Catholics can get Christened by any Christian pastor in any Church

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I think the kissing of the Qur’an has been put to rest by the Sacred Congregation for the Causes of the Saints. There were thousands of pages of writings submitted to them. There were several thousand testimonies, including that of Pope Benedict himself, as a private citizen. There was a proven miracle. The Church is convinced that Pope John Paul is neither a heretic nor did he sin against the faith. The Holy Father is convinced that he is a saint and that he wants this cause to move forward. If the answers raised about John Paul II are good enough to appease the Defender of the Faith (formerly known as the Devil’s Advocate) and his team, the Sacred Congregation, the team of Cardinal Theologians and the Holy Father himself, all who independently read these reports, I’m not about to sit here and open an issue that they seem to have closed.

If it bothers someone so much, then write to the Sacred Congregation for the Causes of the Saints and ask them for their findings on this point. They do respond. You may have to wait a monthly or two, but they do answer. Don’t upset the faith of other people.

It’s silly for us to hash out something that was already hashed out at the Vatican. In two hours this man will be declared Blessed and will be elevated to every altar in the Diocese of Rome and every Polish diocese as well as some other dioceses who have asked for permission to celebrate his feast day. What are people living in those dioceses going to do, abstain from going to mass on the Feast of Bl. John Paul II, because he kissed a Qur’an?

Legend has it that St. Francis also kissed the Qur’an. Does anyone remember, 800 years later? No. Does anyone care? No. Franciscans have never tried to prove or disprove it. It’s not important. We know the holiness of these men and their love for the Church. We also know that it is a common custom in many Eastern cultures to kiss a gift as a sign of respect for the gift-giver. If the pope or St. Francis or St. Francis Xavier or any other missionary is going to visit another nation and culture, he has to be ready to meet people where they’re at and go from there. Offending them is not a good beginning.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
pnewton said:
Critics of the Pope often use the tactic of taking a document that says one thing and applying it to something else. This document is not addressed to Catholics seeking baptism. That simply isn’t what it does. It address non-Catholic baptism. The idea of a Catholic who seeks baptism in a Protestant Church isn’t even addressed in this. If you wish to try and apply it to this situation, then yes, you still have a valid baptism, even as you would if a layperson baptized with the proper formula. The way this thread is titled it looks like the document is giving permission for this to happen, which it does not. To give it another twist, a person could get baptized in a schismatic Church in the Catholic tradition of some kind. This is perfectly valid. Yet this document is hardly granting permission for such an action.
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You’re right. That quote is found in several documents. That last one being Ut Unum Sint. None of these documents are encouraging Catholics to get baptized by a non-Catholic pastor.

What is said is that there is one Baptism. We already knew this. We profess this in the Creed. That’s why we don’t baptize converts who are validly babtized.

But the citation offered in the OP is not even about Baptism. It’s about God’s desire to save and it’s one paragraph in a larger collection of writings.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
thirddec said:
DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

Am I reading this wrong when I think it is saying that A good Catholic missionary who has lived by their faith faithfull in every way including preaching the Pope is Christs representative on Earth has as good a chance of making it into heaven as a Good Baptist missionary who believed and preached the Pope was the devils representative on Earth. :eek:
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You asked about this in another thread and I suggested that you begin a thread on this subject. However, I expected you to take an honest approach to the subject. I even encouraged you to look at the directives on Ecumenism as a good source to start the dialogue. Instead, you have chosen to pluck out one statement from a document that has several hundred paragraphs and two encyclicals that follow.

This shows an intent on your part to prove something, rather than an invitation to an honest understanding of what the Church is saying. You must make it clear for these ladies and gentlement that your intent is not to understand, but to “prove wrong” something that you have already judged and condemned.

Had you had an honest interest in understanding the Catholic Church’s position on ecumenism you would have started with the first paragraph of this document, which clearly states the place of the Catholic Church in salvation history.

The courageous witness of so many martyrs of our century, including members of Churches and Ecclesial Communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church, gives new vigour to the Council’s call and reminds us of our duty to listen to and put into practice its exhortation. These brothers and sisters of ours, united in the selfless offering of their lives for the Kingdom of God, are the most powerful proof that every factor of division can be transcended and overcome in the total gift of self for the sake of the Gospel.

**Nevertheless, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. Complacency, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. **

Together with all Christ’s disciples, the Catholic Church bases upon God’s plan her ecumenical commitment to gather all Christians into unity. Indeed, "the Church is not a reality closed in on herself. Rather, she is permanently open to missionary and ecumenical endeavour, for she is sent to the world to announce and witness, to make present and spread the mystery of communion which is essential to her, and to gather all people and all things into Christ, so as to be for all an ‘inseparable sacrament of unity’ ".

Ut Unum Sint

There are three parts to ecumenism:
  1. Recognizing that many men and women of different Christian traditions have given their lives for the name of Christ.
  2. Putting aside misunderstandings and hostilities between Christians in order to work toward unity.
  3. Bringing all men into unity in Christ through the Church, which is the sacarament of unity.
There is no compromising on the place of the Church. What we’re being asked to do is to put aside prejudices on both sides, Catholics and non-Catholics. But you chose to isolate one passage to promote the very same negative attitudes that keep Christians separated from each other and in so doing, you’re promoting further division, this time within the Catholic Church. That’s not the way that we study the Church’s position on ecumenism.

The proper way to study it is to look at what she says about herself first, then what she says about others. When we do this, we find that she does not give up anything that she has always said about herself, except to give up on the hostility and the anger that has kept all of us separated for so many hundreds of years and she asks non-Catholics to do the same, to set aside the bitterness of the past and walk through the dialogue on the things that we have in common and the things that still separate us.

Fraternally,

Br, JR, OSF 🙂
 
Whenever a discussion comes up about unapproved apparitions etc we are always warned to treat things with caution as satan can and will use 99% truth to hide an innocuous 1% lies but once that 1% gets in he can start to use that to lead the faithfull astray. I just suggest we urge the same caution on anything that may mean a change in our faith outlook and not just follow like blind mice. Thats not disobedience after all what are these advisors for the Pope for but to advise. And if only the wise and learned may advise then where is the belief in the primacy of conscience and the ability of the Holy Spirit. By encouraging everyone to think and learn the clear view of everyone will eventually merge and be a fulsome advice. A bit like when all the tiny computers are all linked to deal with one massive problem. To say don’t worry yourself about these things or your not good enough to have an opinion worth listening to or any other thing to tell us to turn of our critical skills is to deny us our God given right to think. 😃

We need to be kept fully informed about all these things by the hierarchy that should make them readily available in language that is plain and clear and not subject to confusion.🤷
 
thirddec said:
DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

For men who believe in Christ and have been** truly baptized **are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect.

Am I reading this right that according to this document any Baptism is a true baptism so if I can’t get a good date at the local Catholic Church and theres a free spot at the local Baptist Church thats fine as the are all true baptisms. ?

If this is wrong then surely there is confusion in this sentence in the Decree 😦
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Baptisms done in the correct form (“In the name of the Father…”) with the correct understanding of the Trinity (Three Persons, One Essence) are valid, regardless of who is baptizing. The Church has always taught that.
So, a baptism by a Oneness Pentecostal or a Mormon are not valid baptisms per the Catholic view, but a baptism by a Lutheran minister is most likely valid.
 
thirddec said:
Whenever a discussion comes up about unapproved apparitions etc we are always warned to treat things with caution as satan can and will use 99% truth to hide an innocuous 1% lies but once that 1% gets in he can start to use that to lead the faithfull astray. I just suggest we urge the same caution on anything that may mean a change in our faith outlook and not just follow like blind mice. Thats not disobedience after all what are these advisors for the Pope for but to advise. And if only the wise and learned may advise then where is the belief in the primacy of conscience and the ability of the Holy Spirit. By encouraging everyone to think and learn the clear view of everyone will eventually merge and be a fulsome advice. A bit like when all the tiny computers are all linked to deal with one massive problem. To say don’t worry yourself about these things or your not good enough to have an opinion worth listening to or any other thing to tell us to turn of our critical skills is to deny us our God given right to think. 😃

We need to be kept fully informed about all these things by the hierarchy that should make them readily available in language that is plain and clear and not subject to confusion.🤷
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Good point. God didn’t call us to be little drones.
 
Wow. Jesus Christ through the The Church thinks differently like we do.

I start to understand why the Jews cried in one voice: Let Him crucify. His blood on us in on our children.

This is deep in the human nature.
 
thirddec said:
Whenever a discussion comes up about unapproved apparitions etc we are always warned to treat things with caution as satan can and will use 99% truth to hide an innocuous 1% lies but once that 1% gets in he can start to use that to lead the faithfull astray. I just suggest we urge the same caution on anything that may mean a change in our faith outlook and not just follow like blind mice. Thats not disobedience after all what are these advisors for the Pope for but to advise. And if only the wise and learned may advise then where is the belief in the primacy of conscience and the ability of the Holy Spirit. By encouraging everyone to think and learn the clear view of everyone will eventually merge and be a fulsome advice. A bit like when all the tiny computers are all linked to deal with one massive problem. To say don’t worry yourself about these things or your not good enough to have an opinion worth listening to or any other thing to tell us to turn of our critical skills is to deny us our God given right to think. 😃

We need to be kept fully informed about all these things by the hierarchy that should make them readily available in language that is plain and clear and not subject to confusion.🤷
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Correct, however we should also not be skeptical to the point where it clouds our God given ability to use logic and reason.

This little rant sounds like your saying that because your confused then we should likewise be confused. And that if thirddec is worried then anyone that isn’t should be viewed as not thinking critically on the matters you believe are being expressed in the document.

I say rubbish
 
thirddec said:
True but there are people who feel that Vatican II brought good into the Church but also allowed something not so good . A Pope started that process. I worry if the good intentions of the Popes good intentions with reaching out to other world religions if we are not on our guard could result in false ideas and doctrines slipping into our belief systems before we even spot the danger. 😦
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Christ is in control. No worries.
 
thirddec said:
I just suggest we urge the same caution on anything that may mean a change in our faith outlook …
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qOcOp said:
This little rant …
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Sounds more like caution than a rant.
thirddec said:
… A bit like when all the tiny computers are all linked to deal with one massive problem.
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qOcOp said:
This little rant sounds like your saying that because your confused then we should likewise be confused.
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No, no. He’s saying different people will have have different outlooks and different insights to offer. Not that we will or should all have the same reactions.

Excellent signature by the way.
 
qOcOp said:
Correct, however we should also not be skeptical to the point where it clouds our God given ability to use logic and reason.

This little rant sounds like your saying that because your confused then we should likewise be confused. And that if thirddec is worried then anyone that isn’t should be viewed as not thinking critically on the matters you believe are being expressed in the document.

I say rubbish
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You know, I read it the same way! Why should we have to be confused and worried just because he is? :confused:
 
And to watch for the wolves that would try and destroy the flock. 😃

Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves.
 
thirddec said:
And to watch for the wolves that would try and destroy the flock. 😃

Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves.
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Yes, that is what Jesus told his disciples upon sending them on a mission. Unlike them, we have the promise of the Holy Spirit. The flock is not going to be destroyed. We are not being sent out, but rather have the Good Shepherd who will keep the wolves at bay.

By the way, did you know that who is calling who a “wolf” more often than not is just a form of begging the question? It is like calling an oppenent a Nazi, liberal or heretic. It is meaningless unless there is evidence, and if there is evidence, unneccessary.
 
thirddec said:
Whenever a discussion comes up about unapproved apparitions etc we are always warned to treat things with caution as satan can and will use 99% truth to hide an innocuous 1% lies but once that 1% gets in he can start to use that to lead the faithfull astray. I just suggest we urge the same caution on anything that may mean a change in our faith outlook and not just follow like blind mice. Thats not disobedience after all what are these advisors for the Pope for but to advise. And if only the wise and learned may advise then where is the belief in the primacy of conscience and the ability of the Holy Spirit. By encouraging everyone to think and learn the clear view of everyone will eventually merge and be a fulsome advice. A bit like when all the tiny computers are all linked to deal with one massive problem. To say don’t worry yourself about these things or your not good enough to have an opinion worth listening to or any other thing to tell us to turn of our critical skills is to deny us our God given right to think. 😃

We need to be kept fully informed about all these things by the hierarchy that should make them readily available in language that is plain and clear and not subject to confusion.🤷
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The Church expects us to use our common sense and reason to try to understand what she is saying, not to contradict her and undermine her, which is your apparent agenda.

I don’t see you asking for clarification. I see you assuming that you know better than the writer of the document and you’re going to teach the rest of us what is right and wrong.

That is not how the Church expects us to use our reason. That would make us all part of the Magisterium, which is not the case.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
thirddec said:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

WOW I read this and My hair stood on end; i’m not your lets all get back to latin ; or get the women in veils type but this is such a carte blanche to really get started on manipulating church docrines. It is so incideous that it will need deciphering. Already I am starting to cut for later pasting and following questioning in threads some very worrying passages. This is only the starting point as suggested by someone on another thread so It will be interesting what else this leads me too.
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Try reading this one “DIRECTORY FOR THE APPLICATION OF PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM”
 
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