Catholics & Children

[puzzleannie]

Siena:

Annie left out that there is a unitive aspect to sex as well, which is why each act of intercourse does not need to result in a child. (This results in a strengthening of the marriage bond.)

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you did not read far enough, I actually said the purpose is procreation and the meaning is unitive love, not my words, the distinction was made in an article on Catholic Exchange earlier this week, I will go back and get the link in a minute. your exposition is beautiful. thank you.

 

[puzzleannie]

Le Cracquere:

. Suffice it to say I find their company tedious and exhausting at the same time, and feel impatient toward them just where a parent probably ought to feel indulgent. I.

I bet every parent hear finds their own children tedious and exhausting a great deal of the time, and feels impatient much of the time, but would argue the best parents are seldom indulgent and the best children are not reared by indulgent parents. I will also be secretly tickled when and if you do find yourself with some of your own, because I bet you will be a dynamite dad and throughly enjoy the experience, even the exhausting aspects of it.

 

[Lorarose]

I think Jesus probably could find all of us exhausting and tedious at times. And yet He still loves us.

It has been my personal experience that God often calls us out of our comfort zone in order to teach us more about Him.

So…a good question might be…Does God want you to remain in this mind-set? Or might He be calling you to grow out of it?
And if you had a difficult childhood, that does not mean your children would be doomed to the same.
With God there is healing, growth, and change of heart.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Le Cracquere:

…I married because I love my wife and wish to spend my life with her; to me, she’s not a means to children, or a means to any other end. To answer your other question … well, that would take a whole essay. Suffice it to say I find their company tedious and exhausting at the same time, and feel impatient toward them just where a parent probably ought to feel indulgent. I also found childhood a thoroughly dreadful experience, and have no wish to revisit it, even vicariously. (Aha! say all the armchair Freuds. We’ve got him now.) There are almost certainly decent, well-behaved children out there somewhere, but their scarcity has always made me feel as if rearing them is not a job for just anyone, and certainly not for someone whose dominant emotion regarding them is “make it go away.” If I wasn’t feeling dragged powerfully toward the Church, I wouldn’t even be trying to make sense of its doctrine here. But I’m trying.

God bless you for trying! As you might guess from my user name, I like children. I appreciate your efforts to step out of your comfort zone and examine why the Catholic Church teaches what it does.

First you wrote you love your wife. I believe you, but there are many different ways in which we can love other people. Christians are called to love each other in the way that God loves. The love of a husband for a wife should reflect Christ’s love for the Church. Quite simply, Jesus loves with a life-giving love. He imparts life into His Church.

Secondly, I can understand a little of the cross that you bear regarding how you view children. Somedays I find the company of my own children tedious and exhausting. While I do indeed have warm fuzzy feelings for my children, they certainly push those feelings to the limit some days. I don’t indulge my children as much as you may think, which explains why most people consider my children well behaved. I discipline them and dress them cute so they won’t be so difficult to endure. And somedays I also share the sentiment “make it go away”–and the reality is some day they will grow up and go away, and I’m not in a hurry for that to really happen.

Children are human, and as humans we have a fallen nature. The Catholic Church teaches a term called “concupiscence”, which is the “human appetites or desire which reamin disordered due to the temporal consequences of original sin, which remain even after Baptism, and which produce an inclination to sin.” (CCC 1264, 1426, 2515). This concupiscence is left for us to wrestle with (1264); it is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.(1426).

I believe children also suffer from those same inclinations towards selfishness, although they don’t yet clearly know what they are doing. Rather than being the darling innocents God intended all of us to be, they reflect more obviously the effects of the Fall upon our human natures. As they grow, parents must help tame those appetites towards selfishness. Having them helps me tame my own appetite for selfishness. And with that said, I am being called to serve. Gotta go.

 

[a_cermak]

But I still believe that if you don’t want children, you shouldn’t have them. You shouldn’t have them because you feel you should have them, because your parents want grandchildren, because it’s selfish not to want them, etc. If you don’t want children, don’t have them.

Now the Church teaches that children should be a part of marriage and a couple getting married without at least the intention of being at least open to children, would have grounds for annulment, but in your case, that doesn’t apply because your wife and yourself were not Catholic when you married. Because you are both baptized Christians, your marriage is assumed to be valid.

So why not convert, use NFP and pray that God plants the desire for children in your heart and your wife’s heart. And if that desire never comes, continue using NFP until past the chance of having children?

 

[tjmiller]

A voluntarily barren marriage is an invalid marriage. To wit, no marriage at all, but convenient fornication.
Breach of contract!

 

[a_cermak]

Only if from the outset (before the wedding) the decision to omit children was made. If at the outset, you are open to children, then change your mind a week into the marriage, I believe your marriage, if consummated, would be valid.

I see a lot of almost brow-beating of this poor soul to have children. If a person doesn’t want to have them, they really shouldn’t have them. Parents who want children have a hard enough time rearing them.

Pax,
Amy

 

[tjmiller]

If anyone reading this has children whom they do not want,
I beg you, let me and my bereaved wife have them.

 

[cynic]

puzzleannie:

if they were your own children, or somebody else’s children that you had the chance to discipline properly, they would not be nearly so obnoxious. also if your own views on material possession are in order, they won’t be nearly as expensive as people claim.

seriously, the Catholic Church teaches that the purpose of sex is procreation, which is an easily provable fact using natural law, you don’t even need a bible to deduce that reality. she further teaches that the meaning of marriage is love, its purpose is the procreation and rearing of children and its good fruit is unity, comparable to the unity of Christ with His Church. Indeed, that comparison is what makes marriage a sacrament, a physical sign and reality of Christ’s presence. Because our bodies are created good, and sex is the created means by which we procreate–literally cooperate with God in the divine act of creation–sex is good, and it is pleasurable because it is good. But the pleasure not the ultimate end of the act, that is the act is not undertaken solely for the pleasure but for its end, which is procreation.

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weren’t Adam and Ave married before procreation was even possible?

 

[AugustineFL]

Siena:

if she continues to use birth control, although be very careful, and try and talk to her, b/c the pill does not prevent all conceptions, and can cause an early abortion by damaging the lining of the uterus so the baby cannot implant.

This actually was one of the first things that made me & my wife start to see the truth of the Catholic Church. We where very pro-life and went to a pro-life baptist church with many pro-life people who didn’t teach that ‘the pill’ which can kill a human person! I’ll admit it isn’t something I’ve ever heard from a Catholic pulpit either , but I know that it is a teaching of the Church non the less! The package insert even admitted to that possibility when we looked at it! (okay it doesn’t say it that way…it says that ‘the pill’ will also help to prevent implantation in cases of ‘break through’ of an egg that is then fertilized).

That very day a Catholic showed us that I started to research it…when I saw it was true we threw out the pills immediately. We also abstained whilst we did our research in order to make sure. We erred on the side of LIFE.

 

[AugustineFL]

cynic:

weren’t Adam and Ave married before procreation was even possible?

When Adam and Eve were created I assume they where createdwith the proper ‘equipment’. Male and female he created them. So from the beginning they where able to procreate, otherwise they wouldn’t be man and woman, but rather just ‘man’ in the generic neuter or sexless sense.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Once again, thanks to all for the kind words & judicious thoughts.

Contra an earlier poster, I don’t feel unduly “brow-beaten”–I didn’t really expect kid gloves, especially on a subject that touches on the near affections of so many list members. Of course, God’s boundless patience with us all corresponds pretty well with the patience one ought ideally to show to children. (There’re a lot of things God is, that I ought to be, and that I’m not.) I’ve no intent to be “selfish,” at least no more than human nature usually entails. I’ve simply seen so many children conceived & born for no better reason than grandparental pressure, personal gratification without a sense of responsibility, or vague notions of what society expects: there’s selfishness, if one likes. There’s much about modern society’s childrearing practices that have probably caused quite a few people who otherwise would have had children to swear off the whole idea. Maybe in my parents’ or grandparents’ day, all this would have seemed more tolerable to me & my wife. But one only has the times one is given.

And by the way, I didn’t mean to cause confusion when I used the word “indulgent” earlier; I meant and should have said “patient” or “tolerant” or “less than homicidal.”

 

[gardenswithkids]

Le Cracquere:

…I’ve no intent to be “selfish,” at least no more than human nature usually entails. I’ve simply seen so many children conceived & born for no better reason than grandparental pressure, personal gratification without a sense of responsibility, or vague notions of what society expects: there’s selfishness, if one likes. There’s much about modern society’s childrearing practices that have probably caused quite a few people who otherwise would have had children to swear off the whole idea…

I’m glad to read you don’t feel browbeaten, because that wasn’t my intent. And I also didn’t mean to imply that you are selfish–at least not anymore than the rest of us. Yes, you are correct than some have children for selfish reasons. And I agree that many common childrearing practices make it very difficult for parents. A few thing strike me:

One: children aren’t young forever; they grow up. Do I understand you correctly that it’s young children that you dislike? Or do you dislike the whole idea of offspring to become the next generation of adults?

Second: We don’t even know if you and your wife *can *have children together. Maybe you can’t, and God therefore didn’t give you the desire to have something He doesn’t intend to give you. If a couple encounters infertility problems, the Catholic Church not only doesn’t require them to fix the problem, but it also considers it sinful to separate the creation of children from the reproductive act (i.e. IVF).

Sometimes I’ve encountered God asking me to be willing to do something for Him, only to have Him say “no” once I’ve become willing. He may not be asking you to become a parent; He might only want you to trust Him fully in all areas of your life.

Third: Even if you change your mind on this, it doesn’t mean your wife will. That is a whole different topic.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

gardenswithkids:

…Do I understand you correctly that it’s young children that you dislike? Or do you dislike the whole idea of offspring to become the next generation of adults?

Good points, indeed. To answer your question, I suppose it’s primarily children being children that I dislike, from birth right through adolescence. Seeing human nature in its process of maturation is probably inspiring to stronger and godlier constitutions than my own; to me, it’s too much like a tour through the sausage factory. I have no doubt that my loathing of children is a species of character flaw, and wouldn’t presume to dress it up as a virtue, but it’s there all the same. I have no theoretical problem with future generations–I’m all for them, in fact–but posterity needs physicians, too, and I never took that as a reason for every single person to enter medical school. What’s more, I never understood the concept of “vicarious immortality” that I’ve heard Catholic apologists refer to as a benefit of offspring. That last probably shouldn’t be the reason one has children in the first place, but if some future saint, or heretic, or criminal, or ordinary Joe happens to bear a couple of my genes, what’s that to me, or me to him in any sense beyond the purely biological?

gardenswithkids:

…He may not be asking you to become a parent; He might only want you to trust Him fully in all areas of your life.

Good point. What was it the man said? “Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him.” I just wish it didn’t feel so like a slaughter.

 

[Lorarose]

Good points, indeed. To answer your question, I suppose it’s primarily children being children that I dislike, from birth right through adolescence

The first step is to identify the problem - and you’ve certainly done that!

If God does want to call you out of this mind-set, it won’t be without alot of soul searching,prayer, and trust in His goodness.

 

[the-3rd-parent]

Le Cracquere:

we gather that Catholic married couples must not only eschew contraception, but must have children if at all possible.

Unless there is grave reason to avoid pregnancy, an openness to children is a must for the marriage to be valid. Marriage is “by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring.” Marriage is a vocation to the familial life. That life includes husband, wife and children. Now, there is such thing as a Josephite marriage where the couple marries but never consumates their marriage in the marital embrace. The practice deals more for individuals who serve the Church in very radical ways, such as living as missionaries in 3rd world countries and rather than serving biological children, you serve the needs of God’s children all around you.

Today the tradition is not encouraged by the Church for there is typically little need to marry if you’re going to be celebate anyway. But I have heard of cases where a Josephite marriage was encouraged by two missionaries to avoid scandal. They were preaching fidelity in marriage and abstainence before marriage, but many of the people they were preaching to believed the couple to have a sexual relationship. So they were married to avoid scandal, and regardless that they weren’t having sexual relations, if the people they served thought they were, it wasn’t spiritually hurting them.

In fact, saying that I dislike children doesn’t really cover it: I’m trying to recall a single child that I’ve met over the last year and haven’t felt a strong urge to kick, and I’m drawing a blank.

Than perhaps God is calling you and your wife to stretch your hearts and to grow spiritually. Loving children is a challenge for you and thus a route of spiritual purification.

Remember that children aren’t a mere side effect of having sex, but God’s gift to you. Is it right to reject His gifts?

What God creates is good and in your marriage it has the oppertunity to teach you and your wife’s hearts to love in a way they do not yet know how. Just because your heart is too small or hardened to love children now does not mean that in having your own children that it cannot be softened.

Christ calls us to love radically. Remember, we have hard hearts that need to be softened and they are softened through the acts we do that choose to love not when it is convinent and fun, but with it is difficult and we receive no retribution for it. We are called to love as Christ love and His example of love is being nailed to a cross, naked and abandoned and tormented and yet praying for those who hurt you.

edit
I have to add that I do like children. In fact, I get along better with children than I do with adults. I have the ability to stop or at least distract a baby from their tears in a matter of minutes. I understand children. I do not understand most adults. At family reunions, I enjoy myself more by playing and watching over the little ones than standing around having a dull conversation with one of the adults. But I suppose that’s just what happens when you’re the oldest great grandchild, have three younger siblings and your mom ran an inhome daycare till you were 12.

 

[Lorarose]

I understand children. I do not understand most adults.

As I stated before…there was a time when I did not like children either.
When I look back I think it is because I didn’t understand them.
They seemed foreign to me. When I spoke to them they didn’t seem to get what I was saying - and I didn’t like their attitude.
I also think children can sense very well when someone doesn’t like them.

Once I had children, and I began to learn more about them, and to speak their language, I overcame all of that.
I actually ended up in a job coaching children of all ages and absolutely loved it.

Maybe the problem here is that you don’t understand kids?
What exactly is it about them that makes you want to kick them?

 

[LittleDeb]

This thread is interesting. Glad you came to ask.

I think many people who don’t like children might have an expectation of them to be little adults. Some of them look like little adults so we expect them to act like them. When looking from the outside children are clumsy, ill-mannered, and loud. My son is all of the above. He is also one and a half. He trips when Mommy takes a too big step. He tries to feed his breakfast to the cat by flinging it to her. He recently discovered he can make this new high-pitched noise that he considers very entertaining. See, clumsy, ill-mannered, and loud. If he were an adult these traits would be very frustrating.

If I weren’t the one helping him overcome these behaviors I might want to fling him! I wouldn’t trade him for anything, though. He is the light of our lives. A dear friend of mine says, “It is amazing what you will accept from your own children that would drive you insane from someone else’s kids.” I think those who had a change of heart might have done so because they got to see this child from the very begining and every moment thereafter. It is an amazing gift.

To the OP whose cool screen name I cannot spell… Best wishes and prayers as you are on this journey toward (hopefully) Catholicism. Let us know if we can introduce you to some very happy, well-adjusted kids to help you change your mind. I’m sure there has to be one or two around here someplace.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Le Craquere,
I thought about this thread and your struggle with the imperfections of children. Then I thought about the Perfect Child–Jesus. As you said you found your dislike of children to be a character flaw, perhaps the One who perfects us all may help you with this if you ask Him. Many Catholic’s have a devotion to the Infant Jesus, praying to Jesus with the focus of our Incarnate Lord as a child. (There’s a famous statue called the Infant Jesus of Prague where Jesus is depicted as a child and dressed like a King.)

Here is a prayer that you may want to include as part of your prayer life:

O Jesus, Prince of Peace and King of the Universe, you chose to humble yourself and come into the world, not as a powerful ruler, but as a helpless infant; grant us the grace of humility and gentleness before you and our brothers and sisters. Grant, too, O Lord, that we may always strive to achive the virtue and innocence of your own Holy Childhood. Instill in us a growing faith in you, O Lord, and the strength to resist temptation in a world which so widely rejects you. Look upon us with compassion and forgive us our sins. Fill our hearts with kindness and understanding, especially for children, the aged and those we dislike or who dislike us.

O Jesus, who so loved children that you admonished us, “Unless you become like little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven,” grant us a child-like faith and purity of heart. Give us the grace not only to pray fervently, but to help spread your Gospel by deed as well as word. Amen.

 

[tjmiller]

Excellent point, Gardens.
What better argument for children, than that God became one…
He infinitely sanctified childhood.
If we cannot love children, then we cannot love the God Who became one for us.