Catholics Can Be Pro-Choice?

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So I’ll ask him- So you’re not interested in flipping conservative pro life Catholics from your side of the political spectrum, which you’ve aptly described in hundreds of posts?
I apparently have not ‘aptly’ described, since you continue to get it wrong.

My position is that Catholics should trust in God and follow the Church. Failing that, they should attempt to still follow Christ in one regard: Luke 18:9-14.

Our Pope considers moral relativism to be the greatest current threat to the Church. In connection, he stressed exactly the same point, going so far as to suggest that we refer to Luke 15:11-32 by a different name.

For many here, the world circles around their politics. Ender just argued that following Catholicism, as instructed by the Church, is part of ‘the problem’, since it stops the politically centered from making huge and real progress. Vern has expressed a similiar argument.

Perhaps part of the reason that you continue to twist everything I say is that you simply cannot envision any other existance but your own or the straw men you spend each day despising. If you aren’t a dutiful Republican, you must be a hated Dem… The idea that I would pick a third way, follow the Church as best I can and trust in God, is possibly something that you just can grasp within your current world view.
 
Again, misinterpretations on your part. Slapping a person on the cheek was a form of insult amongst the Jews. Christ meant that one should not respond to a clearly non-lethal attack with violence.
Point in fact, we don’t know exactly what Christ meant, but you’ve got perhaps the most widely held interpretation almost correct. The key is the left hand being unclean. One would strike only with the right hand. Right hand to right cheek is a backhand blow, for an inferior. Presenting the other cheek would force the agressor to strike you open handed, as an equal. Turning his violence into his shame.

Christ was talking to essentially a sharecropper society. Landowners would go to court and take your cloak. They had to return it each night, so it was more a badge of shame at your debts than anything else. But the relationship was exploitive. Now, suppose that instead of just surrendering your cloak, you stripped naked and handed over everything. The unspoken message being fine, you control everything, even the land I scratch for subsistance, if you want to shame me, shame me. But because of the taboos about nudity, suddenly the same is on the land owner.

The Roman army could conscript anyone to carry their gear. But, only for one mile. The limit seems to have been enforced because we have records of punishments. Now, you’ve been conscripted and forced to act as a pack mule. You get to the mile and suddenly, you say, no problem, I’ll keep carrying it… Suddenly the position of power has changed.

The message taken from this is that you can resist evil with something other than your fists. Notice that in all these the aggressor has an opportunity for redemption.
Christ did not say, “If a man rapes and kills your wife, stand by while he does it, and let him do the same to your daughter.”

Self-defense is nowhere forbidden by Christ, and was a well-established principle in the Old Testament. The Church has never forbidden self-defense.
The only part of the Jewish Bible that Jesus openly questioned was “an eye for an eye”. He specifically offered an alternative. Jesus appears to have resisted evil with every fiber of his being, but he also matched his words with actions.

If, as I do, you believe that Jesus was the Son of Man, then he most certainly could have resisted the horrific evil of his own torture and execution with might. But he comforted the women, he consoled his fellow prisoner, and he asked for our forgiveness. The question is, are we supposed to follow Jesus’ example or not?

The early Christian writers indicated that they took the rejection of violence very, very seriously. You, clearly, disagree.
 
An aside here, but I had once heard that the hippocratic oath is no longer required to be made by graduates from med school at many universities now. Always wondered why. After reading some posts here, I looked the oath up online. One line of the oath struck me:

“Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion”

Just thought that was very telling…
I thought that I would share that less than ten years ago there was a deacon in my Catholic parish who was also a gyn doctor. The hospitals in our area had stated that he could not have hospital status unless he agreed to do abortions when called upon to do so. He refused. They refused. He had to leave the state to practice medicine as he had vowed to do as a doctor and as a Catholic. It’s not easy to be a Christian who believes in moral obligations to others or a Catholic who believes in moral obligations to others…it’s a moral choice to walk in your beliefs that your faith states for you. God is always watching over us. Let us hope that what he sees in us will be pleasing to him. I feel that he was very pleased with the doctor.
 
Originally Posted by mapleoak forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
I maintain as I always have that abortion in all circumstances is gravely immoral, including the treatment of ectopic pregnancy. One cannot justify, using any number of mental contortions, saying that removing an misplaced embryo, whether by itself or in conjuction with a portion of the fallopian tube, is not direct abortion solely on the merits of the former or the latter condition. It is the difference between killing someone by shooting him or dropping a bomb on his house with the person inside. They are both direct actions intended to eliminate the victim.

Ectopic pregnancy when allowed to progress will both kill the mother and the infant. The fallopian tube is not able to expand to the necessary size for the infant and will explode into the abdomen causing a bacterial influx and infection killing both persons. This is known by the physicians who treat pregnancies due to all past histories on ectopics. The Church allows saving lives when both lives would be lost. The pregnancy would never reach a viable stage for the fetus outside the body and so the mother is generally saved so that she may give life again in another pregnancy although she generally loses that ovary attached to the fallopian tube that was involved. The fetus cannot not be moved to the uterus to survive as there would be no placenta or cord for the fetus there. In this case, the Church, having investigated ectopic pregnancies, stands with the physicians.

This is making the faulty assumption that the mother is going to die on the merits of an ectopic condition being present and therefore preventative ‘treatment’ must be administered so that the mother’s life is not endangered. It is taking a human life in order to not potentially risk medical complications, however remote.
In addition, zero chance of saving someones life does not mean it is okay to exterminate them prematurely at ones own hand.

BTW most ectopic conditions resolve themselves without having to murder the unborn.
 
Point in fact, we don’t know exactly what Christ meant, but you’ve got perhaps the most widely held interpretation almost correct. The key is the left hand being unclean. One would strike only with the right hand. Right hand to right cheek is a backhand blow, for an inferior. Presenting the other cheek would force the agressor to strike you open handed, as an equal. Turning his violence into his shame.

Christ was talking to essentially a sharecropper society. Landowners would go to court and take your cloak. They had to return it each night, so it was more a badge of shame at your debts than anything else. But the relationship was exploitive. Now, suppose that instead of just surrendering your cloak, you stripped naked and handed over everything. The unspoken message being fine, you control everything, even the land I scratch for subsistance, if you want to shame me, shame me. But because of the taboos about nudity, suddenly the same is on the land owner.

The Roman army could conscript anyone to carry their gear. But, only for one mile. The limit seems to have been enforced because we have records of punishments. Now, you’ve been conscripted and forced to act as a pack mule. You get to the mile and suddenly, you say, no problem, I’ll keep carrying it… Suddenly the position of power has changed.

The message taken from this is that you can resist evil with something other than your fists. Notice that in all these the aggressor has an opportunity for redemption.
And notice none of these examples involved a real threat of death – only humiliation. And I agree, such things do not justify deadly force.

But there are situations where one has a duty to defend, and with as much force as necessary.
The only part of the Jewish Bible that Jesus openly questioned was “an eye for an eye”. He specifically offered an alternative. Jesus appears to have resisted evil with every fiber of his being, but he also matched his words with actions.

If, as I do, you believe that Jesus was the Son of Man, then he most certainly could have resisted the horrific evil of his own torture and execution with might. But he comforted the women, he consoled his fellow prisoner, and he asked for our forgiveness. The question is, are we supposed to follow Jesus’ example or not?

The early Christian writers indicated that they took the rejection of violence very, very seriously. You, clearly, disagree.
I don’t disagree with the early Christian writers – they did, after all, pray for the success of the Emperor’s Armies. And one of the first non-Jewish Christians was a soldier, Cornelius the Centurion. And Peter did not tell him to leave the Army.
 
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

A fetus is just that until it has developed to the point where it can survive outside the womb. Until God has breathed life into that body it does not have a soul.

I believe in life. I also believe in the right to choose, however there are caveat’s to that right.
 
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

A fetus is just that until it has developed to the point where it can survive outside the womb. Until God has breathed life into that body it does not have a soul.

I believe in life. I also believe in the right to choose, however there are caveat’s to that right.
As Catholics and Christians, we believe that God breaths life into the cells that join together to form the human being (body) who is developing …life is developing and it is possible therefore at that moment in God’s time, a soul was created. I agree with you that quote “until God has breathed life into that body it doesn’t have a soul…” however, it’s important for us to not decide when God does this but to accept that He does do it. God is God and that says it all to me. Let us let God do the giving of the soul whenever He chooses and let us finally just give over and LET GOD BE GOD.
 
Ectopic pregnancy when allowed to progress will both kill the mother and the infant. The fallopian tube is not able to expand to the necessary size for the infant and will explode into the abdomen causing a bacterial influx and infection killing both persons. This is known by the physicians who treat pregnancies due to all past histories on ectopics. The Church allows saving lives when both lives would be lost. The pregnancy would never reach a viable stage for the fetus outside the body and so the mother is generally saved so that she may give life again in another pregnancy although she generally loses that ovary attached to the fallopian tube that was involved. The fetus cannot not be moved to the uterus to survive as there would be no placenta or cord for the fetus there. In this case, the Church, having investigated ectopic pregnancies, stands with the physicians.
I refer you back to an oldie but goodie covering in depth many of the arguments pertaining to the so-called MEDICAL necessity of aborting ectopic embryos:

Pro-abortion arguments…those who are pro-choice, what do/did you really believe?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=153396
 
Re: Catholics can be Pro-Choice?

The examples listed (from the original post) are like “watermelons to blueberries” never mind “Apples to Oranges”!

Also…You could also have used the heading “Catholics can exercise their freewill” ! Duh (Sorry)😉
All this of course is self evident, from when one gets up in the morning.

Maybe turning it around will clear it up.
  • Can one who can seriously contemplate aborting a “soul” be considered a Catholic? -
    (Read… Jeremiah 1:5) There you’ll find your Answer (Yes I know this “particular” soul was to be a Prophet… But God doesn’t love any other soul any less.
 
You might want to use different words. I don’t think too many Catholics scholars or Bishops would agree that the Vicar of Christ “redefines” Catholicism. I’ve heard Protestants make that charge before though…:o
I should have selected my words more carefully. I am referring to the proper interpretation of Catholic teaching for a particular age.

Abortion is such a case. We have always held it to be immoral, but the Church was passive in the case of saving maternal life and the sin was treated less grievously. For example, pennance in the 7th century appears to have been 120 days for abortion, 10 years for oral sex.

Pope Pius IX broke with long standing tradition in 1869, but his actions have been subsequently been upheld by the Second Vatican Council. So, it was a matter of priority and response.

That said, we do hold that the Vicar of Christ can assert divine inspiration on certain matters.
 
As Catholics and Christians, we believe that God breaths life into the cells that join together to form the human being (body) who is developing …life is developing and it is possible therefore at that moment in God’s time, a soul was created. I agree with you that quote “until God has breathed life into that body it doesn’t have a soul…” however, it’s important for us to not decide when God does this but to accept that He does do it. God is God and that says it all to me. Let us let God do the giving of the soul whenever He chooses and let us finally just give over and LET GOD BE GOD.
FWIW, Genesis and Exodus can sometimes be better understood in the context of Jewish law, or Halacha, from the time.

At the time of Jesus, Jews held that you became a full person (nefesh) at birth, or first breath. We see this in the language of Genesis and we still use similiar language in reference to the Holy Spirit in Catholic Canon today.

Abortion was generally forbidden, because the fetus was recognized as a potential person. The one exception was when the life of the mother, or her other children might be threatened. Then an abortion was not only permitted, but considered the correct moral decision. The fetus was then considered a ‘wanderer’.

Infanticide was the principle problem among gentile converts for the first millenia. And we know from Tertullian and others that a form of neonatal eugenics was a common practice among Christians by the second century. Sadly, a Pope still makes reference to a similiar practice in an Allocution to Midwives in 1951.

Your understanding of our teachings is correct, and important to understand. When we simply state ‘this is what we have always held’, then we are easily proved incorrect by our own written history. Similiarly, when we assert (falsely) that we teach simultaneous animation, we leave ourselves open to attacks both on the secular biology front (sometimes a single zygote becomes two people, other times it becomes something like a uterine cyst, complete with its own, seperate DNA), and on theological and moral consistancy.

Let’s face it, we cannot claim that we truly see zygotes as people and their demise as murder if our actions betray us. Only a very small segment of the population calls for treating women procurring abortions as murderers. Even fewer would call for treating woman who removes a malignant cyst or mole as one.

This is why I think our understanding is much more coherent and consistant. First, we have never held pro-choice beliefs. We have always held abortion to be a moral sin, we just made a distinction (up to the late 19th century) because for many centuries we believed we knew when the soul was infussed (quickening). Similarly, the Church did not reverse itself on abortions to save the mother’s life, it had largely remained mute, referring inquiries to theologians as late as 1869.

Second, we do not hypocritically elevate abortion to special status. Evangelium Vitae, Christifideles Laici, etc. hold a consistant message of every stage, every condition, tying it to our dogmatic beliefs of the inalienable rights of the human person. In other words, we do not rely on portraying the mothers as charactiture villians, we strive for people to have the proper understanding of the true value of human life.

Finally, we accept the teaching both when it is easy and hard. It is easy to waggle fingers and ‘drunken sluts using abortion as birth control’, it is much harder to state that we’d watch a beloved wife or sister die rather than procure an abortion. We even have tied abortion to euthanasia and the death penalty.

Peace
 
I asked the SoCal this back in post #255
Originally Posted by BamaRider
So I’ll ask him- So you’re not interested in flipping conservative pro life Catholics to your side of the political spectrum, which you’ve aptly described in hundreds of posts?
His answer to the question was THIS-
I apparently have not ‘aptly’ described, since you continue to get it wrong.
My position is that Catholics should trust in God and follow the Church. Failing that, they should attempt to still follow Christ in one regard: Luke 18:9-14.
Our Pope considers moral relativism to be the greatest current threat to the Church. In connection, he stressed exactly the same point, going so far as to suggest that we refer to Luke 15:11-32 by a different name.
For many here, the world circles around their politics. Ender just argued that following Catholicism, as instructed by the Church, is part of ‘the problem’, since it stops the politically centered from making huge and real progress. Vern has expressed a similiar argument.
Perhaps part of the reason that you continue to twist everything I say is that you simply cannot envision any other existance but your own or the straw men you spend each day despising. If you aren’t a dutiful Republican, you must be a hated Dem… The idea that I would pick a third way, follow the Church as best I can and trust in God, is possibly something that you just can grasp within your current world view.
A weather report was not necessary, just yea or nah, so after reading all that you’re left having to draw your own conclusions. And when you do, the SoCal jumps up and down and says, we twist his words.

So I isolated this text in a attempt to get a simple answer to a simple question.
My position is that Catholics should trust in God and follow the Church. Failing that, they should attempt to still follow Christ in one regard
Ok, thats what I’m doing when I vote for pro life conservative candidates. That would not be a good thing in your view?
We even have tied abortion to euthanasia and the death penalty.
After reading this quote, am I correct in thinking you feel it is wrong to tie abortion to the latter two life issues, and if so, why?
For example, you find the torture of detainees wholly acceptable. This is utterly rejected by the Catechism (CCC 2313).
I’m not for the wholesale torture of prisoners, but if one has specific knowledge of a impending terrorist attack, I’m for doing what is necessary to prevent it. But I’m “not for throwing stuff on the wall to see what sticks.” I believe in doing what is necessary to terroists with specific knowledge as self defense, and as Vern pointed out, not refuted by the Church.
When Pope Pius IX dropped the distinction, he specifically stated that the fetus is inarguably not animated. That is, we do not consider abortion gravely immoral only when it is murder, but in all other cases.
As I quoted above, the Church reaffirmed this position in a Doctrinal Note regarding abortion 30 years ago and again in a Doctrinal Note regarding questions of the use of fetal tissue 20 years ago.
Pope Pius IX stated that the baby (it is NOT a fetus where I come from) is inarguably not animated. Does this mean Pius IX didn’t believe the baby in the womb as a person? And later doctrine notes reaffirmed that postion, or did I misunderstand the text?
We do not hold that abortion is always murder.
We don’t??
 
Catholics cannot be pro-choice as we are called to promote a culture of life and not culture of death. we have to safeguard life from the womb to the tomb. the ‘life’ growing in the womb has the same rights like those outside the womb…
fr anthony j f
 
Hi everyone. Please look at the quote below and tell me what, if anything, is wrong with it. Thanks!
The only possible choice that a catholic has is to be pro life. From conception to natural death. Anything else is an aberration.
Life is the domain of God and we tamper with that to our peril.
GraceAngel.
 
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

A fetus is just that until it has developed to the point where it can survive outside the womb. Until God has breathed life into that body it does not have a soul.

I believe in life. I also believe in the right to choose, however there are caveat’s to that right.
Life begins at conception and to think otherwise is believing in false doctrine…secondly, God devised a method for the development of the fetus within the womb just because the fetus cannot survive outside the womb does not make the life of the fetus a mute point.
 
As words like Square was changed from fair and honest to outdated and naive…and Dope from an evil mind killer to pot.just a cutesy high…choice now means a mature caring person who just is PC and is also loving…as one whos daughter had to go down to Colombia to adopt and pay some $25000.00 for this lil angel.there is no way a temporary host…mom can kill that developing baby and still be 'Catholic" like Benedict Arnold…when he turned traitor one finds no reference to him anymore as Patriot Arnold…he should have been hanged like Robert E.Lee should have…for disgracing his oath…no one forces anyone to be a member of the one,holy apostolic Roman church…but like a righthanded batter running to third because its more convenient for him to do so since his completed swing has him facing third…instead of first…he would be tossed out…self ex-communication is there…so when ‘americas mayor’ performed the ultimate insult by receiving the scared Host yesterday ,it was like a pagan sitting at the last supper and smirking at Jesus…Thank God there was a site like Catholics against Rudy…I and others around the nation joined in a holy crusade against this evil man and he lost his bid…the very first part of the reasons why our Founders left England was" that all …are created by God with the right to life (!) liberty and the pursuit of happiness…the right to life is God given…governments role is to protect that right…May God have mercy on this sinful weak wristed nation of cowards…have a nice day
 
[SIGN]The whole statement is wrong and based on deception and word play.[/SIGN]
First off the writer uses the euphemism “Pro-choice” and makes it synonymous with free-will; if taken at face value then that is correct. Yet we need to initially have that freewill to decide whether you are pro-choice (choose freewill) … that whole second paragraph seems illogical.

But let’s look at what is really meant by “pro-choice”. And not fall into the trap that this writer sets. “Pro-Choice” is also a euphemism for the more offensive proposition of ” a woman’s right to choose” To choose what exactly? …to abort her fetus or to go through with the pregnancy. The deception is that it (pro-choice) is a Positive vs Positive selection (which it is not) One results in Life and the other in Death (or at the very least the termination of what could have been a life) [SIGN]…and “one” does not have the “RIGHT” to choose for “another” …can anyone disagree with that? Where is the others - FREWILL?[/SIGN]

Finally, The last few words in the last paragraph is a tell tale sign of where this particular writer is coming from and of how much this writer has been sucked into the acceptance of the mainstream culture we live in. A legal system that lacks morals (as we have now) and is only concerned with the functionality of the Government/State and otherwise has left the more conscionable matters to be examined through the scope of individualism and relativism … is a legal system without any morals. That’s what happens when you have something that isn’t alive and has no conscience; it becomes the servant of masters with deep pockets and agendas, and who also lack a conscience.

[SIGN]I still stand by Jeremiah 1:5 as when God views the beginning of a LIFE…
And if you don’t believe in God’s own words then you’re definitely not a Catholic.[/SIGN]
So “NO” you can’t be a Catholic and be Pro-choice, not if you apply the correct euphemism for “pro-Choice”

Stop playing head games!!!
 
Pope Pius IX stated that the baby (it is NOT a fetus where I come from) is inarguably not animated. Does this mean Pius IX didn’t believe the baby in the womb as a person? And later doctrine notes reaffirmed that postion, or did I misunderstand the text?
Hmm…this paragraph made me think of an important biblical reference:
usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke1.htm
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb…
Sounds pretty “animated” to me. 🤷 What was that baby doing leaping, when neither he nor Our Lord whom he leapt in response to had received the “breath of life” at birth?
 
The problem is that the quote equates free will with God’s will for our actions. While it is true that it is God’s will that we have free will–to choose–he expects us to act on our informed conscience to act within the natural law and within his Revelation. Failure to do so constitutes mortal sin.

It is true you have the ability to choose, but you have the ability to choose the wrong things.
I’ve heard it said that non-Catholics who have not had the advantage of the Churches’ teaching on abortion…are not culpable for the sin of having an abortion because they haven’t been taught the truth…that killing one’s own offspring is a
horrible, objective evil. I disagree. Aquinas taught us that Natural Law (the “rules” by which we must live in order to be in harmony with our Creator & His Creation) are **self-**evident.

The answers to some questions of morality are written on the heart of every human being. We can know many of God’s desires for our lives by reason alone. We, when we are looking at the world through our Creator’s eyes, do not have to be taught that it is wrong to murder our neighbor simply because we don’t like him. While homosexual acts are not mentioned in the Ten Commandments, we can know by reason alone that they are not part of God’s plan for the human family. They are not complementary, nor can they be partake in the propagation of the human race. It is the same with abortion, we can know that to kill one’s own child goes completely against every natural instinct that God has given to a pregnant woman.

What is really frightening is that our own human nature has become so SKEWED, so DISORDERED that the Truths of God are not **self-**evident to many. The only other answer is that they do recognize what is 'written on the hearts of me’n as right & just…&…they just don’t care. Myself, I believe that it is the first scenario mentioned above that is happening. What will have to happen to get the human race back of track??
 
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