy because she was either raped or her or her child would die. as for me knowing nothing about biology next time your wife or someone you know is pregnant try taking the baby out of the womb before its 4 or 5 months old and see what happends.
Actually the word killing is pretty clearly defined.

Kill: to deprive of life : cause the death of. Merriam-Webster online dictionary.

Not really subjective at all.
 
What are these “extreme cases?” Former Surgeon General, Everett Koop (remember him?) said that in a lifetime of practice, he never saw a case where abortion was necessary to save the mother’s life.
An aside here, but I had once heard that the hippocratic oath is no longer required to be made by graduates from med school at many universities now. Always wondered why. After reading some posts here, I looked the oath up online. One line of the oath struck me:

“Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion”

Just thought that was very telling…
 
But, according to your prior posts, you suffered skeletal injuries, not intercine bleeding or any of the related organ problems that can entail.

FWIW, I was wounded multiple times in combat. One incident did involve relatively significant internal bleeding (most the damage was to my right shoulder and neck, but multiple bone fragments (not my own) and metal fragments did penetrate my chest). So that experience is at least remotely connected to the subject. After all, I am here, writing, which makes me, if nothing else, living proof that shock and internal bleeding are not “near 100% fatal” (as you then insisted) in the modern age of plasma and antibiotics.

I actually had not considered such a superficial argument. My point had only been that I had been trained to treat such injuries and had direct experience in the relative effectiveness of treatment (I actually administered the ‘first aid’ in the incident above to myself). But if you would like to digress to the inane, I’d suggest providing more details of your Vietnam injuries so we can decipher why you emerged from them with such an incorrect understanding of the treatment ofshock and hemorage.

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, there have only been two views presented. Yours, which you asserted was a ‘correct’ and ‘non distorted’ reflection, and the Church’s, quoted from the Catholic Encyclopedia. It is impossible for me to be a causal factor in the discrepency between them.

Again, your ‘correct’ leads nicely to my point. You have asserted that abortion leaves you no choice in voting. But that leaves you in the position of politically supporting the largest explosion in discretionary spending in the 20th century. In other words, you profess that government is not a solution, but then support an enormous expansion of government.

Similiarly, you are in the position of supporting greatly expanded government powers, at the cost of states’ rights and individual freedoms. So, regardless of the ideology you state, when it comes to personal action you support a much larger, much more powerful government.

And this appears to be just one of the compromises you make. Whatever their “intent”, you support political policies which have overseen a prolonged period of stagnant wages, anemic job growth, shrinking economic mobility, and record setting debt. You may vote about ‘abortion’, but you are also voting for the other actions of those you support. Changes to Medicare which drive inflation, changes to bankruptcy laws that make it much harder to escape medical debt and much easier to walk away from a mortgage, and public policies which promote the outsourcing of US jobs.

In today’s empty political discourse we pretend that this is largely opinion. But these are the things we can measure. We have inflation, we have negative savings rates, we have a contracting job market, and we have record corporate profits. President Bush once referred to CEOs and the wealthy as his “base”. There is little doubt that they have been well served by this administration. Look at the last acts of the GOP congress before it lost control.

The question is, having collapsed the faith to a single issue, are social conservatives being as well served? The measurable evidence says no. The decline in abortions has slowed (even reversed direction in some states), gay rights have been expanded, and poverty is expanding. All the while we find ourselves at odds with Rome on issues like war, torture, and our humanitarian obligations to Christians we are helping to persecute.

I’ve always found it fascinating to hear folks boast about their ‘conservative’ voting when the VP’s old employer, in which he still has a financial interest, gets $2.4B to, among other things, serve rancid food and tainted water to US troops in a time of war. Are greed and corruption the ‘good ol’ fashioned values’ people want to return to? The same man publicly supports his daughter’s decision to have a child inside a gay union, publicly asserts things which are demonstrably false, declares himself a unique, uncontrolled, branch of the government, runs his office so poorly that misshandling of classified materials leads to two criminal convictions, demonstrates the sort of judgement that includes drinking alchohol before shooting someone in the face (having grown up in farm country, I still can’t fathom the sort of incompetence it must take to screw up ‘hunting’ domesticated birds), and declares that publicly berating fellow elected officials with foul obsceneties makes him “feel better”.

I volunteered for a war I had grave doubts about. He dodged service while claiming to support the war. Why, exactly, am I supposed to conclude that these people share any of my core values?
I’m thinkin the SoCal is working to change the vote of conservative Catholics, but I’m telling y’all come this fall NOT a single red state is gonna flip. No sir, not based on the avaiallbe choices. I will add the reverse is not true. I’m seeing a 2-3 blue states come into play, but even if they don’'t, not gonna matter.

Hard to fool the folks in Flyover country.

And ya heard it here first LOL., so give it a break SoCal.
 
I maintain as I always have that abortion in all circumstances is gravely immoral, including the treatment of ectopic pregnancy. One cannot justify, using any number of mental contortions, saying that removing an misplaced embryo, whether by itself or in conjuction with a portion of the fallopian tube, is not direct abortion solely on the merits of the former or the latter condition. It is the difference between killing someone by shooting him or dropping a bomb on his house with the person inside. They are both direct actions intended to eliminate the victim.
It would be a graver sin and morally wrong to let the mother die when there is zero chance of saving the unborn. There can be no morally defensible position for withholding medical treatment in such circumstances.
 
Originally Posted by mapleoak forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
I maintain as I always have that abortion in all circumstances is gravely immoral, including the treatment of ectopic pregnancy. One cannot justify, using any number of mental contortions, saying that removing an misplaced embryo, whether by itself or in conjuction with a portion of the fallopian tube, is not direct abortion solely on the merits of the former or the latter condition. It is the difference between killing someone by shooting him or dropping a bomb on his house with the person inside. They are both direct actions intended to eliminate the victim.
It would be a graver sin and morally wrong to let the mother die when there is zero chance of saving the unborn. There can be no morally defensible position for withholding medical treatment in such circumstances.
This is making the faulty assumption that the mother is going to die on the merits of an ectopic condition being present and therefore preventative ‘treatment’ must be administered so that the mother’s life is not endangered. It is taking a human life in order to not potentially risk medical complications, however remote.
In addition, zero chance of saving someones life does not mean it is okay to exterminate them prematurely at ones own hand.

BTW most ectopic conditions resolve themselves without having to murder the unborn.
 
One of our former presidents said that you’re not REALLY pro-life unless you are for imprisonment or execution of people who get or provide abortions.

I actually heard that with my own ears. Actual words. Verbatim. Delivered with vehemence.

But that somehow doesn’t seem quite right.

Too much spin.

Not enough wiggle room.

Too much “one size fits all”.

Not enough room for charity.

Not enough room for working to encourage prayer to the Holy Spirit.

Too much of letting “pro-choice” people dictate pro-life policy … it’s not their prerogative to tell us how to think … particularly when they have so much blood on their hands.
 
One of our former presidents said that you’re not REALLY pro-life unless you are for imprisonment or execution of people who get or provide abortions.

I actually heard that with my own ears. Actual words. Verbatim. Delivered with vehemence.

But that somehow doesn’t seem quite right.

Too much spin.

Not enough wiggle room.

Too much “one size fits all”.

Not enough room for charity.

Not enough room for working to encourage prayer to the Holy Spirit.

Too much of letting “pro-choice” people dictate pro-life policy … it’s not their prerogative to tell us how to think … particularly when they have so much blood on their hands.
Why does a pro-choice person get to tell a pro-life people whether they are pro-life or not, or what they need to support in order to be pro-life?
 
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