CATHOLICS, Do You Know? . . .Latin Mass

[Windmill]

In regards to Gregorian chant, pipe organ, and Latin having a “pride of place” or “being especially suited to the Roman Rite”, it comes down to this: is this pride of place de facto or de jure? In most places, they will say something like this, “Oh gregorian chant is wonderful and has a place as the crown jewel of Mass music, but it is not something we can do here.” What they are doing is paying lip service to chant’s “pride of place”, but if you were to stumble into the parish on any given Sunday, you’d be hard pressed to actually see its pride of place. This is a simple de jure “pride of place” that, in reality, has no impact on weekly parochial life.

Latin is coming back…

Everything old is new again

P.S. That’s not me on the blog

 

[rlg94086]

Nice video…

We are planning our Corpus Christi procession through the city right now, and one of those pictures reminded me of that. We didn’t live here the last two years when the parish did this, but I can’t hardly wait to participate and see our neighbors looking out their windows saying “what are those crazy Catholics doing now?” Last year they had 300 people in the procession, and we are hoping for a much larger group this year.

In regards to Gregorian chant, pipe organ, and Latin having a “pride of place” or “being especially suited to the Roman Rite”, it comes down to this: is this pride of place de facto or de jure? In most places, they will say something like this, “Oh gregorian chant is wonderful and has a place as the crown jewel of Mass music, but it is not something we can do here.” What they are doing is paying lip service to chant’s “pride of place”, but if you were to stumble into the parish on any given Sunday, you’d be hard pressed to actually see its pride of place. This is a simple de jure “pride of place” that, in reality, has no impact on weekly parochial life.

Latin is coming back…

Everything old is new again

P.S. That’s not me on the blog

 

[paramedicgirl]

Nice video…

We are planning our Corpus Christi procession through the city right now, and one of those pictures reminded me of that. We didn’t live here the last two years when the parish did this, but I can’t hardly wait to participate and see our neighbors looking out their windows saying “what are those crazy Catholics doing now?” Last year they had 300 people in the procession, and we are hoping for a much larger group this year.

Here’s a video you might want to watch called “God in the Streets of New York.” It’s a vocations video, and they do a Eucharistic procession through the streets of NY. It’s really beautiful.

 

[KeithL]

Ummm…disobedience and innovations???

Hmm

 

[KeithL]

You noticed that, huh?

I guess “preserved” can mean anything from actually used to put away as an ancient artifact to be carefully reviewed by experts in an academic setting. That distinction is apparently left to “competent territorial ecclesiastical authority.”

That leaves us to conclude, by the widespread demise of the actual use and knowledge of Latin, that the “steps” taken to make sure the faithful can say or sing their parts means that the preserved Latin in books and other recordings are not destroyed.

Otherwise one would have to conclude that the Bishops and clergy have knowingly disregarded the actual decrees of VII - and we know that wouldn’t happen.

 

[KeithL]

One wonders how the ICEL missed that part.

Or maybe it was job security. The recent translation still has the consecration wrong. (And please, let’s not go down that invalid road again.)

Guess they did…lol

 

[KeithL]

Yesterday I watched a full Mass in Latin,with no English at all,for the first time.But it was done by SSPX…I didnt really care for it,I mean it was nice and all,but unless I understood Latin fully,I could see how some would not want it to return…Is the 1962 Tridentine Mass done in all Latin?
Think I would prefer the type that has Latin for the Liturgy,Prayers,etc,but with the homily and announcements in the vernacular…But thats just me.

IHS
Keith

 

[Windmill]

Keith,

That’s actually the type of Mass my schola sings in every year at a local parish. It’s a Vatican II Latin Mass with homily, intercessions in English. The rest in Latin.

My hope is that these will become more and more frequent. Though there are inherent differences between the Tridentine Mass and the Pauline Mass, I believe that many would give the Pauline Mass a fair shake if more traditional elements were used in it (as Sacrasanctam Consillium called for).

 

[rlg94086]

Our Latin Pauline Mass is now weekly

Interesting to note - from what I understand this is actually **more **difficult than a TLM, correct? To learn to say/chant/sing all of the prayers in Latin in a dialogue Mass sounds more difficult to me than following along in a missalette during a TLM.

I was discussing this with a friend of mine last night who has no interest in learning Latin, and therefore said she wouldn’t be interested in a TLM.

Keith,

That’s actually the type of Mass my schola sings in every year at a local parish. It’s a Vatican II Latin Mass with homily, intercessions in English. The rest in Latin.

My hope is that these will become more and more frequent. Though there are inherent differences between the Tridentine Mass and the Pauline Mass, I believe that many would give the Pauline Mass a fair shake if more traditional elements were used in it (as Sacrasanctam Consillium called for).

 

[BobP123]

Yesterday I watched a full Mass in Latin,with no English at all,for the first time.

On YouTube or in person?

But it was done by SSPX…I didnt really care for it,]

You didn’t care because it was done by SSPX? Or were just confused? And did it contain a homily?

I mean it was nice and all,but unless I understood Latin fully,I could see how some would not want it to return…

And why would you or someone else need to understand the Latin FULLY? Does everyone understand the ICEL Mass FULLY?

Is the 1962 Tridentine Mass done in all Latin?

With some Greek and Hebrew as well.

Think I would prefer the type that has Latin for the Liturgy,Prayers,etc,but with the homily and announcements in the vernacular…But thats just me.

That would follow Vatican II guidelines and is normally what you get at a TLM. No problem.

 

[BobP123]

Though there are inherent differences between the Tridentine Mass and the Pauline Mass, I believe that many would give the Pauline Mass a fair shake if more traditional elements were used in it (as Sacrasanctam Consillium called for).

As well as better conformity to the original Latin text. Not to mention no required hand-holding in Church either.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I have a far different perspective. I made my First Communion and my Confirmation before Vatican II. I was an altar boy both before and after V II. I didn’t have a missalette. I had my “little” St. Joseph Missal which I got when I made my First Communion in 1958 and my “big” St. Joseph Missal which I got when I was confirmed in 1963.

After V II during the transition to the NO, the Mass was pretty much as it was before V II but there was a whole lot more response from the congregation. The Gloria was in Latin and the people either sang, chanted, or recited it in Latin.

All of the liturgical responses we normally say today in English were in Latin. I remember reciting the Nicene Creed in Latin and in English right after the homily. The Preface was chanted in Latin, we chanted the Sanctus in Latin. The Ordinary was what is now Eucharistic Prayer I. We chanted the Pater Noster and the Agnus Dei in Latin.

We’re acting like this is something cutting edge and new when the reality is that there is a whole slew of us baby boomer types for which a return to the Mass of our childhood is not too big a thing to grasp. I’m only 55 and I know there are folks a lot older than me who experienced the same thing.

The 300 lb gorilla which everyone is busy ignoring is not a question of Latin or English but rather a question of reverence? I drive 25 miles to attend a reverent NO which is equivalent to those Masses which I experienced when I was a child.

I’m not going to knock my local parish which is 5 miles away nor am I going to subject myself to what goes on there. This is why I drive 25 miles. It is, however, a crying shame that Catholic orthodoxy is such that someone should have to drive 25 miles to find a parish in which one is not subject to all of the liturgical abuses one sees today.

Somehow, the baby got thrown out with the bathwater 40+ years ago. Some of us remember the baby.

 

[BobP123]

I remember reciting the Nicene Creed in Latin and in English right after the homily.

You’re one up on me. To this day I never did learn the Creed in English.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Yep, that’s because it is so seldomly recited. Used to be always recited with everyone genuflecting at “and was made man” or “et homo factus est”.

 

[rlg94086]

I know the world stopped with the Baby Boomers , but there are an awful lot of us who were born during or after Vatican II (I’m 41). When I converted to Catholicism as an adult, I had no idea there was a more reverent choice or a Latin Mass. In fact, since it was in a liberal part of California, I thought “cafeteria” Catholicism, folk music with an overhead, and the new liturgical dancers they introduced at the time was the norm. Most of my peers (wife, friends) who grew up Catholic, did so post-VII. They have not experienced a Latin Mass, and they have a lot of concerns/trepidations about Latin.

For me it’s been a continuous journey from my confirmation in 1990 to becoming more orthodox in my understanding of our faith to now being introduced to Latin in a much more reverent parish…soon the TLM. For those born-and-raised Catholic, there is a serious divergance of experience. Those in my age group are being challenged similarly to those of the “Great Generation” who were upset with the changes to the Mass post-VII, only not as dramatically (both the TLM and the Pauline Mass will be available). Of course, there is going to be resistance to learning Latin.

It’s all a matter of viewpoint. I pray that with the universal indult, many of my peers will open their minds and join me on my journey toward the Traditional Latin Mass or a more reverent version of the Pauline Mass. Of course, that was probably also the hope of the post-Vatican II liturgists, right?

I have a far different perspective. I made my First Communion and my Confirmation before Vatican II. I was an altar boy both before and after V II. I didn’t have a missalette. I had my “little” St. Joseph Missal which I got when I made my First Communion in 1958 and my “big” St. Joseph Missal which I got when I was confirmed in 1963.

After V II during the transition to the NO, the Mass was pretty much as it was before V II but there was a whole lot more response from the congregation. The Gloria was in Latin and the people either sang, chanted, or recited it in Latin.

All of the liturgical responses we normally say today in English were in Latin. I remember reciting the Nicene Creed in Latin and in English right after the homily. The Preface was chanted in Latin, we chanted the Sanctus in Latin. The Ordinary was what is now Eucharistic Prayer I. We chanted the Pater Noster and the Agnus Dei in Latin.

We’re acting like this is something cutting edge and new when the reality is that there is a whole slew of us baby boomer types for which a return to the Mass of our childhood is not too big a thing to grasp. I’m only 55 and I know there are folks a lot older than me who experienced the same thing.

The 300 lb gorilla which everyone is busy ignoring is not a question of Latin or English but rather a question of reverence? I drive 25 miles to attend a reverent NO which is equivalent to those Masses which I experienced when I was a child.

I’m not going to knock my local parish which is 5 miles away nor am I going to subject myself to what goes on there. This is why I drive 25 miles. It is, however, a crying shame that Catholic orthodoxy is such that someone should have to drive 25 miles to find a parish in which one is not subject to all of the liturgical abuses one sees today.

Somehow, the baby got thrown out with the bathwater 40+ years ago. Some of us remember the baby.

 

[mary_bobo]

I have a far different perspective. I made my First Communion and my Confirmation before Vatican II. I was an altar boy both before and after V II. I didn’t have a missalette. I had my “little” St. Joseph Missal which I got when I made my First Communion in 1958 and my “big” St. Joseph Missal which I got when I was confirmed in 1963.

After V II during the transition to the NO, the Mass was pretty much as it was before V II but there was a whole lot more response from the congregation. The Gloria was in Latin and the people either sang, chanted, or recited it in Latin.

All of the liturgical responses we normally say today in English were in Latin. I remember reciting the Nicene Creed in Latin and in English right after the homily. The Preface was chanted in Latin, we chanted the Sanctus in Latin. The Ordinary was what is now Eucharistic Prayer I. We chanted the Pater Noster and the Agnus Dei in Latin.

We’re acting like this is something cutting edge and new when the reality is that there is a whole slew of us baby boomer types for which a return to the Mass of our childhood is not too big a thing to grasp. I’m only 55 and I know there are folks a lot older than me who experienced the same thing.

The 300 lb gorilla which everyone is busy ignoring is not a question of Latin or English but rather a question of reverence? I drive 25 miles to attend a reverent NO which is equivalent to those Masses which I experienced when I was a child.

I’m not going to knock my local parish which is 5 miles away nor am I going to subject myself to what goes on there. This is why I drive 25 miles. It is, however, a crying shame that Catholic orthodoxy is such that someone should have to drive 25 miles to find a parish in which one is not subject to all of the liturgical abuses one sees today.

Somehow, the baby got thrown out with the bathwater 40+ years ago. Some of us remember the baby.

The baby I remember was some prior to your memory. I received my First Communion in 1944. All the mass was in Latin and we just learned it, no classes, no help, no nothing. When I got to high school I was in the choir and the parts of the mass (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus and Agnus Dei) were all in Latin. Some how we knew what it meant. And you are right about the reverence.

I am not knocking the NO for anyone who prefers it, I just wish we had a choice without having to travel so far.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Point taken about those who were born and raised or converted after V II. On the other hand, there’s enough of us old folks left who can easily aid those who have never attended a Latin Mass.

My kids got some exposure at our cathedral parish where I am a member of the choir. They have heard all of the sequences sung in Latin. During Lent, we all sing the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei in Latin.

If I had a reverent NO like those on EWTN, I wouldn’t have to drive 25 miles downtown. I welcome a return to the reverence I experienced as a child. I want to go into Mass on Sunday, genuflect, kneel and pray before Mass. I don’t want to be greeted nor do I want some people older than me talking about Preparation H in the vestibule of the church - No, I am not making that up. Nor do I want greeters nor do I want to introduce myself to the people around me or, heaven forbid, have to hold hands and engage in the wave at the Lord’s Prayer. None of that stuff existed in the years immediately following V II. It’s all made up. It is not part of sacred tradition.

I support the Latin Mass for its reverence. I’d be perfectly happy with a reverent NO unfortunately one has to seek and find that which should be universal.

 

[rlg94086]

Point taken about those who were born and raised or converted after V II. On the other hand, there’s enough of us old folks left who can easily aid those who have never attended a Latin Mass.

My kids got some exposure at our cathedral parish where I am a member of the choir. They have heard all of the sequences sung in Latin. During Lent, we all sing the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei in Latin.

If I had a reverent NO like those on EWTN, I wouldn’t have to drive 25 miles downtown. I welcome a return to the reverence I experienced as a child. I want to go into Mass on Sunday, genuflect, kneel and pray before Mass. I don’t want to be greeted nor do I want some people older than me talking about Preparation H in the vestibule of the church - No, I am not making that up. Nor do I want greeters nor do I want to introduce myself to the people around me or, heaven forbid, have to hold hands and engage in the wave at the Lord’s Prayer. None of that stuff existed in the years immediately following V II. It’s all made up. It is not part of sacred tradition.

I support the Latin Mass for its reverence. I’d be perfectly happy with a reverent NO unfortunately one has to seek and find that which should be universal.

Agreed 100%. As I have mentioned, our current parish’s orthodox approach was a real eye opener for me and my family. The first thing that struck me was the practically complete silence in the church when we entered. No one had to tell us to be quiet, because it was obviously the way things are. Additionally, there is a note on the innner doors (which are closed after Mass starts) that says you shall not enter until after the end of the 2nd reading if you are late, so as not to disturb others.

We also don’t hold hands during the Our Father/Pater Noster, so we certainly don’t do the wave (that was funny ). Add to that the increasing addition of Latin and reverent music (no folk Mass thank you very much), and you have a much different Mass than the ones we typically experience when we visit family in CA. On our last visit, the kids remarked on the differences and definitely prefer our new parish - though my oldest is complaining a bit about having to learn Latin.

My kid’s responses to the orthodoxy is what gives me hope. I hope they take well to the TLM at our parish, when the Motu Proprio is issued.

 

[Margita]

Latin and reverent music (no folk Mass thank you very much)

I have a question regarding the meaning of “folk mass.” I have seen it in some threads and it has left me pondering: would hymns composed in, say, the early 20th century or even after, be included in the category or “reverent music”? Is it the guitar-accompanied, rock-and-roll type music that you mean by “folk mass”? (You can give concrete examples, too - I get it that Gregorian would certainly be in the “reverent” category )

The reason why I ask is that the Hungarian expression for vernacular church songs, most of which are very, very old, dating back to the 17th-16th centuries and preserved intact, are actually called “folk songs for church.” I know most church songs in North-America are not as old as that, so I figure by “folk mass” you must be referring to vernacular lyrics written in ? ? century. Question is, where do you draw the line? Would you reject a 19th or 20th century vernacular hymn as “folk mass” stuff? Or would you only reject the above mentioned “hippie-style”?

(!Disclaimer: Serious question, no teasing, no debate, just a semantic issue for a non-native speaker!)

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is not about church music or other side issues. If you wish to discuss other topics, please start a new thread for each topic. Thank you.